podcasting 2.0 for March 11 2020, to Episode 77 Is that a
mini pub in your pockets? Alright, and just happy to see
me. Are you happy to be here at the board meeting of podcasting
2.0 Everything happening in podcast index.org, the podcast
namespace, and of course, all the creativity and the good
juice at podcast index dot social, special live board
meeting today. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas
Hill Country. And in Alabama, the man who edits SQL by hand my
friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. De Jones,
live board meeting. Live board meeting, baby. Yeah. This is
very exciting.
Yeah, the did anybody inform the secretary? Did people just start
streaming in she had no, it wasn't on the calendar.
That's pretty much the way it went down. So what we're talking
about is today we are live with the live tagging the RSS feed,
which means at least one podcast app, if you use it would have
notified you that the stream is live. And you can play this in
the app. And I believe there's also a chat in the app. Am I
correct?
Chat is supposed to be I think it's just an iframe. I'm
actually scared too scared to hit this live button because I'm
afraid it's gonna like come back on me and I'll start playing and
it's gonna freak me out because
my curio caster wasn't showing me the live items. So I just
want to I just want to go there it is. 77 live. Okay, I only
showed up so I just want to know, there it is. Oh, oh, wow,
this is trippy. Now we just boost myself just for good
measure. Okay.
Break the internet and stop it. Alright, so
this kind of works. It was very confusing. I was using sovereign
feeds to set up the all the trigger stuff, the live items.
And it was I was just just like, oh, what parameters do I need is
like, oh, a chat room. And then the story is just Oh, man. I
just I couldn't quite wrap my head around it, then Steven be
created. And I also couldn't find the live item tag. Like,
where is it? I guess at the bottom. I expected that to be at
the top for stupid reasons, I guess, in the just where it
shows up just physically in the feed. I wasn't expecting it
there. So I was like, I couldn't figure out what was being
output. He sent me an RSS feed. I uploaded that one then I did
the second one. myself
when we went live. So all by yourself.
Yes, Dave all by myself, I'm proud of me Come on this. If I
can't do it, who's gonna be able to do it? I'm low on the on the
wrong.
User friendly is not exactly how you would describe any, any of
this. Well, what at all?
What's cool, I mean, I like the idea of setting it in advance
and then publishing the feed. So you know, okay, we'll be live, I
think 1230. But then you have to do that, again, when you go
live. And that should just be a click, you know, it's like it
should know what to do. And I shouldn't have to go there and
create a new episode. Copy the old one. I mean, obviously, as
we as this matures, and it'll get better, it's just right now
is kind of like holy crap.
Honestly, the best part about this whole thing is that I can
look at curio caster and remember what the show number
is. And because that's a consistent problem with me.
Yeah.
Alright, man, how we have a good guest today, we should bring him
in pretty quickly. There's anything we need to discuss
before we get rolling. What are you working on? It seems like
you've been still doing some cleanup stuff.
While I've been working on the aggregator, so the, you know, we
talked last week a little bit about how the aggregator that we
brought into podcast index was the one from sort of the final
revision of the of the aggregator from Freedom
controller. Okay, so I took that, and it's, it's a two piece
as a two piece aggregators got a polar, a feed puller, and then a
feed parser. So that they can run parallel. And there's this
basically, it's two separate JavaScript, Node js scripts, and
one's called party time, which is the parser. The other one is
called aggravate, which is the polar, right? And so then you,
we took those, dropped them into podcast index code base, and
then modified the crap out of them to be to do the things that
we needed to do for for podcast index. Party time works fine.
It's, it's a little it's messy, because it was written as fast
as humanly possible. So it's, it's still messy but aggravate
is based on the old node request module, which has been
deprecated. Now,
in node node request module,
node j. S. They had Like a built in library for doing HTTP
requests now. Okay. And it's been it's been deprecated. Since
I think node 14, maybe in their own like, I think the current
long term stable is 16. Now, for node,
so it was time. Yeah,
I mean, it was creaky even I think they deprecated it because
it wasn't very reliable anyway, you know, as as, as a
as a systems admin, yourself, I mean, that. I know you do a lot
of customer facing stuff in your real job, but also just all the,
you know, a lot of back end. Is this like a never ending thing,
just all these upgrades? Is that just this is just Yes. I mean,
this is a determine your life to a degree when all that's coming,
and then I have to upgrade those three things, because they have
dependencies and all this stuff. Yep.
If you live and die by the EO by the AOL table, the end of life
chart from every software vendor?
Oh, yeah, that's published ahead of time. So you know, you know,
when when a new version is coming?
Yes. Like the most recent thing is in the day job is going
through and purging Microsoft SQL Server 2014 Out of
everything and upgrading, because that's about to go into
fly.
That sounds really fun. Oh, it's great. Yeah. Oh, boy.
It's a party. Let me tell you bring beer. No, it's yeah,
that's that got deprecated. And then it was never very reliable
to begin with, even when it was actually supported. And so I've
known for a while that I needed to rewrite this thing. And it's,
it's the simpler of the two. It's not
so simple. When you say rewrite, does that mean a whole code
rewrite? Or just Yes? scrapped from really? Yeah. Now, do you
already have these? I'm just curious about the process. No
one No one ever asked developers I guess numbnuts like me, so So
you have your your basic structure of the program? Are
you going to literally start line one new file? Or are you
going to take that structure and do some some adaptation copy
paste? Basically,
this one was pretty much cargo new project, just blank file
starting from scratch. Wow. That Because? Because it's not? It's
not super complicated. When this when this software is all said
and done? We're probably talking about Yeah, 1000 lines of code
or less? Oh, I
can hold that.
Why am I doing it?
handed over? I'll take care of it. Yeah. But
that, yeah, it's pretty much a straight, clean rewrite, there's
really no as there's no porting going on, because I don't like
the way that the olds dole thing was written anyway. And so what
it's going to do is it's going to, it's going to just accept
the current the current version of, of the polar, it, it does a
query on the database to get a batch of feeds, and then loads
them all up in a in, in a an asynchronous, it just fires them
all off asynchronously. Then as they fit as each one finishes
its job, it determines what happened with HTTP status code
was what that means. And then it updates the database
individually. So for every time the polar kicks off, there's
this flurry of database calls, okay. And what I want to do is
get rid of that, what I would like to do is do one, one,
select have a hope of n get a whole bunch of feed IDs based on
some criteria, load them up in a queue, and then have the polar
just grab all those feed IDs, and URLs, grab the feed IDs and
URLs from the queue fire everything off when and as they
finish write them to feed files then include the HTTP status
code and e Tag and last modified header in the feed file. This
and party time will come through and pick up those feed oh
right you told me about this yes yeah. Now what guys You had me
that polar and party time? I mean, it's like yeah, you
already had me there. So but this this will probably be this
will have an AOL itself this will this will be dead when pod
ping finally takes over.
Yeah, but that I'm hoping, selfishly, that that's not for a
while just so that I won't have to consider this a waste of my
time.
Well, I don't think it's ever a waste. But Oh god this
thing is fast. Yo, it is so fast. It's my how fast this is
for it is. Let's see. We're the last test I did last night was
about 1200 feet a minute in it.
Wow. And how many parallel processes is that?
It is their threads so they're not as threaded.
So 1200 threads in a minute, basically.
Yeah, that mean the way that they look is the request library
inside of rust is so good. It's it is so top notch.
Hey, Dave. How good is it?
Oh, it's so good that I had to get a get a drink afterwards.
ever smoked dinner?
No, it's fantastic because it looks like you can fire off 1000
feeds have it do its job. And the memory usage for the
process. Never goes above about 100 Meg's hmm it's it's that
good. I did 10,000 feeds the other day. A fire those off in
it. It got all 10,000 in about two minutes. 20 seconds. This
thing is this this? That's good. Yeah. And this is all on a file.
This is all on a $5 a month Linode with with a single CPU
with non dedicated shared CPU and only like a gig of RAM.
Right $5 Now but after this Amazon purchase, you know 15
Yeah, yeah, it'll go up. I'm sorry. aka my Yeah, you know,
it's interesting. I have not received a single boost from
anybody yet. I wonder why that is. And guess people don't care.
I see them talking about it.
Is it are these booths best to be showing up in the chat room?
They wouldn't know
but they would show up on the heli pad because I have the the
boosts monitor split so they would show up but I haven't seen
any and even the one that I sent earlier has and I wonder if
that's the the LNP locking again
LNP locking Yeah,
what if too many people are trying to boost at the same time
then it locks and it waits and does all kinds of stuff.
So I'm gonna try right now. Yeah.
I'm going to send a boost.
Yeah, well, I sent myself a boost. Now I know this illegal
in several states but still I self boosted and it didn't come
through and I was boosting from curio caster. Okay, yeah, I got
he got one. Who's a Dara? No. All right, Darrin Oh 10,034 sets
one more than comics through blogger. Thank you for your
courage. Yes, thank
you. No, he just says see Darrin just added himself. This is
proof that Darrin actually has sat in a wallet. He just never
he just never spins them. And he sent
it from breeze about that.
I'm gonna boost here.
Interesting. Interesting. Came in although the came in his
podcast in 2.0, episode 75
I just sent a boost. Okay. 100 I wonder if
that's an oh, you know, breeze is interesting because it's a
it's a full node and really has to be running for it to be able
to process payments. So if you just boost something and you
close the app, then it probably won't send that boosts and or I
guess booster Graham until much later. Oh, breeze doesn't
support live item? Of course. I'm sorry. What am I thinking?
So he Yeah, he just grabbed a random episode. Well, okay, why
don't we share some of this with our guests, Dave, since we're
going to be talking a lot about what's going on the most the
most recent developments that we've been working on for the
namespace and of course, all of that podcast index dot social,
anyone who already has an account can get send you an
invite to your preferences. So if anyone's looking for account
looking to join, we just had to shut that off because I was I
get these trending emails of what you know what what what is
trending on our Mastodon server somehow it knows this. Believe
me. That's it a bunch of political call. Yeah. All
political. Yeah. Welcome in. John Spurlock is here ladies and
gentlemen. Welcome to the board meeting, John.
Hey, nice to be here. Can you hear me?
Yeah, we hear you. Good. We can hear you. Yes. Yeah, we got you.
We got
siblings. You know, John.
I don't really even know. Your background.
See, internet?
Yes. Well, cuz I heard I heard you were on. Were you on pod
land recently? I think. Yeah. I
was on pod line last week. Yeah. And like how this this guy
has some history that I'm not aware of? And maybe others. I'd
love to know a little bit about how you came to podcasting to
promote what you were doing before?
Yeah, sure, sure. So I guess I've been doing software now for
over 20 years and a full time sort of capacity. So I still I
still like writing software. I still like making stuff. That's
kind of my MO. I worked at kind of a financial sort of
background for a little bit did some trading systems
integration. You know, Enterprise Architecture and
that's yummy. Yeah, exactly. You know, database stuff. I started
out there, optimizing query plans, that sort of thing. But
then I also did consulting with Java, Linux stuff. I always had
been doing that always been interested in the web. I
actually worked for Google for a few years working on Android. So
the operating system there is basically I think, what they
call it now as a full stack,
developer full stack. Plus, I guess, if you add Android onto
it,
yeah, I'm a generalist. I just like kind of like it all still.
And so what I decided is, you know, Google has this IP thing
where you can't really work on side projects, without them
being able to claim your IP.
Oh, wait a minute. So you do get first of all, you get your 20%
still the thing that they still do that 20 20% of your time, you
can do whatever you want.
Yeah, when I started there, they were still lip servicing that.
I figured that was that gone a long time ago. Yeah, exactly.
I can't bad mouth that though. Because they did allow me I
think for the span about six months, they let me do a project
that was like, totally unrelated. So they did do it.
But I think now it's a little different. I mean, they give you
200% of real time work to do this,
right. And then of course, all your all your bullet base belong
to us. So whatever you develop in that 20%, we own?
Exactly, yeah. And I've always done open source stuff on the
side. And I've always had ideas. And so what I mean, I'm in my
early 40s now, and I've never done the cliche, garage
startups, that type of thing. So not my garage. I'm in my, you
know, in the house, but I'm basically doing that now. So I
quit Google. And then I kind of, I always knew I do something in
podcasting. I've been, I've been listening to podcasts, and it's
like, literally the very beginning, Adam, I think I've
been following Dave, Dave Winer. And after extensive beginning, I
used to be really into point cast. I don't remember.
Oh, no, do do I remember point cast. I loved how the whole
office network just went down. The minute everyone's point cast
was updating. Yes. Yeah, it was that that was just for the, for
the young for the younger folks out there. Back in the day, we
actually use this thing called screensavers. I don't think
people use them anymore. We needed a screensaver because
your screen literally would be burned in and ruined. If you
didn't opt for toasters and fish flying around on your screen.
And it was Yeah, and it was actually a thing we would buy
screensavers you go to the store, you buy a box with the
fish I think I think I remember buying the screensaver fish
bought the toasters. And the fish in it was all floppy. It
was on floppy disk. Right? And you had to load it all up. And
then out also in Kansas think point cast. And it was like,
there's like a checkbox. And I think a lot of Dave whiners.
Inspiration was also he even called a checkbox news. You
could say, Okay, I want some sports. I want some finance. I
want some food recipes. And it would basically was just a, a
version of a, an early art. We didn't run an RSS as far as I
know. That was too early, probably just download whatever.
How did that work? Does anyone know? What the back end was?
I? I'm curious XML. That's the only thing. I'm sure it was XML.
Right?
Yeah. So it stuck it in. But then, you know, we had, we had
maybe, I don't know, like 40 or 50 people at the office, and we
had a T one line. You know, one megabit per second wishes, you
know, if you have that at home, you you're on the phone with
your cable company, to what's wrong, what's wrong with my
speed here? And so when everyone's point cast would
update invariably at the top of the hour. Everything shut down.
Yeah, it was classic. It was the right idea just kind of too
early from, you know, wiring and piping. Right. Right. Right. I
think definitely. Other idea. And I, you know, I've always
been interested in that kind of like real time breaking sort of
news. And RSS is like that. A lot of good podcasts are like
that, too. You know, they kind of like, try to get on top of,
you know, I guess it's the same transport but the same sort of
idea. Yeah. I've I've always been interested in the idea that
you can program media is so interesting to me.
Yeah. Well, and in hindsight, kind of thinking back to those
days. I think there was web blogs.com which, which would
take XML RPC Requests.
That was whiners thing, right. Yeah, that
that was his thing. And but you know, how interesting is it that
here we are 20 years later, and we're using pod ping, to let
people know that the feed is updated. It's the same problem
we're solving.
And the fact that it's still a feed is unbelievable to me. So I
think that's kind of cool. Actually, a lot of you know,
back with my kind of enterprise architecture background, and I
think even back with the feed, it's the RSS sort of committee
itself, right. Immediately the astronauts descended and we're
like, yeah, all right, Adam, right. We're gonna do this
right. We're gonna redo Yeah. Oh, my goodness, that was more
so this is Like an existence proof that would you call them
astral astronauts? Would you call them? Right architecture,
astral architecture.
We even had them guy as well.
No, but I mean, if you ever do any work with RSS, you are
taking on a world of pain, right? Dave knows this. Yes. And
I think what the atom guys were, they saw this immediately. And
they said, hey, what if we actually clean this up of it? It
would make developers lives easier. But I think what they
didn't realize is RSS was more about making the publishers life
easier.
Yes. And thank you for saying that. Because even though my, my
brain was fogging over looking at it, I know that I can look at
my RSS feed. And I know I can now stress because we're
starting in late and everything, I know that ultimately, I can
figure it out. And if, if push comes to shove, I can open it in
Notepad, and I can make a change. And that to me is from
the you're absolutely right. From the publishers perspective.
Perspective, that is key. And that that's one of the
successes, I believe,
well, we've been talking about this for a long time is that
when it comes to RSS, the issue, the issues with RSS really come
from it being loose, loosely specified. And those are its
strengths and his weaknesses. In both in both ways. Adam, Adam
was a fan as actually a fantastic idea is fantastic
improvement RSS and you know, if you could go roll time back and
sort of do things differently, you know, Adam, was the better
was the better format, but RSS, they, you know, here, RSS only
only defines, like in an item. It's like description and title.
Or it may even be just his title. I mean, like that, the
looseness of the of that specification are kind of It's
kind of insane. But But if you've been the good thing about
it, though, is if you've been through that whole thing before,
like if you've been through the world of of of a format war like
that, and you've seen which one, one and why at one, then it
informs the next time you start to get involved in a project
like podcasting 2.0 or something like that. You bring that
experience with you. And you're you're less of a hardliner
about, we have to do it this way we have to, because you realize
that it's not that that's not what makes the format when what
makes the format when is
porn it always porn always makes the format when?
Okay, yes. Okay. That's that's whatever law that is, you know,
the wiki? Yes, as Curry's law, there you go. But the really
what makes the format when is a combination of the spec being
being well done. And the politics of what go on with it.
There. You cannot separate those two things, right? Because just
having the best spec rarely is enough. You have to you have to
marry them two together.
That's why podcasting 2.0 is so great is that you guys are kind
of a nice, third party. Right? So even if someone came up with
these tags, I'm you've been over this before, but they have come
up with tags in the past, but it's if there's a company behind
it, other people look, look at that work kind of differently.
So it's great to have you guys kind of as a I don't know what
you want to call. It was poverty Alliance? Yeah.
Well, it's not you guys. John. It's all of us. It's exactly.
Our committee. It's not Yeah, we just do this.
But but but yeah, sure, Dave. Matt, the magic is in one thing.
And one thing only. And I've talked to many people about
this, and we've been approached many times, and is that we just
are not taking any money from anybody only money we'll take is
that as donated four out of appreciation for what the
project is. That's, that's what makes it work. And it also helps
when Alex gates, his text messages me at, you know,
midnight on a Tuesday, and says something like, man, I've got
this great idea. And he's lays it out. That's, you can only
have that sort of relationship, when there's not big when
there's not money involved. When when people do when there's note
when there's you start getting into all the other stuff, and it
just falls apart. Yeah, you know, it isn't
alignment of interests. I think I think more than anything, it's
kind of a lot of people had the same sort of ideas. Like when
you started this, I think that was about the time that Spotify
was getting off the ground. And I think a lot of people had the
same thought at the same time. And so I know that sure I turned
you guys, I think we kind of line up as far as kind of really
wanting the the way it has been to kind of keep going and I
don't think there's any guarantee that it will. I think
Apple has done a great job of kind of encoding it for now. But
due to kind of the concentration of things, it wouldn't be hard
for some of the bigger players to just specify another way of
doing things. And you know, have some bad meetings and then we've
kind of lost a lot of the stuff that we have today. So my whole
overall goal, if I have any goal is to just kind of maintain the
status quo of like, lots of apps, lots of hosts kind of a
dynamic, like system with a lot of players.
Do you want? I was just gonna ask one more thing. Do you have
a day job currently or just coast? Are you just coasting on
that Google stock?
Well, it's it's, it's been referred to
the coast has been downhill. Yes.
You know, it's about poverty, right? i What's the euphemism
I'm investing in the future? Oh, that's cool. I love that you
guys talk about your bills I spend about, I think about 500
bucks a month right now on all the backend. And I've been
seeing all this data come through because I, you know, I
look at all every single episode that comes out. And I saw a lot
of, you know, kind of cool stats, and I'm interested in
that sort of thing myself. But then I started publishing that,
as well. So that's kind of another thing I'm kind of doing
on the side is, you know, someone will throw out like, I
wonder how many, how many episodes use chapters, or how
pervasive chapters are? I'm like, I could actually tell you.
Yeah, so that's been kind of fun as well. So just to see it's
kind of nice. Being able to kind of work in a space where like,
things are still evolving. And there's still lots of, I think,
a lot of low hanging fruit. I think strategically, I'm
focusing on an app like a client app. I think that's like the
biggest hole. I think there's a lot of great hosts out there. So
I think I have some ideas in the hosting space as well. But I
think there's tons of great, like, all levels enterprise free
and everywhere in between. It's a flip case. Yeah, yeah,
exactly. So I think I'm kind of okay with where that is. But on
the app side, I don't know if you know, but Lipson has a as a
podcast. And every month they go through and kind of list out
what they see for the downloads wise from all the podcasts are
on their system. And they always, you know, they've gone
back many years now. And I've been looking at that. And they
used to break out like, okay, so Apple podcasts, as we're seeing
this many downloads from Apple podcasts. Spotify is obviously,
coming up, Google is coming up, but the independent like, so
everything other than Google and Apple, that share has been going
down consistently. And so that's what worries me, you know,
overcast is doing a great job out there. But it's iOS only.
But from from a philosophical standpoint, why? Why does that
overall market share matter?
Because of the what? Well, for one I see is this kind of like a
strategic thing. Again, if let's say only two apps are the
primary portal into podcasting, it makes it a lot easier for
them to just say, Okay, we're going to do another thing now.
Because then no matter what Apple does, I think anyway, I'm
the host would jump to do it. So if they said, Tomorrow, we're
going to do Jason feed, or something crazy like that. They
would, they would fall over themselves, the host to
implement it right away. So we're kind of it's limited by
the the clients to some extent, as far as where the innovation
happens,
here's, here's my view on that, because I think we get way too
hung up on leaderboards and percentages, and all of this.
The only way podcasting grows is through communities that are
promoting whatever it is that is going to rise to the top. And
sometimes it's a technological thing that boosts podcasting.
Often, its content. So podcasting was growing, maybe
five to 10%, a year bubbling under, it got pushed way down
once YouTube and Facebook and Twitter, and that was it was all
about social media. So there was no, there was really no ink at
all, for podcasting, although it was growing, but no mainstream
attention until cereal hit. And so my point being that you, you
can't market your way to the to the top of the of the apps, you
know, with, I don't think we're ever going to see apps as big as
Apple and Spotify, it will even out but it's it's all going to
happen in small pockets. The small pockets happen and grow
because the podcasters they want people to use that app, you
know, and that reason, some of them have it now. A lot of
Bitcoiners a lot of pioneers, you know, early or early
adopters were in a very, very early stage. Most of the apps
are just getting to where they're acceptable for people to
make a change or try something out. So I think we're just we're
just, we're a ways off. But this this, these these percentages,
it's like it's demoralizing. It doesn't matter. We I mean, look
at the features that some hosting companies are
implementing yet. It's not overnight and they're not all
falling over themselves, but a number of important ones are
doing it and supporting it. And because we're not falling over
over ourselves because Apple said we're going to do
something. We're doing it right.
But, you know, I think the YouTube, the YouTube talk that's
been going on for the last couple of weeks is kind of a, it
needs to be talked about because I don't trust those numbers.
Well, let me let me say, let me put it this way. If YouTube as a
podcast platform, you know, now they're, they're gonna do like
the keynote, somebody from YouTube's gonna do like the
keynote at Podcast Movement, and they're, they're making their,
their play into podcasting. And then I hear you keep hearing
these big numbers, like 40% of people listen to podcasts on
YouTube for medicine research and all this cuz it's just kind
of all in the in the podcast, industry news. And I've got real
problems with those numbers and how to interpret that, because,
well, I guess number one is, if that's true, if it's true that
you that 40% of people listen to podcasts on YouTube, then why is
YouTube making this big play of getting into podcasting? That
sounds like they already are? Why are they going to pay? Pay
create, oh, I can answer that $50,000,
I can give you the answer and give you the answer no, that no,
they're saying something different. To saying we want you
to make video versions of your podcast is very different. And
so they're not. They're not necessarily asking for a whole
bunch of people with mics and headsets and studios. They're
looking for more, they're trying to build a library of hits.
That's what all these people do. That's what Spotify is doing is
what Google is doing. Amazon will do their own version.
Apple's the only one that just wants people to use their
subscription service. I don't think they care much about
anything else. But these people this is all content plays, has
nothing to do with podcasts. I couldn't give a shit about what
we're doing.
No, I agree with that. I guess my problem is with the numbers
and what that means to the industry, because these numbers
are just reports.
Yeah, but but they're just reported meaningless. I think my
point is, it's meaningless. It doesn't really matter, does it?
Well, if
you have 40, here's, here's the way like, here's the way James
explained, explains it. He says, Okay, if if, if the survey if
you ask somebody where they listen to podcasts, and they
tell you YouTube, well, then it doesn't matter, that YouTube is
not really what we consider a podcast when it matters, that
they think that it is a podcast, so therefore, it's a podcast.
Now, I don't want I'm not interested in the debate about
what is a podcast. But what I know is that those numbers are
being reported to the podcast industry, as podcasts. And it's
like, it's it's like taking, it's like asking somebody if
they go if they if they watch movies, but not distinguishing
between the theater, and and television. You if you're taking
these numbers and saying okay, 30% of you're absolutely
right, you're absolutely right. It is almost apples to oranges.
It misinforms the podcast industry about what actually
happens. Like France, for instance, you have if somebody
thinks PewDiePie is a podcast, and they say, Oh yeah, I listen
to I listen to podcasts on YouTube, yes. Where I listened
in in there. And the whole time in their mind. They're thinking
that this video, that this video channel, they watch all the time
is a quote unquote, podcast, that's fine for that. But then
if you take that information and go tell the podcast industry, in
the traditional podcast industry, that Look here, 40% of
people listen to podcasts on YouTube. And they're like, uh,
oh, I don't know what to do about that. Well, yeah, you
don't know what to do about it, because it's not actually
accurate. with it. Okay, that's my issue. Yeah.
Just so you know, since day one on podcasting, the argument of
where people listen, and what is then considered a podcast has
been raging. And to this day, there are people that say, Dude,
I was putting my mic my radio shows on the internet. 1983 I
was the first podcaster. Yeah. Yeah, that argument is boring.
What is integral was interesting to me about all the numbers that
I've heard reported and I and as you know, I really don't put
much I don't care. It's We're building something. We've got
5000 podcasts that are using it, probably 1000 of those are
really using it actively and are starting to hone their pitch for
value for value. But more importantly, the authoring tools
are starting to come online slow, but they're coming online
and we've let own the All we've done is lead by example. That
number that I found most interesting that something we
can affect is women. A large percentage of women listen to a
podcast on the podcast website. I've seen this myself. I've seen
this myself. That's a humongous option. tunity for embedded
players, that's an option an embedded player. That is, I
mean, we everyone, all of our apps, I think almost all of them
have at least some web version. And we have some cool sharing
widgets. But think about players and what we can do with the with
the namespace tags, etc, there to get people to use an app. But
even then, I mean, it's, is it invalid to have someone use the
curio caster embedded player with a wallet with everything
there? Versus on the curio? caster.com? PWA?
No, no, no,
I think the way I think about it is that YouTube is kind of a
good Northstar. As far as user experience, I think in the
future, let's say video was not that expensive. Back in the day,
there probably would be five or six youtubes. But they kind of
you know, Google took a massive hit their bandwidth bill is just
insane. But now we're getting to the point where you could see
almost building a YouTube on a lot of the newer edge
technologies that are out there. There's, there's, I think
there's gonna be some interesting startups that kind
of blend what we're doing with podcasting, and then also
bringing that to video in the future.
Alex is doing it by himself. Yeah, yeah.
But I think you'll see kind of larger companies start to do
this. And then the, but they
wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry to interrupt. You said you see
larger companies starting to do this, just explain what this is.
Again,
I think building, for example, the, the podcast hosts don't
have apps right now. So if they come out with a new feature,
they're kind of reliant on the app side to kind of build
everything to, to expose that. But you can imagine that they
would build apps that like can do audio, and then potentially
video as well for their customers, just because they
know that they can make a great experience for their for their
customers. Yeah, well, so I could, I could see like, and
again, I think just the experience is what we should
look at YouTube for inspiration from and honestly over the what
was it over? I think New Years, I think podcast was like, you
know why? One of one of these new podcast features would be
really compelling for, you know, an average podcast listener to
actually switch apps like they would actually cause them to
switch. Here's
a strike. Here's, here's a striking thought. Because it
just struck me. Should we maybe we should consider redefining
what we're building? Should it only be apps that are an app
stores? Should it be? Should they always look the way they
look? I don't think so I don't think so either. I mean,
creatively, the features have been driven by the app
developers 100%. That's the and of course, by the by creators
who are using those elements and asking their tool, suppliers,
which is the hosting companies to implement that, so they can
use it, that that's kind of that's how the demand works, and
then how that's how stuff gets in there. There's not a lot of
push coming from the hosting companies in that regard.
But we'll see a blend though, because you're gonna see
services that kind of use a lot of the data that were like
transcripts is a perfect example. That's sort of
interesting, from just a straight kind of user point of
view, it'll be useful to some people. But that is a wealth of
information that services are going to be able to create, like
amazing search experiences for, for example. So I think you're
gonna see a lot of just web services kind of read these days
to state as well,
we're in agreement, what I'm saying is, we need the creative,
we need to get our heads out of our asses as to what a podcast
app is, and what people really want to work in on it. If women
if women, if for women predominantly are using a player
on a web page, which is pretty sad, if they use and I know
they're using it on on some of my shows, it's just a simple,
you know, mp3 players or nothing. Why wouldn't we spend
the same benefits whether it's an app or not probably more,
even to some degree, we can build into those web pages, and
we should be we should be going where people want to be and I
think we're a little too hung up on religion, and that, you know,
oh, Apple, okay. You know, it's like It's nonsensical numbers. I
don't have a
problem with podcast as a term either. I think that's fine to
kind of, even though it's kind of a horrible name. It's kind of
like it right now. everyone kind of knows it is it's the non
mainstream sort of media look, delivery system. And so I think
people no matter what the apps end up looking like, and I think
like you said, I agree there's going to be 1000s of different
types of apps. I think the notion of podcasts as the
overall term for this is still useful.
Yeah, I think what matters is that the the delay the source of
the delivery, and the end point where it's delivered to maintain
decentralization What What now how you know how that looks,
whether or not you're serving, serving it out of object
storage, or off servers, or off IPFS on the back end, or whether
or not you're consuming it with a mobile app, or a website or a
PWA, or an embedded player on the on the edge. I don't think
either one of those things really matter as long as they
stay that way, as long as they stay decentralized. But that's
my problem with that's my problem with with the whole
YouTube conversation, like Chris Fisher on brought a clip of
Chris Fisher, talking about this very thing on the latest episode
of coder radio. And he's talking about his about what he sees
going on in the industry. If you want to play that clip,
that's I've been feeling the same way on the in the podcast
space, today, it came out that YouTube is offering like
$50,000, to certain podcasters to take their audio only podcast
and make it a video podcast. And then you know, start using their
ads and stuff like that. And you know, you watch what Spotify is
doing. You watch what Apple is doing. You see what Lipson
trying to do with suppressing ad prices. And YouTube is trying to
do by taking over podcasting and I start thinking to myself, How
the hell am I gonna be able to stay independent for the next
five years, it's getting really, really centralized out there.
For some, like the rumors as much as $300,000, the offers,
which I still find ridiculous $50,000 Couldn't even convert a
single one of our podcast videos, think about it. That
doesn't even pay for a year of a video editor, not to mention
camera equipment, lighting, sets, editing equipment, I mean,
give me a break. $50,000 is spent in one weekend buying the
gear? Well, that makes no sense. Yeah, but they're trying to
incentivize a centralization of podcasters. Because once you go
into the YouTube platform, you create content for the
algorithm. And you you have to create content that's also
appealing to the ad bot because it's it's all an auction system
behind the scenes. And the auction system has preferences,
it looks for brands save content, and brand save content
is not only the type of things that you cover, but it's the
genre of you that you cover as well. I look at independent
podcast operations. And I just think, I don't even know if most
of them are going to make it the next couple of years. I think
it's really, it's really bleak out there.
Alright, I'm gonna take this in reverse order. First of all, the
only reason this is a news is because there's money involved.
Whenever there's money, and there's free money, people
always get all money, money, money. And there's always all
kinds of thinking that goes along, and there's feelings and
shit that happens. Whereas 99% of all podcasters probably will
never make or should make any money. The bigger travesty here
is not people using YouTube or whatever to listen to podcast,
the travesty is that creators put it there. If you want to
create a community that is profitable, both on a creative
and business level, you need to control that community. That's
the bottom line. I don't care if if you're using if you're
streaming live with with any tube and using curio caster, you
still need to have control over your community, which is what
we're doing and what we're building. People are realizing,
gee, you know, it's not such a great deal, there will always be
a whole bunch of fools who go the same who go to the major
labels, that's not going to end anytime soon. The people always
follow the money and they think that where the money is, is
where the audience is, but you have no connection when you have
to go to all these different places. You really don't own
your audience, you and when by own I mean you don't have them
in a place like no agenda has, that we've never done any any
kind of marketing or any or been put on other we've In fact, we
refuse to be put on Spotify. But we did put that up on Mastodon
server.
What What concerns me about about YouTube getting into this,
and I don't disagree with what you're what you're saying. I
guess from a technology standpoint, I think that, John,
you know, what you were saying earlier is that if a whole bunch
of cabal of huge tech got together and wanted to reformat
the system, they they could probably do it and this is this
is my concern is the decentralization if it gets
under attack from a big player like YouTube, and it comes in
from the sort of comes in through the back door where Oh,
YouTube is getting into podcasting. Well, yeah, but then
what is the net result of that is the net result of that it is
going to be to destroy everybody else's business. And in take
away this precious
but how I don't I don't understand how I fail to see how
seems like there's a lot of fear, YouTube's going to come in
and they're going to stomp Everybody, that's a big
presumption. I, I really, I'm not so sure that's true.
And also having done a tour of duty in one of these places as
well.
As Oh, like anybody else. Exactly. And
the one thing that actually really that they'll spend their
time in the shower thinking about and, you know, neglect
their revenue per user. No, it's competition actually.
Interesting. They could not especially tech people, I think
they really cannot stand another tech company coming out with
another product that they're like, Oh, we could have built
this. And they will copy it, they'll spend all of their I
mean, look at what Google did with Google Plus. So I think
what we're doing is exactly correct. And that is kind of
like showing away, hey, this is a, this is an innovative feature
that all of these podcast apps are going to find useful. No
matter if it's a traditional client app or service, I think
you guys have done a really good job of kind of keeping the
features at an abstract level. So it's like, here's how to
represent value, here's how to represent, you know, we're
talking about comments. And all these things are kind of like
they're going to be structured data that's broadly applicable
to any of these apps. And again,
and it creates an ecosystem longer term of tool providers.
And you know, I use Well, I don't I use hyper captcha, I use
that with Dred Scott. And he does the chapters and, and he
gets 10% of some 5% of the of the of every single show I'm
involved in, through the through the value blog split. And we
need lots more of these types of, of tools and services to
come online. And some of those will eventually be folded into,
or purchased by hosting companies. I mean, this is, this
is not something that you can measure, report to report, you
know, and even to be honest, also, these even though I hear
we come out smelling really good. I don't like report cards.
I don't you know, I just I just want to see what people are
actually doing and using? And if, if, why are they using
YouTube, I'll tell you, here's what I heard the most. It's on
my YouTube app faster than it's on my podcast app. And they're
not watching. They're just using the app so they can keep it
closed and listen to it. It's the same as hitting play on a
web page. If people continue to upload to web pages like
YouTube, then people are going to listen to their podcast over
on YouTube. If you're not missing out, you know, yeah,
maybe some programmatic algo thing that you're but did
podcast discovery, it's not how podcasts are discovered is word
of mouth. It's that's how podcasts grow, not through any
other mechanism. It's just a different beast. But if people
want to listen to it on a web page, let's make a great
experience. Doesn't matter if it's on a web page or or in an
app, it's the same thing.
Well, that's probably the other thing that podcasting as a as a
technology. And as a platform has that other platforms do not,
which is the pace of innovation and how fast we can change
things. Because like I had a fantastic call, did a zoom call
with some guys out of Australia. This past week, I think it was
like maybe Wednesday or Tuesday. And it's an app that they've
it's on the app stores on the iOS App Store is called visie
vs. Easy, why? They just released it all. And they're
waiting for it to be released on Android. And it's sort of this,
this interesting mix this interesting hybrid thing where
they've got a they've got a back end platform web based platform
where you can go like claim your podcast public. And when you
publish your episode, you can then go through an ad these
chapter markers with affiliate links and all bunch of stuff is
basically like these hypercharged chapter. Thanks
very similar to what I think Benjamin Bellamy was wanting
with podcast recommendations tag to be able to sort of like
deliver all kinds of interesting in points to the listeners
through chapters. And then they've gotten in, they've got
an app that goes with it to show their sort of enriched chapter
content. And, you know, they said, Well, you know, one of
their goals is to do integrations with this host
hosting companies in the future and be able to, to take chapters
in suck them in and then add this, this, this content to it.
So I mean, like things like that are coming on board. And that's
something like you can't write plugins for YouTube. You can't
extend these arguments at all. And the ability to take to take
an idea and build on it and make it better. Is is maybe the
killer feature of podcasting.
But look at look at the where the power is the power is with
the developers. The power is with the creators. That's the
bottom line. They literally paying people to come to their
sorry as platform doesn't gotta say this guy. I mean, you know,
we're not paying anybody to come and use podcasting 2.0. So this
fear this and this constant reporting about the job, the
percentages and and oh my god, it's so boring. It's just
boring. I don't care. I really don't it's not it's not it's not
important. There will never be a king of all media. It's just
it's too fragmented. It's going to be even more fragmented.
We're seeing newspapers, and television and radio in the
traditional sense. And I know that I'll get pushed back
because yes, there's a trillion dollars in advertising still
being made in radio, but it is dying slowly, is dying, and we
are rocketing up. And the same goes for podcasting. 1.0. You
know, it's coming.
But you mentioned payment. And I think, I think I can, I'll put
up my more conspiracy theories on this podcast, because I don't
know that people listen to it. But if I think one of the more
interesting things, if you ever get value to value or value for
value working? Is it going in reverse? I think I've had an
early streaming app on Android, you get to see like how people
actually use your app, and what is important to people. And I
think it's important, or I think what I found was really
interesting is that people are extremely price sensitive. And
people will go through all sorts of hoops to like not pay for
stuff. And so I think, I think the idea of paying listeners as
a as a as a kind of incentive to come over to your to it like
another app or something like that is actually pretty
compelling. I know. Google, for example, would probably pay
people to log in and search if they could, but there's just no
mechanism exists. I had to have everyone who have wallets, I
think the whole idea of kind of like, Hey, here's a way to
market that doesn't penalize the listener and actually add some
value to the listener. I think that could be really
interesting.
I disagree. And that's only recently that I've thought about
this, then we I think we're talking with Roy from breeze
about it. And I think when you pay people to come in and use
your stuff, and in this case, you're not saying Come listen to
Joe Rogan on on curio cast, you're saying come use curio
caster, I don't think that's the way it works.
No, it'd be more more like marketing, right? Where it's
like, instead of paying overcast to show something, you would
say, Hey, you're gonna feel good about listening to this, because
you're gonna get some, I don't know, it's kind of like play to
pay games, almost. But I do agree. You don't want to bring
in people just for that
you're gonna get you're gonna get Yeah. I don't like it as a
marketing tactic to buy customers in that manner.
Because I think particularly if you're giving people money, the
same people will come and get free money.
It's like, what was that old search engine, there was an old
search engine that would pay you to search I think was like x 12
or something like that way back like.com era? I think they just
the payment system doesn't really allow for it now, where
if you guys figure out payments, then I think that'll be well.
What part have we not figured out?
Well, the going the other way again, and more kind of like,
you know, it's got to be a little easier than it is now.
Oh, of course, of course, it's got to be easier than we are in.
I mean, we're we're having arguments about channel fees,
which will be meeting Nolan void in a year from now. This is this
is going incredibly fast.
Yeah. And it's really exciting to because you see everything.
It's kind of cool, because everything is coming together at
the right time. You know, lightning is kind of well, not a
lot different places other than podcasting, not,
not just that, but people are realizing they're getting
screwed by pig tech is my new one. Pig tech is the exact
they're getting screwed by pig tech. D platform. They're deep
platforming countries now. I mean, people are are aware of
this. They're awake, they're starting to make different
choices.
Well, if only there was some sort of federated version of
Twitter that we could kind of build on.
Could we put that into the app screen? Could we put that into
the apps for comments that everybody could see no matter
what, what that was a great idea. And it could work even on
and it could even work in a in an embedded player on a web
page. What a grand idea. Do you have any thoughts about that
John Spurlock?
I want to hear about No, no. I want to hear about the format
war between lightning comments and activity pub. This is
clearly going to be afraid
of losing losing this war. Who's in this war?
Did you listen to pod land? I haven't heard. I haven't. I have
some thoughts on this. And I
didn't get it. Tell me tell me what the premise was because I
didn't I didn't hear this yet. Like, go
ahead. Well, basically, it's that we have to comment systems,
right? Nominally, we have booster grams, which kind of go
over the Lightning Network. And then we're talking about kind of
more general like Twitter type comments for each episode and
thinking was I think, hey, now developers have to support both.
But I responded to Oscar on his GitHub thing. And I think
actually what he's doing is really good in that we need some
sort of way of reading these lightning comments right now, if
I'm an app, I can't read booster grams. So that's a problem. And
so I think tools like Halla pad will is one way of solving them.
But I do think it's worth thinking about how to expose
that in some sort of JSON formatted way. So I think that
protocol that he's come up with is actually might be a really
good starting point for how to do that. But how I see that is
it's basically he's coming up with a protocol. So it's almost
like he's coming up with a protocol that we could slot in,
as a social interact platform, along with any other social
interact platforms that you have for that episode. So what I was
seeing is that you could have something like, here's where to
go for activity pub comments for this episode. And here's where
to go for lightning comments. And it's a way to get people not
exclusively into one or the other. So it kind of like lets
people go into lightning gradually. So to me, I think
it's like people forget that the social interact tag is like not
exclusive. It says, well, here's where to go on Twitter for this
episode, right? Here's where to go on the fediverse for this
episode, and I think it's really important to say, here's where
to go to get the booster grams for this episode, which right
now is impossible. But what's cool about what Benjamin has
done is that he's created a tag that will basically work for
that. You can specify, you know, one or more kind of platforms
for each episode. So
let me let me just say something about the publishing of booster
grams, because, you know, we've pioneered the value for value
model. And the reason you have a booster gram in the value for
value model, initially, and it's open for interpretation, is the
feedback loop. Which is okay, I'd like you to support the
show, whatever it's worth to you, that comes back. And then
the intent the way it's been working, there may be other ways
to do it. But the way it's been working, has, then you read out
the message. And we like no agenda, we don't publish all
messages. And we publish zero those messages, we tell
everybody, and we may, we may skip around and read through it
or, you know, sometimes there's no message which is, you know,
with booster rams is is more rare. I'm not necessarily sure
that that the future of booster grams is to have them published
everywhere. In fact, I think it detracts from what you can
actually do with value for value.
And they may be I may not be encapsulating your feelings on
this job. But I think, I think, John, I think what, what you're
saying there's a terminal terminology problem here. And
booster grams is sort of a catch all phrase, that means anytime
somebody sends you sends a message on lightning. And that's
not exactly what Oscar is proposing. Because he's in a, in
a thing think that when we, when we talk about it, it comes
across garbled. But I think like, what, what Oscar is
proposing, and I think what you're talking about John, is,
is lightning comments, being just another style of comment
where there's a different TLV record, and it's its own thing.
And then the booster grams are, you know, those are still point
to point within the app. It's an app, it's an app to it's a
listener to podcaster message, then you have this other thing
called a boost called a lightning comment. And just if
they could mix, or they might not, and but but but there's
Sorry, sorry, I think isn't that the purview of the podcaster
though? I mean, I guess I'm more liberal on this, like, you could
have a podcaster that wants to show them and then one that
wants to filter
you can you can you can my point is I know what works I'm not so
sure this works really well. I'm not
well, because Because booster grams the way we do it is part
of its show content.
Well that's how they're supposed to work that the intent that's
how the value for value loop work. I'm not saying that's the
only way you can do whatever you want. I don't even like having a
Twitter and and an a mass and I would rather Why don't you have
a if you want to publish it put a bot that connects your booster
grams to your Mastodon or your activity pub. I'm not so sure
that it's a good idea to have all these these different ways
to do it. It's okay. I mean, we can also have five different
types of crypto in in the Valley for value payments, which we
don't.
Well, the you know, the issue here is that I don't even look
at I don't even look at the booster cramps during the week.
I print them off right before the show because I don't want to
know what they are before we read them because it's show
content and if you publish them in advance then all your
listeners already know half of the show. And and it's it's not
as exciting. It's you don't get to hear the new the new content
and so like, but but with a lightning comments system, you
can gateway those things however you want to so if you had, if
you if you were accepting lightning comments and on an
episode, and in those comments that you know our comments are
getting, they could be read, it could be gatewayed out to
activity pub or anything else you wanted them to be, I don't
see them as being mutually exclusive to activity pub and
all.
If I may, it's beautiful to hear you speak that way. Because I
hear you, at one point talking like a content creator. And the
other one, I hear you talking as a software developer
technologist, there's a huge lack of people listening to what
creators want hugely lack. And so we wind up sometimes creating
all kinds of things, or we are in danger of creating things
that people just might not wind up using, or using in a
completely different way and then crippled because we weren't
communicating.
Well, you've called me down on this for years ever, you know,
we've we've always had conversations, phone
conversations where, you know, I said, Hey, I just built this
thing into the framework trelar editor that's gonna let you do
so and so. And you're like, Yeah, but that's not the way I
do things. Right. And, and you're like, let me let me go
over and tell you exactly what my workflow is. And you lay it
out. And then I like, Oh, I get this, like the light bulb goes
off.
So to me, cross app comments in their origin, are extremely
exciting, because I just want to have an app that I use, and I'm
not so worried about, if I can then go and transport my profile
to another app. I appreciate that we're thinking about these
things, even though we still don't have OPML import and
exports anywhere. We're not enough that I just don't think
it's that important. We want comments and apps that work
across the apps.
Yeah, and I think we're looking wait on the road on some of this
stuff. I think the older I get the more kind of like pragmatic,
I'm like, Well, this is not a problem, because no one is
commenting anywhere. Now, it's like RSS is that we kind of need
to see the feed with structured data. So this is gonna, like we
were talking about before for apps that want to check out.
This is not a user facing, but let's say they just want to
follow the, you know, ingest the comments for searching as well.
All of that is useful in the feed as we've described. So I
think we are not even thinking of all the possibilities that.
And again, I'll come back to the numbers. I'm not so focused on
what YouTube may or may not be doing. But when I hear women, a
large segment of women listen to podcasts on the podcast page
itself. We shame on all of us shame on the hosting companies.
Shame on us. Shame on me. Because
I know I've been seeing a lot of people going over to good pods.
Have you guys checked out good pods yet? It's actually kind of
a good app. But it's one of its biggest features is comments.
Right? But it's it's closed off. It's a closed actually. And so
that's an and I'm sure they're fine people. I think I'm even I
think I may even be doing a podcast with the CEO or
something. And I'm so I'll learn a lot more. But you know, when
it's when it's a closed off community? Well, that's the
thing we're trying to get away from. That's exactly why we're
doing this as we I let Apple become the the on ramp to
podcasting. We shouldn't allow anyone to be the on ramp to
comments.
Well take. Let's talk about good pause for a second. Would a
company like good pods? Is this is theoretical, because we don't
know them? What a company like good pods be willing to publish
back out their comments as activity pub? Or do they see
that as some sort of proprietary advantage over the market?
Well, what is their business? I don't know. The reason why we
can even discuss this is because we have no business. Yeah. So I
would think that for in general, most of these types of companies
need to contain their users to some degree, because that's the
value. It's their RP use, or their, you know, their value for
whatever whatever metric they're using. And I believe they're,
they're funded. So they have I think to have investors could be
wrong. I worry
about pod chaser more than I worry about good pods in that
respect.
I don't worry. I don't worry about any of it. I've seen all
this come and go. I've seen AOL come and go
possible integration. I think it would be cool if I actually
think that main hurdle for a lot of these apps and they've just
flipped a bit is do I want comments at all? Because it is
it's a technical thing, but it's also a it's a head Right, I
mean, you are onboarding, user generated content and all that.
So I think a lot of apps have to make that first decision, do I
want to sign up for this? And no amount of magic activity pub
sauce is gonna kind of save them from some of that now we can
create components that make a lot of this easier. But I think
there's still a fundamental thing of do I want to integrate
user base comments in my app? And is that going to be a
feature that I promote? I think good parts has already crossed
that. So I could see them at some point, if there's a
thriving community elsewhere of them bringing it in as well. I'm
not, I don't know anyone over there. But I think from what
I've seen, so far, they've demonstrated that it's, it's a
valuable thing.
But so when it comes to pay, like, there's this issue of
paying for comments, and that's very distasteful, which is part
of the lightning comments, you know, thing is, we can all agree
that if you have to pay for comments, that it's going to
increase the quality of the comment. I mean, to some degree,
you're going to be less likely to have spam and that kind of
thing. But then there's the ethical thing of Do you want to
have to make somebody pay to comment? And the answer is no,
you don't, you don't want to be that way. But in that regard, I
think that's you, it's okay to have both things exist, like a
lightning comment system where you where you do, the app says,
Okay, I want I don't want to have to deal with the headaches
of spam. So I want to enable comments only for people who are
willing to give up one Satoshi, which you know, 1/100 of a cent.
I want. That's the choice that I make for my app. And then you
have this other app that says, No, I'm a free for all want, I
want everything. And because you can go back out to the hole,
because you can gateway it back out to the world. Either way,
then we all get the benefit of seeing both both things in
action. And we can we can then say make decisions later on.
Okay, well, maybe we want to sort things in a different way.
Or when we go to podcast discovery or search, we want to
give more weight to one or the other. Like, I just I see the
the existence of both of those things as fine. I think they I
think it's okay, it makes sense. I don't see it as a format war
at all. I don't know how you feel. But that's the way it
seems to me. Yeah,
I don't either. I get I think it slots in very well with the it's
a choice. So if the if the podcaster chooses to publish
those comments out if they want to do it, there's a tag for it
right now. And then we just define that as a protocol that
right, but where we're where we're at right now, format wars,
or whatever it is. We're stagnant?
Well, I would say I would say in that in that regard with here's
here's what would help distinguish a comment on
lightning from a booster gram. And that is, if somebody is
paying to comment on lightning, debt payments should go to the
app, not the podcaster booster grams, good podcaster. Comments
good? Will the podcaster is not running the comment system.
They're not incurring any of the cost or head or overhead or pain
or anything of moderate? Just want
comments? Yeah, I just want comments. I don't care. Just
give me a thick. I don't care, given the comments,
nice problem to have sort of categories.
Everybody needs, like block on news for the next week. And just
don't think about what everybody you know, whether it's pig tech
or not, we're all looking at the competition.
But what's needed, so is do we need, I feel like, I feel like
we need
what we need is to focus and not bring in all these other
problems. I'm sorry. And that's the way that's the way that's
the way we've done it. So I'm okay with it. We bring in all
these problems and all these things, and we can't do this, we
need to integrate that. And then no one knows what to do. So for
months now, I've been posting the social links on all of my
podcast, there's millions of people who listen to my
podcasts. If there was an app that could do comments, I'd be
talking about it and getting people to use these apps. So but
there's not because we don't have anyone that can do a login
yet.
Well thread. To me the solution to that really is is in one
piece of code and that's what you wrote John, this Dan
and I have people because I posted on no agenda social or
podcasts index dot social, it's populated. So if you open up the
the comments tab on any of my podcasts, there's comments
there. So, you know, I'm doing I'm doing what's expected on my
end. It just seems
like one of the things is Yeah, I think you're just you're
really early, right? I mean, the tag isn't even technically part
of the spec yet. Right. They've so I think that's gonna go in
this next Do you
think that slows me down John Spurlock? No, you.
You're giving me test data that I put you on my website. That
new hype website I put up there podcast love
your hype website. It's snazzy, snazzy. Yeah, I
think I think it's just a slow sort of thing. I mean, we do, we
are waiting for apps to integrate this. So what excited
me so much about it, I, I don't have a dog in the activity pub
fight. But what excited me about it is that it exists that it
basically is exactly what we would design, if we were going
to design something like this, that was kind of a podcast wide,
open Internet protocol based solution. So that exists, the
fediverse exists, like you said, you already have a bunch of
people that are, are actually using a system. So we're not
talking about the additional cost of finding users to do
this. But I think we're just waiting on apps to make this the
experience pretty seamless. And to do that it's not as easy as
like a JSON file, right? You, you have to actually do some
work, you have to say, Oh, I have this logged in user on my
side. Now I have to define a profile for them. And so I think
what's cool, and what I've been kind of working on the last few
months is just creating some pieces that at least show the
way on how an app might do this. And then a couple of tools that
apps could use to read comments, and then to post comments back,
but it's again, it's very early days. So I wouldn't expect
anything right away. But I think again, once you see apps, going
back to competition, let's say pod friend integrates this, you
know, I think you're gonna see apps kind of integrate this
right away. But the podcast social thing is more of another
problem. Because I mean, this, this feature is also limited by
the fact that no podcasts really are putting it in at the moment.
So
what do you what do you mean, that's, I have, I have four
podcasts. 1.4 million people listen to one of those podcasts.
And about a half of all podcasts that actually implemented that.
Okay, but but I can't but you see, you know, who listens to my
show? podcasters.
But you know, what, and that's a good point. I mean, it's easy. I
think a lot of people think that the podcaster side of this is
difficult, and it's not it's like a tag with a link to
notice. But
what what is what we have here is a failure to communicate. Go
look at the engagement on podcasting. 2.0 It's a lot of no
agenda, people who are balls to the wall doing shows that listen
to Spencer, and and going completely flying without a net.
And, yeah, it's really true. It's beautiful to watch. And,
and I it needs to be recognized that people are using it.
They're using it. Let's go, let's let's they're ready for it
anything you do anything actually. So, but just again,
John again, um, I just got I'm so sick of the numbers. Hardly
anybody's using it. Okay, chicken egg. There. It's not
hardly anyone's using it. We put a tag in if one person uses
it. Well, yeah, but what I mean, like what, when you say just do
it? I mean, there's no. I mean, you got what do we do? Know
what, what a formalized attack? Yes, yes, no,
no. But what I'm saying what I'm saying is, we're getting off
track by we're being distracted by do we do we make it lightning
comments? I mean, it will not get done on the path we're on?
And that's because, I don't know, see, I
mean, I'm formalizing the tag. Right. You know, I mean, we're,
I'm putting it into Phase Five right now. I mean, it's, it's
getting done, it just has like pot friend, pot friend and curio
caster and, you know, pod verse, These are forward looking at me
of apps that are willing to do experimental things. Most apps
are not like that understood and understood, they're not, they're
not going to do that. It has to be a formal spec before, before
it can be before it can be done. I mean, there. I'm not. I'm not
bothered by the slow by the slow roll of this, it, it doesn't
bother me because I because every time we come up with some
new edge case that has to be handled, we're thankful that we
didn't go too fast on it.
Dave, I'm, I'm completely in agreement. What I'm saying is,
I'm disappointed that the creators are, are being left out
of the conversation and ignored.
Well, there's just disagreement, there's nothing What do you mean
by that? Yeah, I don't I don't understand what you mean by
that. They're not being ignored. Because there's nothing to
there's nothing, it doesn't exist yet to give to them. But
when
when it comes.
Like because there's no formal specification to give when
I look at what people are arguing about, or discussing,
and once once the lightning comments came back, that's when
I went, Okay, well, it'll be forever because that's going to
go on for a long time. And I'm just saying,
no, no, no, no, I don't think it's gonna slow anything down at
all. No, because in that that's the point of was trying to make
and I did it ever clearly I did a terrible job was that? I don't
think that though I don't think it's a format war, if it was an
actual format war, if this was RSS versus Adam, it would be a
problem. But I don't think there's a format war at all. But
isn't isn't activity pub versus Twitter by definition of format
war?
Well, I don't I don't think anybody cares about Twitter at
this point.
Okay, then why why do we even make it possible to incorporate
it?
I think I think you put it in there as possible, just to make
sure it will the same way that we put in the option for there
to be an ether coin in the value value block. Good point. Nobody
cares.
Good point. Yeah, the altar enclosure is an approved and
implemented tag, correct. Guess how many apps supported?
Want to think to a may be leaving one out now.
So I so I have a I have torrent RSS feeds of all my shows in
torrent? I have. I'd love to do some IPFS. I don't have the I
don't have the tools. I don't have the tools to make it. And I
don't have anyone to receive it. And that's that's a tag that is
good to go.
Nobody wants it though. I want to hear that. But you're not.
You're not exactly.
And there we are. Thank you. Yeah, point made.
You're not You're not a listener. And so keep pushing.
I'm not I'm not, I'm not a listener. I'm not a listener, I
can't talk to my listeners. I can't convince them to do
anything. And they never asked me for anything. That's that.
That's the disconnect,
that the problem with something like that that you're describing
is that the listener can tell no difference between a podcast
delivered through IPFS. And through HTTP download. There's
absolutely zero benefit, perceived perceived benefit to
the listener. And for features like that. apps do not care.
Now, they won the first app to implement alternate enclosure
was pod LP. They had an actual reason for
specific reason for you. But But if I wanted to do video I'd want
to have the alternative tag alternative enclosure tag, I
want to have the media tag implemented, you know, so So now
we're at a different chicken and egg. When can I start creating
stuff using features? If they're not implemented? Do I just go to
podcast index dot social and say, Hey, what are we going to?
Do? You understand? Do you understand? I'm just saying
there's, there's technology dilemmas. And then there's a
dynamic between the developers and the creators. It's not all
just about the listeners, the Creators talk to the listeners
tell them what to do they explain it to them, they help
them get on board. That's that's the missing piece here is we're
always like, Oh, well, everyone, people don't. I think people go
to YouTube, not because it's YouTube, because oh, that's
where they found it. Or that's where it's easy to listen to.
They'll go anywhere to find it as long as it fits within their
realm. And we're not really driving any of that.
That's it, we'll look at YouTube as an example of something like
the alternate enclosure. Alternate enclosure is a direct
replacement, a decentralized replacement for YouTube's
automatic quality scaling. It's one of the it's one of the
aspects of alternate enclosure. The The reason YouTube had to
have that was because it was it without it was a bad experience.
The issue with with podcasts is you give the same thing. But
there are so few video podcasts. And most podcasts quality is
decent, because the bit rates are small. That the the need for
the alternate enclosure perceived a need for it is tiny,
but let
me approach it from a different. Let's stick with YouTube. And
then I'll shut up the main difference between a podcast and
an app and podcast and YouTube, can you tell me there's one
difference? And I don't care if it's audio or video, lots of
people listen to audio podcasts on YouTube with just the album
art image. What is the main difference? In that experience
between between listening to a podcast on YouTube and listening
to one in a podcast app? The the main difference would be well, I
can think of a few. But I mean, the one that jumps to mind is
it's easy.
Okay, John, any thoughts?
You can use your app any app right? You can use the app
you're already familiar with. Whereas if you
know what's different, what's the what's the difference
between listening to a podcast on YouTube or the YouTube app? I
don't care for a podcast app. What's the difference?
Well, you need to be premium first of all or else it's gonna
be a horrible experience.
What is difference? Between premium? What's the difference?
Yeah, I'm looking, I'm looking at the chat room, they're not
getting it either.
There's not a difference.
Well, honestly, what I would say is that there is really not much
of a difference.
Okay? Are you ready for it? Comments? Calm comments. That's,
that's the difference. I've been on big podcasts. And the
community is in the comments 1000s And 1000s of them comments
on my language, see, that's why I was I was sold in December,
whatever, when I started working. So I think that that is
actually a, I would like to see, I'm basically doing whatever I
can to make it as easy for apps to implement this because I
think it benefits every app to do this. Because the more we
kind of pool our user base, right, the more we're not doing
our own separate comments. I'm writing an app now, right? I'm
creating comments. If comments don't exist, I'm still gonna do
comments, they will just be locked in my app. And so we
haven't really gone anywhere. I think the beauty of this is that
we've actually defined a way that works to do it across apps.
And so I'm personally going to do whatever I can to keep making
that happen. Because I think it's actually a cool fall off.
Not that hard. I'm
saying is there's no difference. No other difference. That's,
that's the main difference. Yeah, I mean, when and now what
they do have, and this is an if you just want just look at a
successful model. They have the Super Chat. Now that is how you
can incorporate boost into the comments. They by the way, they
don't show up in the comments below, they show up in a
separate area on YouTube. So if we're truly worried about
YouTube coming in and stomping all over podcasting, well, let's
at least do what they do equally or better. And I think we can.
No, I think we
can do Yeah, absolute goodness said it better myself. That's
that's actually but the live chat issue and the booster grams
there. I think that's where it really comes into play. They
have the notion of, but actually don't have the notion of a live
replay like Twitch, where they show that but
if we if we just did a UX copy, we just did a UX comparison side
by side. Yeah. Any any study that just said, what are the
main features would say, Well, look, look what's going on here.
People seem to come back here to read, if there's replies to
their comments. I mean,
testers can go there. And instead of going to five
different apps, they can go to one place to see all the
feedback on you know, the entire community feedback for a given
episode, I think podcasters, you know, going back to the Creator
side of this, they have number one, they have control over what
happens at that endpoint where they don't have control over
that in Twitter or YouTube. Correct. But number two, they
have one place to go. So they kind of have their own, they can
use that channel. That's the ideal their own community. So I
think it's like and then and then this thing community
system,
and it be a community. Now, I understand all the apprehension
and and having apps or having comments in someone's app may
not and may not be for everybody. But that's literally
what people want. And end to end to have a an I think you're the
cast pod would agreed to own that, quote, unquote, to have
that within in your control, certainly not to have someone
else determine what can or can't what comment can or cannot be
visible. That's what we're doing here. That's the whole point.
So, yeah, let's do it. Where are we done yet? Well, i i It's kind
of nice. It folds together because this this, you know,
it's apples to oranges to a degree YouTube to podcasting.
And I'm also just, I'm so sick of hearing about it, like do a
show me something already, or YouTube's eating our lunch or
the independent apps are dying? Well, no, I just I just
disagree. This is just a metric. But it's not the metric.
And it's what you said about incentives is really important.
I think there's a limited amount of push you guys can do and all
of us can do. I think some of its going to have to be pulled
like people are going to have to be excited. But an app developer
is going to have to be excited about adding this before any of
this stuff takes off. So maybe some of the apprehension is that
people just aren't that excited app developers aren't that
excited adding this feature.
Okay, just let's not all get our panties in a bunch when YouTube
has people going over there for certain things we don't have.
But I don't Well, I think it's a little more complicated than
that. Because Youtube, the the Super Chat. The Choose Super
Chat experience on YouTube really only exists on the
desktop. The mobile, the mobile side of that is a mess. The it's
only a good experience in YouTube when you're watching it
at a out on the web. And I think that's pretty Probably an
instinctive thing that people understand. And that's probably
why pod friend and pod verse and you know, impossibly curio
caster are the ones to implement it first. Because when you have
you have, you know, screen real estate to to really enjoy the
experience of having a chat and a video in one screen. Now I'm
not saying it's impossible with mobile,
but no, but I'm totally I'm totally in agreement. I think
that's why I've I've always been a fan of web apps in general for
this very reason.
But see that in and that's why that's, that's why probably the
adoption within the podcast app ecosystem is going to be slower
for comments than it will be on on the website, or maybe even on
YouTube proper is because YouTube, for all I mean, for all
it's, for all its growth on mobile and everything. Well, you
know, YouTube really is still the best experience on the web.
And so and that's not traditionally been the case for
podcasts. So there has to be like that's, that's where it
this is exciting, though, because that's where web, good
web apps like pod verse and Courier caster and pod friend
can really shine and take back some market share from the
mobile aspect of things.
It's such a such a small step from a woman wanting to listen
to a podcast to click on a link land on a web page versus
landing on a progressive web page. It's the smallest step
known to mankind. It's the same thing. So I need to do better.
And I need to be, you know what, here's some low hanging fruit
that I want to talk about. It folds into this. I was looking
for a web page for Korean the keeper podcast, because it's the
typical freedom controller page. You know, I love my freedom
controller. My wife's like, you know, she's in marketing
communications like, God is this piece of shit?
Oh, throw and Shay.
Yeah. Well, I took the I took the brunt of it, Dave. And so we
talked about on the grenade. Yeah. So we talked about on the
show. And of course, as it always happens, so much it was
actually Dave Jackson says, Well, you know what, why don't
you take a look at pod page, like, oh, pod page and pod page.
You know, you just I did it. I claimed my
feed. And, and it was easy, because your emails are out
there. That's
right. And I read a couple more offers at the same time. And I
liked it. And so you know, and just by reading the feed, and
you have a couple Yup, we actually have a lot of
configuration options, and boom, it pops up. And I'm like, wow,
that's a really decent website. That really looks pretty good.
Except and you can map your domain name to it and
everything. Except, yeah, gee, I mean, there's zero podcasting
2.0 features in it. No chapters, no transcripts, any of that. And
just to add insult to injury right below the you know, the
each individual episode, it has a, an Apple icon and a Spotify
icon. So here's an opportunity. Because right now, I hear a lot
of talk about the podcasters page, you know, and of course,
we all in the hosting companies all do a yeoman's job of giving
people free pages. But just think about this opportunity
that's just sitting out there. I mean, I'll use it. I'll use it
for all my shows, look at all of my podcast, except for no agenda
show which. But the show notes pages are just freedom
controller renderings of outlines.
Yeah, I mean, given James was interested over at pod news. And
I mean, the more structured data you have on an episode, you
could share those on the on the pod, the pod news generated page
as well. But I
just want to send a whole bunch of women to something they're
comfortable with. And they don't seem to want an app, they listen
to some of my shows on a on a web page. Why not have it be a
fantastic experience. And I have a lot more real estate to
explain how to how to fill up a wallet.
Pro tip. You can include custom CSS on the controller page and
change the entire way it looks.
Yeah, this CSS is kind of where it breaks down for me.
Yeah, this is your wish to do that. Back in the day. I
remember you had a competition on ninja. Oh, no agenda one time
of like, hey, I want everybody to submit custom CSS for the
O shaped pages, but also also the change words. That is
referred to
the Chrome extension. Yeah, Chrome extensions.
You can do crazy stuff with CSS nowadays. I'm sure you could.
Yeah, you can replace content. You can. Yeah,
I'm just a podcast. I can I can. I can look at I can look at my
feed and kind of figure out what's going on. That's the
level.
That pot page 2.0 ideas really, really Good because that is a
way it's like a very low friction way. It's not a whole
app that you have to install. Boom, here's an episode. And
it's lit up by all these new tags.
I mean, I'll be honest with you, I, I use breeze frequently. But
that's, I would say, for some reason, I can always count on
breeze to refresh the feed. And there I do have problems with my
browsers with caching and shit. Sometimes things, you know,
haven't updated when they should have so often, yeah, I'll use
breeze just to make sure I have the most recent version, then I
have to quit out of breeze because it gets my battery gets
to hold the whole phone and starts to heat up after after a
while
from the Chrome has always been such a pain when it comes to
caching like it. It is just when it comes to it's nasty.
But then I have now I use pod friend because it has a
beautiful. Yeah, it has a little list there of the episodes that
I have feeds that I subscribe to in chronological order. So I go
oh, there's that one. There's that one. So I know what's
updated. I list of little bullets and new that's horrible
to me. I like I'm a river of news guy, if anything. But then
curio caster just has all the features I want. And when I go
to my desktop, fire it up. It's there. My subscriptions, you
know, I can use it on any computer. I want. Mobile or big
screen. I have to say I find my even Twitter, I use the web app.
I don't use apps anymore. Oh, and I'm not just because I'm
Boomer adjacent. Douchebag in the cotton gin. You're ahead of
the game. Yeah. Cotton Gin in the chat rooms going through a
bunch of boomers in here.
Well, I mean, did you use mutt as your email client? Mean?
There's some truth. But okay, so what's happening right this
moment, and I think it's good to step back and get perspective
here. What's happening right at this moment is that a lot of
people are listening to the show on curio caster. Mm hmm. And the
chat should be showing up also included us. So yes, this, this
is super chat happening at the moment. And also from the
perspective of Steven B. If people are boosting through Kira
Castro while they're listening right now, he's getting a
percentage of those of those stats. That's your incentive to
do the adoption for a lot of these things. If you're on the
web platform. Now get really good stuff.
Unfortunately, with today's live experiment, it seems like the ln
pay node could not handle whatever was going on, or I'm,
I'm just not receiving payments for some reason. But we did get
the 10,034 from Darren and he came in with a second 133 33,333
He says he still had some SATs leftover from random thoughts,
unrelenting, and planet rage. And this is our vague he says,
Did you
get my test boost earlier? Nope. It's it it went through now.
Then. videos from CAST Matic it may
be the exorbitant fees I have said on the nodes.
Spencer, it's like do it like Yeah, I told you so.
Well, they shouldn't fail. Yeah, true. I got. I have lots of
routes. It shouldn't fail.
But I got confetti on my side. Someone's going through.
Okay.
I don't know. I don't know. But oh, I know what Yeah. And it was
Brahmanism. Also,
my home IP also wound up on the spam house list or whatever. I
don't know how that happened. Oh, crap. This. All of a sudden,
I couldn't get to my my mail server.
I've got new internet. I'm on one gig right now, baby.
I can tell you sounds so much better way to live. Yes. sounds
so much better.
Hey, do we want to thank people?
Yeah, yeah. Wow, an hour and a half. This has been this has
been a very intense board meeting. Gentlemen, I enjoyed
this trip. Hold on a second. Let me just knock off the official
part. Let's, let's thank some people who supported the not
just the podcast, but that there's my dog, but the project.
So when you support us, you're supporting the work. Certainly
the work Dave's doing you are supporting, although not Dave
not getting any money. But we're getting SATs one way or the
other. But you're really helping the machinery run and and giving
us a bit of runway to continue to grow as we expect to and you
can do that. Well, obviously, anyone who's contributing their
time or talent is helping right off the bat. And that's how
value for value should work. Having the treasure angle is
very helpful to keep it running. And we'd like booster grams we'd
like Satoshis because we just poured those.
Yes, numbers go up.
Not today.
So do you have a node? John, that we can get a split of this
episode?
Oh, yeah, I have one of those cute Bitcoin machines. I had to
bug the guy incessantly in order for him to ship it.
Oh, okay, I did work. Well, you can get payments and stuff. I
think
so. Yeah, I have a mini pub project. I have a value block in
there. I don't if you want to. I'll send you a block that you
could use though for this one. Yep. Okay, cool.
Send it to me so I can put it right in the feed before we
publish
a scene. So right off the bat. RSS calm and you want to guess
RSS calm?
Yeah, though.
They're they're big supporters. Do I need to have my hand on the
button?
Oh, you better you better be hovering. Okay. I'm hovering
$1,000 Whoa.
Holy crap.
Shot Carla 20 blades on I am Paula.
That's what I'm talking about. Saying the Dave Sorry. No
sad puppies today.
No good work. No
Go podcasting. 2.0 that is,
I got to let one out. It wasn't really a boost, but it just
makes me feel good.
Alberto, just really appreciate it. They've been helping us
since early early days. Yeah. And always very responsive in
the master Dante. They'll jump in there when?
And Dan was an implementing namespace.
Yeah, straight up. Yep. Thank you guys. We got $100 from Les.
Les Barnes. Li he no note. Well, thank you. Thank you for that.
You. See $7.77 from Charles sale. No note. Thank you, Joe.
That's our that's our PayPals we get some boosts we get.
So literally, literally to paper towels. Yeah, we have
transition. we've transitioned into the lower valued Satoshi
world.
Yeah, it's like, it's like two or three paper towels and 40 You
know, booster grams. Let's see anonymous, through breeze. 7777
SATs says heavenly boost.
Ooh, where's my heavenly? Do we have a heavenly boost?
I don't know the heavenly boost. Let's see. Chad Farah says 3333
through Fountaine. He says with all that grunting from Dave I
thought I was listening to Adam and John no agenda. A lot last
week?
I don't know. I guess I didn't notice it darling. See, probably
aggravating you.
Well, this must be Chad Pharaoh says another 3333 And he says I
don't like it when mommy and daddy fight. Maybe we're
fighting at the time. We never
fighting. This is how to fight what you know what it is, is
people aren't used to honesty to hearing people have an honest
conversation because everything is so fake in the mainstream and
on a lot of podcasts
with if if Chad doesn't like, intense discussion, he probably
bailed out like 30 minutes ago. This has been this has been the
intense board meeting. Cast peatland. 3300 SATs through
fountain at CES thanks for the show.
Thank you. Yeah, boost.
Marry Oscar marry one on one sets really like this idea of
dated news based episodes, especially if tied into chapters
so that apps can mark which chapters have been played and
listeners can just carry on from where they were. Yeah, that
was for spooler. Yeah. You know, I heard the bogs on pod land. I
heard that part. And he was saying, Yeah, we're really late.
And he was just talking about pod ping. Like, it was a whole
thing.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is a thing. But yeah, but you need to recognize that no one's
jumping up. And you know, and, and Cridland, just say no,
you're going to support this. This is a you know, and
podcasting via the namespace. It's now part of the discussion.
Yeah, it's it's like it's like, cemented it's in there. I mean,
we're not going anywhere. We're only going one way.
What do you call that? Like a it's not a house word. What
household name is like a household word now within the
podcast industry? Yeah. Like
whatever that is. Whatever the pod is YouTube part of the
Google part of the podcast industry. No.
Never. Patrick Erlich Elric. Patrick Ulrich said through
fountain he said 500 SATs and he said El Salvador for all
ready to move.
Did you see that city in Italy? That's now big is no
Switzerland, Switzerland, Switzerland. Lugano?
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's that's that's the
that's the way to go. You know, the states in America can do
that too. They can they can make their own money.
texts. First. Yeah, just saying sir Bill 5000 SATs do fountain
he says for the marketing budget. Hey, thank you. Dog here
it no here. Yes. Tommy. John's BRT gave us 49,000 SATs do
fountain he says Theramin boost I gotta have more Theramin Oh
crap. We have a Theramin Yeah, we
do think we do let's see, I do a Theramin boost I think
never enough hands. I'm playing with Theramin and I hit the
jingle and I needed an extra hand.
Got Sikora? Give us 5150 But Oh I wonder if that's a Van Halen
but
of course it has to be must be does he say anything?
He says first time boost. been loving the show and appreciate
all the information and hard work you guys do for podcasting.
My podcast is talking beards talking beards calm. Well, I
think we should bring back the now that he boosted first ties,
fragmented Yeah, got to be defragmented
I think in that drips kid. Probably 11 to see the big row
of ones 1111 to see but what is this? 11,111 through breeze nice
anonymous just as cheers.
Chad F in the chat room says you guys had a fake fight on the
last episode. Oh yeah, you got us. You got us. It was a fake
fight. Fake.
They're all fake. They're
all legit. Well, that's why we fight.
Oh, Chad. Speak of the devil give us 101 says he says this is
some next level shit.
Okay, okay, yeah.
Alrighty then. Martin through pod friend gave us 100 SATs. He
says boost test. You can see when people are doing stuff
Krimson outwell gave us 6666 That's a demon boost through
breeze. Oh, steam avatar name. Poli.
I made a mistake. What was it? I'm seeing Steven B. He says the
reason why Adams not seeing any of the live boosts is because
it's boosted rev monitor isn't in the value block.
Oh,
how come that didn't copy over? Well, so I'm sorry, then that is
operator failure. And I take back everything I said. And
that's too bad. Because otherwise you would have had a
lot more. A lot more puce in the show.
Bomber. Yeah. There's always next week. Yeah. Okay. All
right. Another lesson learned. Another 6666 Anonymous three
breeze and he says love my breeze. We love racing. You do?
That's right. net net. And it's 33 cents and you just as testing
just received that move
33 cents get out of town.
In the chat room kicker. For the mere mortals podcast gave us
2222 row of ducks.
Yeah, yeah. Rubber Ducks.
He says if you're going to start going live, we need the details.
What's the general start time and if I donate enough sets will
you make it later? So I don't have to wake up at an ungodly
hour. Oh, that's right. Because in Australia, can I get a low
boost as well please add them and now as the French say it is
timeful low boost
that now I understand why I was getting booster grams from
Darren because he was doing it on breeze on episode 75 or 76 so
that is in the split. Okay, Mystery solved. Gotcha. I'm
pissed at myself now. Am it
get another test boost from Martin and 400 SAS and then we
get a user this is Sir Harry pilgrim okay, I'm not gonna read
out this ungodly long number here. He said 3569 says to found
he says Sir Harry pilgrim boosting my birthday a couple of
days late fifth of March boost
Yes, baby boost boost.
Again, this looks like well, I don't can't tell if this. These
are just numbers. You guys you got to put a name in there. User
717454 bla bla bla bla bla gave us 1000 SATs he says boost from
recovered podcast podcasting hope since 2,007x covered
podcast How you doing?
That was it. That was it? Well, and then we have our monthly
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, that was that was it for that
message. Well, this is from Adam. Is that you?
I don't know. What did I say?
He said Nice to meet you.
Ah, obvious demo booster gram demo demo
so don't let the pastor know that you're self boosting as you
get to talking to Krimson Algol 6666 again through brazenly says
booster grams are now 128 characters in breeze Yay. Oh
that's nice
20,000 sets through fountain from Stephen North port Florida.
Keep doing what you're doing. Here's a boost for humanity
boost.
Oh, we need a boost for humanity. Boost Okay. All in the
works.
Nomad Joe 2000 sets he says live sounds awesome.
We just did he just said that. Oh, no, that was from Spencer's
sweet. Yeah.
Oops, Toshi stream, send us 5552 sets through fountain and he
says in terms of I like I like these very, you know, the
conversational boost. In terms of amount of boost. Dave Jones
has second place for two Satoshis dot stream podcast.
Adam takes eighth place. What that Dave is the same Dave to
its first place for Dave.
Boom. I'm a loser. But is that is that is that in amount or
frequency?
Both? know you've talked about your eighth place? Yeah, that
was a mount.
Okay. But I think I spend a lot of boosts.
One thing is one thing is very is certain. I am the master of
boosting. I clearly I give
up so people need to support us with more so that because Dave
is clearly funding the entire network since day
one. I might. Yes. I mean days money. i
It's it does feel like that a little bit and I'm a bit
concerned about you. Do we need to have a booster vention?
Booster Vinted must have downregulated
Oh, you mean Melissa beat you over the head and said what?
What are all these charges?
I prefer to say that I did it to myself.
To you David asked me said how many posts? Do you really said?
Circular baby? I don't know. Moving around internet tokens?
Yes, exactly. It's internet money. Exactly.
Mike Caden, he have red circle centers. 2222. Sets road ducks.
He says. He says premature ejaculation.
That's hilarious.
And Niall sin is 101 He says great comment.
Okay. All right. Thank you. We aim to please.
Yes, yes. I thought it was too. Yeah. Ron pleau. Now, can
I just say something? If we if we ever implement the timelines,
then you know, you could in your interface, click on that. And it
would say, Oh, this is exactly where he boosted grabbed and we
would know what he was talking about.
We'll see we had this good. We had such an excellent idea of
putting a link to this timestamp where you can just click on it
and listen to it. Does that work? It does it absolutely does
work. Well. I'm too lazy to actually do it. So
is that in heli pad two?
Oh, no, it's not exposed in Hello, Pat. That's a good idea.
I should expose that.
expose it Dave Jones exposure? Yeah. As That's called being a
podcaster this is this is the Dave That's the podcaster who is
a good podcaster
Ron ploof send us 211,200 sang
Holy moly. I'm gonna roll out the big baller for a
shot Carla 20 blades on I am Paula.
Boost. A hunt this a 100x Rush boost as a Thanks to Dave for
helping me here my first
few Oh,
griddle cakes radio podcast exploring the lost art of audio
storytelling since 2005.
griddle cakes lost audio podcast
griddle cakes radio podcast.
Oh, I know griddle cakes. I think they've been around
forever.
Ron please do you know rounds.
I know his his brother David. David. Okay. Luke wasn't a
speechwriter for Obama. No. He's a different guy. Great. Okay.
Cakes radio. Sounds very familiar to me.
Thank you for the Yes, thank
you so much for that support. Killer.
Floridian slips and it's 5000 SATs. To found and then he says
thanks for assisting on podcast index dot social Dave
boost yo, boost boost boost boost
boost see three more. Nicholas bhuntar been I'm going to this
get a little dots over the top of the use I'm going to say
booster booster. Nicholas bhuntar PS bar is gone gunta
1000 SATs through breeze and he says boosting for podcasting 2.0
heart.
Ah fat streaming back atcha
We love you too. Sir Doug sent 4400 sets through fountain he
says boobs
yo yo
Yep, we're at the end of the end of the day louder. The comics
through blogger donation, comic strip blogger 10,033 sets
through pod friend and he says Hi, Dave and Adam, thank you for
your service to podcasting. And if your listeners want to hear
latest news about artificial intelligence, they're invited to
listen to AI cooking. bi weekly podcast spoken by Gregory
William Forsythe Foreman from kin, yo.
Yo. Comics your blogger
gets monthly. Cameron rose give us $25 Jeremy new $5 pod verse
$50. Mitch Downey $10 Chris Chara Barak $10, Terry Keller,
$5. And I added this little bit in here that I wanted to say if
you have any ability to donate anything extra, you know, it
would be good to go in and donate to things like in a tube
that Alex is running out of his own pocket and podcast
social.org from John running it stuff out of his own pocket.
It's just I would I would like to just make it make it clear
that there's a lot of people will pay for stuff out of their
own pocket. And it's always good to support them. You know, if
you can what is it?
What are they? What a passionate plea Dave?
Thank you. It's Chuck Chara Barak. Yes. Yes, sorry. I have
to say, go for it. Nice.
I considered muting it but I'm like now why let a good sneeze
go to waste.
You had a you had a nice new microphone and you just
destroyed
John Spurlock man, you are a gem and and we're very, very
fortunate and blessed to have you inside the group. And I
really, really enjoyed sparring with Spurlock a bit today.
sparring with Spurlock. I think it's exciting. I think. I think
one of the cool things about this community is that
everyone's I think what Dave said a while ago is that we're
here because we're passionate about it, right? We're here
because we have to be here. No one's paying us to be here. So I
think it's gonna be really interesting to see what happens
over the next few months. And, you know, I, I appreciate all
you guys do and keep going.
Yeah. And do you want do you want to just wrap it up a bit
with your podcast social.org, just so we can send
people there when listening to this podcast is probably already
familiar. But I would, I would basically say the podcast
social.org site is just a quick overview site for everyone in
the podcasting ecosystem to learn about the new tag, now
that it's going to be in the next phase. So now's the time to
get hyped and excited about it. And then for app developers,
there's a few components. So if you want to read activity pub
comments, there's an NPM package called thread cap out there
that's free to use open source. And then if you're an app that
wants to do that nice integration that we're talking
about from the mobile app, you're going to need to have a
server. So I have an open source server component that basically
you can use to do that. And that's your mini mini. Yeah,
yep.
Can you John, can you send me an hour? We talked about this on
the dev meeting, but I think Martin may have forgotten. Can
you send me like a like a sample output a thread cap? Because I'm
importing it to PHP. And I really just Can I ask
what thread cap is
it's just a way to take a snapshot of an activity pub
Convo, right. So you like you take the route comment, and then
some program needs to go and enumerate Oh, what are the
replies? What are the replies to that reply? You get it and then
so and then at the end, you're just left with like a threaded,
Jason object, basically. So it makes people that are used to
just dealing with like a single json file hopefully makes a
little easier to integrate. Its activity Pub is not that hard to
use. But it's a little messy because like RSS, like everyone
does things a little differently. So REDCap kind of
papers over some of that stuff. Yeah.
Can you send me a sample output though of like, just just what
it looks like? The thing is gonna be easier than trying to
go line by line through your code and intro to sort of poured
it and then FF like I just aim for a target of what the outputs
supposed to look like.
Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Okay. Is not good enough.
I would not say it that way. What I would say is that I'm
terrible at JavaScript, that would be the way I would
describe it.
Yeah, I would say things are very early days on this, right.
So everyone, that's anyone that has any feedback on any of the
projects that I'm doing or anything like that. And I think
gear may actually was going back and forth pod station, is doing
yeoman's work of like filing bugs against Yes. And getting
some of those fixed, oh, dynamite. So he's been doing
really good work. So we've been I'll definitely integrate
whatever he's, he's finding into the mini pub documentation,
actually have some example if people want to not use mini pub,
but just want to do it themselves. I even have some
documents and like, here's what Mastodon comes back with. Here's
what Pleroma comes back with acid that might be of interest
to developers that are kind of like me and want to do
everything themselves.
Yeah, sure. Seems like party code.
Sure. Seems like activity Pub is is a winner. The stuff we're
doing with it? I mean, it just seems like it's a big thing
overall, for decentralized, whatever, whatever it is, the
whole world is kind of building.
Yeah, it just we just need tools like thread cap where, where
people like James can just have a tool to output this stuff into
a usable format on the side and not have to do all the guts
implementation of activity pub, that, that we need the next we
need a next layer up, things like that. Yeah, because that's
one of the reasons I'm trying to do the red cap into PHP is
because we're just need more of those layers
of useful for a pod friend, I think too, right. I think his
back end and thinks of you. So yeah, thanks.
Thanks. Thanks to all of our supporters with your time your
talent, your treasure, thanks to well everyone who supported
this. Steven B. Thank you very much for your guidance. Alex
gates is hanging out in the in the chat room. Who else is in
there though? Chad F. Yeah. It's our cast, sir. bemrose making
sure we don't screw up the chat. Appreciate that.
Steven bass Spencer.
And I'll have the value blocks stuffs sorted for for the next
episode. Thank you both for your for your patience with me and
for your passion. Yeah. That's the passion I'm talking about
right there. Thanks, guys. Have a great weekend. All right.
That's it for podcasting. 2.0 Episode number 77. We back with
another board meeting next week. See you then. Take care
everybody have a good weekend?
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