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Podcasting 2.0 for March 21st, 2025, Episode

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215, Traffic and Weather on the 8s.

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Hello, everybody.

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Welcome once again to the only show that

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matters.

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I don't care what you like listening to.

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Is it politics?

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Is it about AI?

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It's all here.

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Of course, if you're here for podcasting, you're

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really in luck because this is the official

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board meeting of Podcasting 2.0. We are

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the only boardroom that makes guests bring their

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own lunch.

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I'm Adam Curry here in heart of the

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Texas Hill Country and in Alabama.

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The man whose static global hash map is

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always up to date.

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Say hello to my friend on the other

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end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.

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That went faster than normal.

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I'm not finished tweeting.

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It probably didn't go faster than normal.

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It's the same every single week.

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I try to hit the post, but sometimes

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I scratch it, but it's always the same.

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Yeah, that's what it was.

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You didn't say my last name long enough.

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There we go.

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It's your fault.

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It's my one day a week I get

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to play DJ.

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Yeah, especially since you hadn't done a booster

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gram ball in like three months.

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, I'm too busy saving podcasting.

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That's true.

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I'll give you a pass.

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Hello, boardroom.

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Good to see everybody here.

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Once again, everyone is all set and good

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to go.

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How's your week been, Dave?

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Oh, it's good.

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I found out I got a leak in...

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I drove my wife's truck this morning, the

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67 Ford, and it was leaky fuel pump.

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Oh, no.

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I hate that.

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Well, I mean, it's got a 460 in

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it, so it's already...

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Why don't you just put the tank right

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on top of the cylinder head in that

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case?

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Put it right in.

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You know, spray the fuel into the blower.

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She has a blower, doesn't she?

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No, there's no blower.

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I can just see Dave's wife with a

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blower on top, big chrome job.

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This is an F-250.

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It's a 67 F-250 with a three

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quarter ton axle.

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It weighs like 8,000 pounds.

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Is that a dually?

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It's got the big axle for the dually,

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but it doesn't have two tires.

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Okay.

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Well, you should get her an extra set

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of tires for her birthday.

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Hey, baby, happy birthday.

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Here you go.

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Oh, thanks.

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Yeah, that's kind of needed.

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I've had a bad afternoon.

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Oh.

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Yeah.

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Well, my umbral, which I have...

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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Installed under Ubuntu, but never upgraded to 1

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.0 because it just all kind of worked.

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I've been putting that off for so long

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now.

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Well, so the node quit and it was

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kind of my backup node.

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So I had, you know, I have two

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channels open.

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One from my start nine and then one

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from the umbral.

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And then I have a channel between the

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umbral and my start nine.

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So, you know, it's two routes, more or

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less.

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And lots of people, because that thing's called

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Podfather.

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So a lot of people connected to it.

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And of course that stopped working.

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And then like, OK, restart.

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Restart the umbral.

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No, nothing works.

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Well, and this is where I went wrong.

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You just typed upgrade.

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No, no, it won't.

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It won't update yet.

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There's a whole process.

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If you're not on, you know, if you're

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on Linux, there's a whole process you have

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to go through.

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You got to export all your data.

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Then you have to upgrade.

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And then, you know, it has to start

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for it has to boot from a USB.

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My mistake was like, well, you know, maybe

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you just need to upgrade Bitcoin Core and

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the Lightning.

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Yeah, that's it.

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So when it came back up, not only

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did that not come back up, it shows

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starting.

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But my vault warden also didn't come back

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up.

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Oh, so you run personal bit warden.

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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How did that, how did that mess up?

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I don't know.

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That shouldn't even be anything to do with

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the other stuff.

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I'm assuming that's just a docker container.

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Yeah, well, you don't know these docker containers.

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There's all kinds of stuff that goes on

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with that.

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It's so I don't now I don't know

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what to do.

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Because now all my passwords, you know, and

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I'm like, oh, luckily I have it on

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the app.

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And the app's like, no, I can't connect.

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I thought the app would synchronize it and

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it would just stick.

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Nothing like single point of failure to make

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your life interesting.

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Yeah, my life is very interesting now.

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But then for some reason, I have one

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Tor window open.

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Tor window?

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What's a Tor window?

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You know, a browser window under Tor.

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Oh, I see.

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Yeah.

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And so for some reason, I can connect

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to the vault warden with that.

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But if I open a new window and

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try to connect to the vault warden, it

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says error in device or something, whatever that

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means.

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So this this means immediately export everything from

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that open tab.

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So I click export.

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Nothing happens.

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Can you see everything?

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I can see everything.

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I can search it.

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Of course, I'm deadly afraid to close it.

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I won't.

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For sure.

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So now I do have a vault warden

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running on the start nine.

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So I think now I'm going to have

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to manually copy the things over that are

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new since the last time I installed it.

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So I'm in between like copy all the

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vault warden stuff over and let this whole

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thing die.

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And eventually the channels will close.

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And I can always, you know, it'll go

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back to the node and I can always

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get stuff off in the node with a

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different wallet.

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Can you control a that tab?

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Copy, paste.

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Well, unfortunately, no, because it only has the

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entries.

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You have to you have to click each

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single.

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It's no.

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Yes.

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Hey, you can't get it.

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You can't get a page that just has

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everything, everything exposed.

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All the passwords are also hidden.

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No, no, this is this this is a

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this is a crop show, man.

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This is really bad.

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This is bad.

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It's bad.

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Don't you ever close that tab?

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No, no.

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This tab is going to stay open.

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You need.

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Yeah, this you need to you need to

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encase this tab in carbonite.

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Lucite.

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Yeah, lucite.

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Oh, man.

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Anyway.

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Well, it's kind of interesting.

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I was listening to power.

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Pop up a power podcast weekly review.

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And I depend on you.

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That's your beat.

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Now I depend on you for that because

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I don't ever have time to listen to

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it anymore.

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I feel bad.

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It's not that I hate him.

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It's not.

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I'm not.

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No, you're not.

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I just don't have time.

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No, but I totally disagree with them 100

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percent on this episode.

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OK.

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Um, and there was something James said, which

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did I say that we called this part

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this podcast podcasting to point to piss off

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Dave Weiner?

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I don't think I ever said that.

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No, we never said that and never did

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that.

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That's not true.

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Maybe we said it as a joke or

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something.

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I can't recall it.

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I could totally see us saying that as

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a joke.

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But, you know, that had nothing to do

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with it.

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So James like this project is full of

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ego.

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No ego.

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My ego, my ego does not need satisfying.

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This project is a project of love, baby.

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It's all a project of love.

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But they did have Matt Medeiros on.

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I was not able to hear.

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I didn't have enough time to listen because

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I was, you know, messing around with the

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umbrel.

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And I can't mess around with the umbrel

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and focus on a podcast.

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That's very difficult.

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Um, but this, of course, is, um, is

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all due to the article.

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Troublemaker Tom Webster wrote.

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Troublemaker.

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He's a troublemaker.

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This is where you say, yeah, he's a

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troublemaker.

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Yeah.

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Which I think I actually agreed with 99

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.9% of, uh, of what he wrote.

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And, um, you were smart enough as you

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are because, you know, I listened to podcast

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weekly review.

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You booked the guests and you said, Hey,

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I'm the booker.

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You're the booker, baby.

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Please.

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Welcome to the board meeting.

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Everybody.

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The one, the only from sounds profitable.

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The man with the golden voice, the pipes

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of lavender.

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Tom Webster.

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You know, I, I'm, I keep going back

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to, uh, vault warden and I have actually

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not thought about, uh, my vault warden since

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I escaped from a Burmese jail back in

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1992.

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This is what I mean.

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This is what I mean.

284
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,740
This is a morning show guy.

285
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:49,740
He's got the voice.

286
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,200
You know, you need a couple, a couple

287
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:53,880
of sound effects and everything.

288
00:08:54,380 --> 00:08:56,520
And it's not the same without your sidekick

289
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:56,740
though.

290
00:08:58,820 --> 00:09:00,060
Carlos and the chicken.

291
00:09:00,260 --> 00:09:00,440
Yeah.

292
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:07,800
All right.

293
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,880
Now I promised you when we got, when

294
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,300
we first started this off the air that

295
00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:13,880
I was going to disabuse you of a

296
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,200
notion and this is going to surprise you.

297
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:16,700
Okay.

298
00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:19,520
I have never worked in radio a day

299
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:20,480
of my adult life.

300
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,420
Well, this is a travesty and a loss

301
00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:26,280
for the industry.

302
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,020
And you can see the results.

303
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,060
You've been in a radio station though.

304
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:33,580
Surely.

305
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:34,520
Oh yeah.

306
00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:36,500
I've been in many, uh, you know, but

307
00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:38,520
as a, as a consultant, as an, you

308
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,060
know, audience research guy, but, uh, like work

309
00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:42,400
for a station, get a check from a

310
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:42,660
station.

311
00:09:42,780 --> 00:09:42,980
Never.

312
00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,800
Well, so what is your background, Tom Webster?

313
00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,100
Uh, you know, it's, it's really survey research

314
00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:50,800
and, and, uh, consumer behavior.

315
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,220
And I, I started, uh, in the radio

316
00:09:53,220 --> 00:09:55,220
business doing that for a couple of radio.

317
00:09:55,340 --> 00:09:55,680
Wait a minute.

318
00:09:55,940 --> 00:09:57,680
Were you one of these guys, one of

319
00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,120
these consultants who would come in, you'd have

320
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,940
the, the rollaway bag, the trolley bag, and

321
00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:04,180
you come in and all this, all the

322
00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:05,740
DJs would go, Oh crap.

323
00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:06,780
The consultants here.

324
00:10:06,820 --> 00:10:07,860
Were you one of those guys?

325
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,120
A hundred percent.

326
00:10:09,220 --> 00:10:09,700
Oh man.

327
00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:11,120
We used to hate you.

328
00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:13,060
Like, Oh, this guy's going to come in

329
00:10:13,060 --> 00:10:14,420
and tell us we're doing it all wrong.

330
00:10:14,420 --> 00:10:15,980
You got to keep your brakes to 3

331
00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:17,080
.7 seconds.

332
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,380
Well, it's given me thick skin.

333
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:20,040
I will say that.

334
00:10:20,180 --> 00:10:20,720
I'll bet.

335
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:21,200
I'll bet.

336
00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:21,580
Okay.

337
00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:23,500
Well, I have mad respect for you, man.

338
00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:25,640
So when you show up, so when you

339
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,660
show up, does that mean a format change

340
00:10:27,660 --> 00:10:28,380
is weeks away?

341
00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:30,720
Someone's getting fired.

342
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,200
Your morning guy is no good.

343
00:10:32,940 --> 00:10:33,080
Yeah.

344
00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:34,240
It's never good when you see me on

345
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:34,480
the door.

346
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:36,500
No, uh, no, it was, it was more,

347
00:10:36,540 --> 00:10:38,180
uh, to keep a, you know, a check

348
00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:39,420
on, on how things were doing.

349
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:40,840
And, you know, I've done that in radio.

350
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:41,720
I've done that in TV.

351
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,080
I've done that in pretty much every major

352
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,280
media, but I've been, uh, exclusively digital audio

353
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:48,300
for the last 20 years.

354
00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:49,240
Oh, okay.

355
00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:51,260
So where did you start in digital audio?

356
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,260
Was that the days of real audio?

357
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,580
No, um, that was still kind of doing,

358
00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:57,880
doing the thing that I do.

359
00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,180
Um, and that was, uh, during my time

360
00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:03,920
with Edison research, I, I joined Edison in,

361
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,360
uh, 2004.

362
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,320
I had, I had, uh, actually gone back

363
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:07,740
to school.

364
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,300
I went back and got an MBA in

365
00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:09,960
consumer behavior.

366
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,280
So I knew what I was talking about.

367
00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:14,180
And, uh, when I finished that, uh, I

368
00:11:14,180 --> 00:11:17,280
went to work for Edison in 2004 and,

369
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,600
and, uh, ended up really building that, uh,

370
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,460
their digital audio practice, which, you know, podcasting

371
00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:23,700
was obviously a huge part of it.

372
00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:25,580
So this is the start of my 20th

373
00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:26,520
year in podcasting.

374
00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:27,740
Not quite as long as you have.

375
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:28,400
Oh, that's awesome.

376
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,120
Well, I'll have, you know, I have, I

377
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,980
have a degree from the Connecticut school of

378
00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:32,520
broadcasting.

379
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,080
So yeah, CSB.

380
00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:34,740
I know it well.

381
00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:35,100
Yeah.

382
00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:37,100
Uh, what was the guy's name who ran

383
00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:37,400
that?

384
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,480
Uh, bill bulbous bill, we called him.

385
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:40,700
Did you ever meet him?

386
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:41,920
No.

387
00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:43,840
Uh, I actually have never been on the

388
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,640
campus there, but I'm, I certainly met many

389
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:51,200
people, the campus, the campus, the assemblage of,

390
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,200
uh, domiciles.

391
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:53,300
Yes, exactly.

392
00:11:53,940 --> 00:11:54,260
Exactly.

393
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:55,040
Bulb.

394
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,100
He had this big bulbous red nose and

395
00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:59,460
we, and we just called him, Hey, bulbous

396
00:11:59,460 --> 00:11:59,640
bill.

397
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:00,160
How you doing?

398
00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:01,660
And he, I forget he, I was at

399
00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:03,120
MTV and he said, Oh, come on by

400
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:03,860
and do a seminar.

401
00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:04,340
I'm like, whatever.

402
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:05,040
Okay.

403
00:12:05,660 --> 00:12:06,880
You know, I'm sure he loved that.

404
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:07,920
Oh, of course.

405
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:08,740
Bill was a great guy.

406
00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:10,240
I don't know if he's still doing that

407
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,500
or not, but then he, he gave me

408
00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:13,760
the, he gave me a, a certificate.

409
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,600
I'm a graduate honorary degree.

410
00:12:16,220 --> 00:12:17,660
So here's another thing I'm going to drop

411
00:12:17,660 --> 00:12:19,280
on you, Adam, which you did not know.

412
00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:22,020
Uh, during that time, uh, when I was

413
00:12:22,020 --> 00:12:24,040
doing research for, you know, I was doing

414
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,780
research for radio stations, for podcasting, audio books,

415
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:27,200
you name it.

416
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,920
Uh, at one point in the two thousands,

417
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,380
I did music research for radio Veronica, which

418
00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:37,100
I believe, you know.

419
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:39,720
Yeah, wait, but I was gone by then

420
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,720
because you were, you were, you were, you

421
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,460
were gone by who was, who was your

422
00:12:43,460 --> 00:12:44,400
contact over there?

423
00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:46,160
Oh, you're asking me to remember something.

424
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,220
Unico, Unico, Unico glory.

425
00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:48,660
Yeah.

426
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:50,760
How funny.

427
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:52,840
Yeah, no, this is, this is after, after

428
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,700
Veronica left the, uh, the, the literal pirate

429
00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:58,560
ship, uh, and became a, you know, respectable

430
00:12:58,560 --> 00:12:59,200
organization.

431
00:12:59,440 --> 00:12:59,580
Yeah.

432
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:00,960
Well, I was there when they were respectable

433
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,980
organization, but this is when they went commercial.

434
00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:05,180
They went, were they on am only at

435
00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:05,580
the time?

436
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:06,560
Hmm.

437
00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:07,460
I don't think so.

438
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,000
No, but again, what is this?

439
00:13:10,060 --> 00:13:11,040
What is radio Veronica?

440
00:13:11,340 --> 00:13:12,800
Um, you're leaving me out here.

441
00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:13,300
Oh, I'm sorry.

442
00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:15,720
So radio Veronica was one of the many,

443
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,980
uh, pirate ships in the North sea, um,

444
00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:21,880
in international waters like radio, me amigo, radio

445
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,220
Caroline, and all the kids would be listening

446
00:13:24,220 --> 00:13:27,380
to it on, on their long wave radios

447
00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:30,480
because, you know, it's because obviously, um, you

448
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,080
know, people have to have high fidelity to

449
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,540
enjoy music, but no, that proved it because

450
00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:36,620
there was plenty of FM in, in the

451
00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:38,560
domestic countries, but there was, it was all,

452
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,740
uh, government controls and it sucks.

453
00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:43,500
And so they, these, they were these outlaws

454
00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:45,860
and the way you get into the public

455
00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:48,100
system in the Netherlands, you have to have,

456
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:50,900
uh, an X amount of members and members

457
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:53,480
were counted by you subscribing to their TV

458
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:53,960
guide.

459
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,480
So there were literally 15 TV guides and

460
00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:58,700
you had to be a member for, I

461
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,640
think, five guilders at the time, maybe 10

462
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,000
guilders a month.

463
00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:05,220
And so they, they were so popular that

464
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:07,700
there were these huge demonstrations in the Hague

465
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,660
where the government system, like, you know, make

466
00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:11,620
Veronica legal, bring them on board.

467
00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:14,120
And so they just collected enough people spending

468
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,500
their 10 guilders a month, um, to become,

469
00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:20,080
um, uh, an official part of the Dutch

470
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,040
broadcasting system.

471
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,980
And they grew like wildfire.

472
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,100
I mean, they had, they had, I think,

473
00:14:25,180 --> 00:14:27,420
2 million members of their magazine for a

474
00:14:27,420 --> 00:14:28,480
country of 14 million.

475
00:14:28,580 --> 00:14:29,400
That's quite a lot.

476
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,460
At the time it was 14 million.

477
00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:34,120
And, uh, and so that's when I came

478
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,640
in and they really only, they had radio

479
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,840
and that's why they had only Friday and,

480
00:14:40,020 --> 00:14:41,440
but they were given TV too, and they

481
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,120
didn't know what to do.

482
00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:43,180
So they said, well, we'll just do some

483
00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:43,980
music on television.

484
00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:45,940
That's how I started with the countdown show.

485
00:14:46,180 --> 00:14:48,320
And then later they went out when you

486
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,840
could do commercial radio in the Netherlands, because

487
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,280
I think, you know, be careful what you

488
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:52,780
wish for.

489
00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:55,920
Uh, so then they, they jumped out and

490
00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,100
they went as a commercial station and then

491
00:14:58,100 --> 00:14:59,980
RTL bought them is a whole mess.

492
00:14:59,980 --> 00:15:02,820
The brand is now effectively dead.

493
00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:04,920
So good work, Tom.

494
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:06,380
On the advice.

495
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,020
And it's, I was sort of consulting.

496
00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:09,760
Yeah.

497
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,400
I was the Ted McGinley of radio.

498
00:15:11,460 --> 00:15:13,080
I, when I, when I, uh, when I

499
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,320
came into your sitcom, you knew it was

500
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:15,360
in the last season.

501
00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:17,940
So what's really, what's really cool now that

502
00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:20,340
I hear all this backstory, uh, and I

503
00:15:20,340 --> 00:15:22,380
do want to, I want to hear about,

504
00:15:22,380 --> 00:15:25,340
uh, sounds profitable, but in essence we are

505
00:15:25,340 --> 00:15:29,040
getting a $10,000 free consultant to visit

506
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,440
from a consultant who knows what he's talking

507
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:31,820
about.

508
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,640
Well, when you put it that way, uh,

509
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,700
$10,000 or however many Gilders, um, the

510
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:40,020
Gilder no longer exists.

511
00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:41,200
A lot, a lot of Gilders.

512
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:41,480
Yeah.

513
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,360
There aren't any more Gilders.

514
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,500
So, so poor one out.

515
00:15:44,580 --> 00:15:46,700
So when did you start a sounds profitable?

516
00:15:47,380 --> 00:15:49,520
Uh, so I did not start sounds profitable.

517
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,960
My partner, Brian Barletta started it almost five

518
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:53,380
years ago.

519
00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:55,520
And I joined up about three years ago.

520
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,980
And you know, when Brian started it, it

521
00:15:57,980 --> 00:15:59,580
was, it was kind of an ad tech

522
00:15:59,580 --> 00:16:00,020
newsletter.

523
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,100
Um, but we had this idea together that

524
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:06,460
we could build the thing that podcasting really

525
00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:09,900
lacked, which was a trade association for the

526
00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:10,860
industry side.

527
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,020
And well, and you, and you laugh because

528
00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:17,620
yeah, you laugh because, uh, it is, it's

529
00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:18,940
really been herding cats.

530
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,660
I mean, cats are more cooperative, uh, to

531
00:16:21,660 --> 00:16:23,460
try to, to put an organization like that

532
00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:23,760
together.

533
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,240
So we just sort of built the thing,

534
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,300
uh, until it got big enough that, that,

535
00:16:27,460 --> 00:16:28,840
uh, we just kind of declared it.

536
00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:30,740
Well, here's, here's an odd question then.

537
00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:32,580
How come we've never spoken before?

538
00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:34,340
If you're going to build a trade organization,

539
00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:35,980
I think you would have at least sent

540
00:16:35,980 --> 00:16:36,600
me an email.

541
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,380
Well, see now.

542
00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:42,300
Not that I would have done anything with

543
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:42,480
it.

544
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,240
Well, there's a, there's a very distinct focus,

545
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,560
I think, to, uh, I think to where

546
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,040
sounds profitable started.

547
00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:52,540
Um, and that, you know, it definitely started

548
00:16:52,540 --> 00:16:53,420
on the ad tech side.

549
00:16:53,420 --> 00:16:55,420
And that's, that's where it grew out of,

550
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,340
but it's, it has grown out of that.

551
00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,480
And now you and I are talking, I

552
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,480
mean, ultimately my, my personal mission in all

553
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,180
of this, and I've said this repeatedly is

554
00:17:05,180 --> 00:17:07,880
to do what I can to remove obstacles,

555
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,700
promote the medium and grow podcasting so that

556
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,400
it is actually a source of careers for

557
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:14,640
people.

558
00:17:14,740 --> 00:17:15,619
I want people to be able to have

559
00:17:15,619 --> 00:17:16,839
a career in podcasting.

560
00:17:16,859 --> 00:17:19,400
And I, I, I remember a couple of

561
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,240
years ago I was flying, um, back home

562
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:23,859
from Toronto and I'd, I'd gone to speak,

563
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:25,900
I think at, uh, radio days, North America

564
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:26,380
in Toronto.

565
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,120
And I was coming back through us customs

566
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:30,580
at Pearson airport.

567
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,780
And the customs officer asked me, I was,

568
00:17:33,860 --> 00:17:35,040
and I had global entry cause I've had

569
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:35,600
it for years.

570
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:35,860
Right.

571
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:37,480
And I, I'm going through the global entry

572
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,120
line and the customs officer asks me, what

573
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:40,860
do you do for a living?

574
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,240
And, uh, I don't know, I was possessed

575
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,880
by a demon or something.

576
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,580
And I just said, I'm a podcaster.

577
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,620
And he looked at me, he goes, and

578
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:50,380
you, you have global entry.

579
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,100
This is what I'm trying to fix.

580
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:54,600
Adam Curry.

581
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,060
This is exactly what I'm trying to fix.

582
00:17:58,440 --> 00:17:59,220
Well, okay.

583
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,820
Thank you for clarifying that because, um, when

584
00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:06,600
I, to me sounds profitable is I thought

585
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:07,740
it was still ad tech.

586
00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:09,900
And so I guess it sounds like you're,

587
00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:11,620
what you're saying is that it's, it's grown

588
00:18:11,620 --> 00:18:13,560
into to be a different thing now.

589
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,320
It has, you know, I mean, we put

590
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,020
out a lot of, you know, obviously research

591
00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:19,820
is sort of the, the hammer that everything

592
00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:20,760
looks like a nail to me.

593
00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:21,900
So we do a lot of that now.

594
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:25,240
Um, and it's, it's really all about insights,

595
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:28,620
advocacy, uh, and trying to promote, you know,

596
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,720
and trying to get in front of buyers.

597
00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:31,580
And that is not necessarily your world.

598
00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:34,160
And that's probably why, uh, we have not

599
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,880
necessarily crossed paths, but, uh, you know, we're

600
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,080
trying to remove the obstacles that, uh, brands

601
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,120
and buyers and advertisers have to investing in

602
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:45,780
the space because the more money gets invested,

603
00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:47,000
the more careers can happen.

604
00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:48,020
So who pays you?

605
00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:50,900
How does sounds profitable become profitable?

606
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,080
Yeah.

607
00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:53,900
Well, there's, there's two income streams.

608
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,580
One, uh, we have a very profitable, uh,

609
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,420
methamphetamine.

610
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:00,620
Oh yeah.

611
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,880
You have been on radio, Tom Webster.

612
00:19:02,980 --> 00:19:03,820
You can't lie to me.

613
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,000
These jokes are too good.

614
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:05,660
These are good.

615
00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:06,960
They're, they're not that good.

616
00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:09,220
Um, no, I mean, this is sort of,

617
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,900
I think the, the, the genius that Brian

618
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,540
had when he started it, uh, there's a

619
00:19:14,540 --> 00:19:16,060
flat structure to sounds profitable.

620
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:17,020
It's all partnership.

621
00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:18,760
It's a flat 500 bucks a month.

622
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:19,840
That's it.

623
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,340
And it doesn't matter if you're SXM or,

624
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:26,980
uh, just starting out production company or, uh,

625
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,580
or, you know, an ad tech tool company.

626
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:29,980
It's, it's the same for everybody.

627
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:31,520
Wow.

628
00:19:32,620 --> 00:19:33,100
Okay.

629
00:19:33,220 --> 00:19:35,100
And what do they, and what, what do

630
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:36,540
they get for that money?

631
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:41,760
Just your, they get your, uh, industry, uh,

632
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,700
sort of inter engagement in order to build

633
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,420
the industry to then hopefully get to raise

634
00:19:48,420 --> 00:19:49,420
their ship as well.

635
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:50,240
Is that the thinking?

636
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,740
Well, you know, they get, first of all,

637
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,060
they brush up against, uh, my aura, which

638
00:19:55,060 --> 00:19:56,060
I think you're feeling now.

639
00:19:58,340 --> 00:19:58,740
Yeah.

640
00:19:59,260 --> 00:20:00,900
Uh, well, I mean, there's some, there are

641
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:01,720
some tangible benefits.

642
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,300
I mean, yeah, there are the altruistic benefits

643
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:06,320
that, uh, you know, supporting us is helping

644
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,520
to, you know, we've had a, uh, we've

645
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,380
established a major presence at South by the

646
00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:11,700
last three years that keeps growing.

647
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:13,580
We're footing the bill for that and we're

648
00:20:13,580 --> 00:20:15,820
getting, uh, all of our partners involved with

649
00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:15,940
it.

650
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,320
So we're getting, you know, we're getting podcasting

651
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:18,980
in front of people.

652
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,100
Basically, we're doing all we can in non

653
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:21,960
-podcasting events.

654
00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:23,660
Were you getting USAID money?

655
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,720
So, uh, no, no, I, I understand that's

656
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,120
hard and harder and harder to come by.

657
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:30,220
Uh, so we're not getting...

658
00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:32,060
Podcasting NGO is what they do.

659
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,380
No, but do you, um, this, this is

660
00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:37,660
interesting.

661
00:20:37,660 --> 00:20:41,340
So if you are, um, so if you're

662
00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:46,760
an advertiser, uh, you, you want something like

663
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,320
Sounds Profitable to be what the Podcast Academy

664
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,300
tried to be, but has regularly failed to

665
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:54,000
come to fruition.

666
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:55,640
Yeah, I think so.

667
00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:57,620
I mean, I, I think, you know, we

668
00:20:57,620 --> 00:21:00,480
are, uh, you know, personally in my, in

669
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,320
my career, in my speaking and the things

670
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,540
that I've done, I've tried to serve the

671
00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:06,060
individual creator, uh, as much as I can

672
00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:07,940
throughout the entire 20 years I've been in

673
00:21:07,940 --> 00:21:08,360
the space.

674
00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:11,540
Um, and you know, I've, in some cases

675
00:21:11,540 --> 00:21:13,800
I've, you know, robbed from the rich to

676
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:14,380
give to the poor.

677
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:14,660
Right.

678
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,900
Um, but, uh, you know, ultimately in, in

679
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:22,340
almost any agency, there's a champion for podcasting

680
00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:26,200
and we want to equip that champion with

681
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,260
everything that we can with, you know, credible

682
00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:32,000
research, uh, industry insights to, to equip them

683
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,820
to be able to go in and convince

684
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:35,960
their, you know, whether it's the leader of

685
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,080
their brand team or an, or an advertiser

686
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:39,920
that the podcasting is a great place to

687
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,400
spend your money.

688
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,060
So that's a part of what we do.

689
00:21:42,340 --> 00:21:45,440
Uh, partners also get consulting partners, get access

690
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,320
to our research database, which is this incredible

691
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,500
searchable archive of stuff that I've built.

692
00:21:51,020 --> 00:21:53,060
Um, and they get access to private events.

693
00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:55,500
They get access to our Slack channel, which

694
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:58,260
has over 2000, uh, industry insiders in it.

695
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,200
Uh, it's pretty active.

696
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,100
Um, you know, we're all going to be

697
00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:02,360
a podcast movement evolutions.

698
00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:04,840
We maintain a lounge there at all of

699
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,920
the major podcasting events that our partners get

700
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,220
access to, to, uh, you know, have meetings

701
00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:09,980
and things like that.

702
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:12,900
Um, so, you know, we, we've tried to

703
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:16,700
build a community that at least shares a

704
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:18,500
common goal of promoting the space, even if

705
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:20,140
they have different means and measures to do

706
00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:20,380
so.

707
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,200
So I'm sorry, Dick, I was just going

708
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,860
to say, it's being in the advertising industry.

709
00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:28,660
It's like, it feels like being, um, like

710
00:22:28,660 --> 00:22:32,660
a tax collector, like the people benefiting from

711
00:22:32,660 --> 00:22:35,540
what you're doing, complain about the difficulty of

712
00:22:35,540 --> 00:22:38,660
the process and the complexity of, you know,

713
00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:39,880
the buying and all that kind of stuff.

714
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:41,960
And then the people that actually pay for

715
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,860
it, you know, by their listening or watching

716
00:22:43,860 --> 00:22:45,220
the ads, hate the experience.

717
00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:48,160
It's like, it feels like sometimes I'm just

718
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,600
imagining being in the advertising industry in general,

719
00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:52,520
probably you probably get hate from both sides.

720
00:22:53,420 --> 00:22:55,300
Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, you

721
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:57,640
know, I certainly want to promote the medium

722
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,900
and I want to talk about why it's

723
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:01,140
a great place to put your money, why

724
00:23:01,140 --> 00:23:02,540
it's a great place to invest so that

725
00:23:02,540 --> 00:23:03,520
creators can get paid.

726
00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:07,180
On the other hand, it's not easy, right?

727
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,720
Uh, it, you know, we still don't have

728
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,640
great tools to monetize the incredible long tail.

729
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,400
Most of podcasting is long tail, right?

730
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,140
You know, and we don't really have great

731
00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:20,540
tools to, uh, to open access up to

732
00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:23,160
that in a way that's, uh, you know,

733
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,240
acceptable to a lot of advertisers.

734
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,540
And that's something I'd like to change.

735
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:28,780
Well, so this is interesting because when you

736
00:23:28,780 --> 00:23:32,400
say tools, that means measurement, I'm presuming, um,

737
00:23:32,980 --> 00:23:35,920
the, the feeling I've had for a long

738
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,600
time, and I, um, uh, I used to

739
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,400
be on the advertising or on the, uh,

740
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,480
advertising based content side.

741
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:46,300
I built a company, uh, didn't exit, didn't

742
00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:46,980
do so well.

743
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,380
It was very difficult for a whole bunch

744
00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:48,920
of reasons.

745
00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:53,820
Um, I, I'm always thinking that, you know,

746
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,680
we started off with this horrible metric, this

747
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,120
metric called downloads, and that's pretty much what

748
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:02,240
the industry has standardized on.

749
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:06,840
And the feeling I get is that people

750
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,620
don't actually want to know the real numbers

751
00:24:10,620 --> 00:24:13,680
of people listening because it will probably be

752
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,520
significantly less than the downloads.

753
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:19,040
Yeah.

754
00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:20,840
You know, we've already been through a period

755
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:21,900
of time like that, right?

756
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,680
I mean, there have been a number of,

757
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,420
uh, haircuts that people have taken on their

758
00:24:26,420 --> 00:24:27,140
download numbers.

759
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,820
And, and, you know, if you're with a

760
00:24:28,820 --> 00:24:32,320
podcast host that adheres to the IAB certifications

761
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,700
for what counts as a download, right?

762
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:36,760
You know, minimum of, you know, X number

763
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,080
of seconds within 24 hours and yada, yada,

764
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:39,340
yada.

765
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,520
Uh, that, that measure gets better and better

766
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,020
and better.

767
00:24:43,020 --> 00:24:46,240
Uh, what irks me though, is when I

768
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,980
hear these arguments from people and yet they're

769
00:24:48,980 --> 00:24:51,020
still buying radio and have you looked at

770
00:24:51,020 --> 00:24:53,160
how radio ratings are done or have you

771
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,960
looked at how TV ratings are done?

772
00:24:55,220 --> 00:24:58,300
Oh, they're shambolic compared to what podcasting has.

773
00:24:58,420 --> 00:24:59,980
So, you know, a part of it is

774
00:24:59,980 --> 00:25:00,680
making them better.

775
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:00,980
Yes.

776
00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:02,420
But another part of it is just like,

777
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:03,640
come on, wake up.

778
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:04,540
What's your real reason?

779
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,320
So, okay.

780
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:06,660
Well, that, that is my question.

781
00:25:06,860 --> 00:25:09,280
What is the real reason that, is it

782
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,140
because they can't get a single source?

783
00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:14,220
Uh, they feel more comfortable with a big

784
00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:15,280
company like Google.

785
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,180
Uh, what, what, what do you see is

786
00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:19,240
the real reason?

787
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,380
Yeah, I think, you know, there's the reason

788
00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:23,360
there's the stated reason.

789
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:24,560
And then there's the actual reason.

790
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,200
I think the stated reason, uh, single source

791
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,400
does have a lot to do with it.

792
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:28,700
Right.

793
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,300
And, you know, I'm sure Adam, you know,

794
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,180
from your radio days, although, you know, I

795
00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:36,400
forget what the authority was in, in, uh,

796
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,660
the Netherlands that, that was.

797
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,140
Right.

798
00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:40,260
I know about Arbitron in the US.

799
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,460
Arbitron, which is now Nielsen.

800
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:44,780
And, you know, it is, uh, there are

801
00:25:44,780 --> 00:25:45,540
pluses and minuses.

802
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:45,780
Yes.

803
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,020
It's a single source of truth.

804
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,180
Uh, but as a, you know, veritable monopoly,

805
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:53,360
uh, it's sort of difficult to make changes

806
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:55,320
for the better, uh, changes for the better

807
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:56,900
do happen slowly over time.

808
00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:59,380
But, you know, the, the way that radio

809
00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:01,820
is measured in, in major markets is with

810
00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:04,520
a, you know, a little, uh, passive listening

811
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,240
device, uh, called the PPM.

812
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:07,660
It's like a little beeper kind of thing.

813
00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:10,780
And, uh, the problem with it is that,

814
00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:13,580
uh, the sample sizes are really, really small

815
00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:16,280
and, you know, and that actually had a

816
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,900
major impact on a lot of radio stations

817
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:22,320
that used to survive with low audiences, but

818
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,760
high time spent listening, right?

819
00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:25,960
Think like urban formats and smooth jazz and

820
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,520
things like that.

821
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,740
And, uh, you know, the sample sizes went

822
00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:30,360
down with PPM and some of those stations

823
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,240
became untenable because they wobble too much in

824
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:33,580
the rating.

825
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:34,760
So there's pluses and minuses.

826
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,120
Now that's the stated reason.

827
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:40,440
But underlying all of that is the number

828
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,640
one goal of, I think the average media

829
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,020
buyer, the average, um, you know, sort of

830
00:26:47,020 --> 00:26:48,820
brand team employee, the number one goal of

831
00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:51,240
all of them is this don't get fired

832
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,880
and doing what you have always done is

833
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,140
safer than all of a sudden moving new

834
00:26:58,140 --> 00:26:59,920
money into this medium that you haven't invested

835
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:00,160
in.

836
00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:02,180
So it's, uh, and that's not meant to,

837
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,580
you know, sort of denigrate an entire industry

838
00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:07,040
people, uh, you know, all at once.

839
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,620
I like to do it over time.

840
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:11,840
Um, but, uh, but it's, it's a valid

841
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:12,540
concern, right?

842
00:27:12,540 --> 00:27:14,120
It's, it's a lot of times, you know,

843
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,320
in bad times, people, there's a flight to

844
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,060
safety in terms of what they invest money

845
00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:19,320
in.

846
00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:21,280
Um, and we're trying to make the case

847
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,020
with the research that, that we're doing and

848
00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:25,480
everything else that podcasting is actually an incredibly

849
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,520
safe place to put your money.

850
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,620
So how do you get from that and

851
00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:30,940
that knowledge to it's the apps?

852
00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:33,720
Yeah, well, here's my concern.

853
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,500
Cause that's what you wrote about and I'm,

854
00:27:36,540 --> 00:27:38,340
I'm in agreement with you for a whole

855
00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:40,080
bunch of reasons, maybe different than yours.

856
00:27:40,580 --> 00:27:43,860
Uh, so were you just, uh, shaking the

857
00:27:43,860 --> 00:27:45,400
basket or what was the point?

858
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,040
No, I mean, well, I guess I kind

859
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,660
of was shaking the basket and I'm, I'm,

860
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,080
I was doing it really to shake, uh,

861
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:54,020
a number of baskets, right?

862
00:27:54,380 --> 00:27:55,780
I, you know, I guess I shook your

863
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:58,340
basket a tiny bit, but I'm hoping that

864
00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:00,060
I shake some baskets at the industry level

865
00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:00,300
though.

866
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:03,560
Um, and, and it's really because of this.

867
00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:05,580
We're not industry, Dave, we are.

868
00:28:05,740 --> 00:28:06,400
You're not, you're not.

869
00:28:06,580 --> 00:28:09,120
Thank you, Lord.

870
00:28:09,420 --> 00:28:11,560
You're not, I don't, I don't think you,

871
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,480
I don't think you want to be, um,

872
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,300
but here's the thing, right?

873
00:28:15,380 --> 00:28:18,040
You're all putting a lot of time and

874
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,380
passion into improving podcasting through the open RSS

875
00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:22,740
standard.

876
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,460
And what I see every year is the

877
00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:28,880
share for open RSS declining and the share

878
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,260
for closed systems like YouTube and Spotify, uh,

879
00:28:32,260 --> 00:28:33,420
growing and growing and growing.

880
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,080
And I think a lot of people have

881
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,060
gotten hung up on YouTube, uh, being, you

882
00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:41,380
know, really the number one source for podcasting

883
00:28:41,380 --> 00:28:41,640
now.

884
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,660
And by any measure, I think people have

885
00:28:43,660 --> 00:28:44,980
gotten hung up on the video part of

886
00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:45,180
that.

887
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,620
And I don't think it's just the video

888
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:46,760
part.

889
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:47,920
Interrupt you for one second.

890
00:28:48,340 --> 00:28:51,380
Um, Spotify is part of the open RSS

891
00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:52,060
ecosystem.

892
00:28:52,060 --> 00:28:54,920
I mean, I don't actually participate in myself

893
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,640
for other reasons, but you can just have

894
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,340
your RSS feed going to Spotify.

895
00:28:59,740 --> 00:29:01,840
So technically that's a part of the open

896
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:02,200
system.

897
00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:02,440
No.

898
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,700
Uh, I mean, are they, uh, how are

899
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:06,960
they doing with all of the, uh, all

900
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,500
of the tags you all are working on?

901
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:09,000
Irrelevant.

902
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:12,400
The content, the content, the content is, is

903
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,860
to me, it always comes down to the

904
00:29:14,860 --> 00:29:15,360
content.

905
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:16,860
Okay.

906
00:29:16,860 --> 00:29:18,960
So why work on podcasting 2.0 then?

907
00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:24,420
Well, we started the podcast index.

908
00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:26,360
Podcasting 2.0 is this show.

909
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,000
That's an important differentiator.

910
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,180
It kind of morphed into this is podcasting

911
00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,340
2.0, but we started the podcast index

912
00:29:33,340 --> 00:29:34,160
for one reason.

913
00:29:34,220 --> 00:29:36,700
And one reason only is that Apple had

914
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,560
become the center of the podcasting universe and

915
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,660
they were deciding what goes into podcasting or

916
00:29:42,660 --> 00:29:42,940
not.

917
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:45,520
They were deciding what content was okay.

918
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,740
And in fact, there was a, a recent

919
00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:52,740
example of, uh, Andrew Tate's podcasts or episodes

920
00:29:52,740 --> 00:29:54,080
being taken off of Spotify.

921
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:56,340
And we simply won't do that.

922
00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:58,280
We're, we're just, unless you're breaking a U

923
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,480
S law, we're not going to do that.

924
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,000
So that's the main reason we did it.

925
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,480
And what came from that is all these

926
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,480
developers who had ideas who said, I want

927
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,960
this, I want this, I want this.

928
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,380
And then Dave and I never set out

929
00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:12,000
to do this.

930
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:13,840
We just rolled with it and went, okay,

931
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,520
we'll kind of coordinate that and we'll see

932
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:16,040
what we can do.

933
00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:19,280
And that has become colloquially the, the podcasting

934
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,980
2.0 group, but really, and you know,

935
00:30:22,020 --> 00:30:23,600
with some apps that came along with it,

936
00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:25,900
but there was never a mission of we're

937
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:27,280
going to do X, Y, and Z.

938
00:30:27,380 --> 00:30:29,420
Other than we want to have an open

939
00:30:29,420 --> 00:30:32,440
index where developers can come, can do whatever

940
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,060
they want.

941
00:30:33,140 --> 00:30:35,860
And that's probably the most enjoyable.

942
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,580
And at the same time, most disappointing.

943
00:30:39,220 --> 00:30:43,360
The enjoyable part is we've seen enormous successes

944
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,740
with, uh, music, uh, Ellen beats being in

945
00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:48,800
my mind, a success.

946
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,580
Now, a success means a group of people

947
00:30:51,580 --> 00:30:52,220
who are happy.

948
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,260
Um, the fountain app I think is a,

949
00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:57,860
is a runaway success for the people who

950
00:30:57,860 --> 00:30:59,620
want to use that and want to do

951
00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:02,320
value for value and want to use the

952
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,100
lightning network.

953
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,060
It's they're, they're running a great show over

954
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:06,340
there.

955
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:07,460
They love it.

956
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,540
And the people who use it, love it.

957
00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:11,260
And that to me is success.

958
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,400
I don't think we, Dave and I ever

959
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,600
had the idea of, well, this is going

960
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,320
to change podcasting knowing fully well that Apple

961
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,480
is slow to move.

962
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,960
And quite frankly, I was blown away when

963
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,760
they implemented the transcript tag.

964
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,640
I was like, Oh, I would never expected

965
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:26,980
that.

966
00:31:27,540 --> 00:31:29,980
So, but it, but when it comes to

967
00:31:29,980 --> 00:31:34,640
success, it's always the content that drives everything.

968
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,300
And that often is left out of the

969
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:36,980
conversation.

970
00:31:36,980 --> 00:31:38,300
You know, it's like, well, the apps are

971
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:38,720
this now.

972
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,400
I mean, there there's only so many good

973
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,220
pieces of content that people listen to and

974
00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:46,620
people want to advertise on.

975
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:49,180
And it's very segmented, just like everything else.

976
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,280
You know, look at the streamers, look at

977
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,100
the networks, look at radio.

978
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:55,680
There's so much choice now that you have

979
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,880
to redefine what success is.

980
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,700
And I think that's what I'm looking for

981
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:00,940
is what do you call success?

982
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,820
What do you call good?

983
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,460
And well, here's my, here's my concern, Adam.

984
00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:08,820
And that is, and I say this not

985
00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:11,300
as a slam against YouTube, but really as

986
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:12,560
an incredible compliment to YouTube.

987
00:32:13,020 --> 00:32:14,460
YouTube has built a hell of an app.

988
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:17,280
And the podcasting industry has gotten a little

989
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,780
bit hung up on the video part of

990
00:32:18,780 --> 00:32:20,880
it and not the every single other part

991
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,440
of it that makes it a great app.

992
00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:25,260
And the more, uh, you know, as, as

993
00:32:25,260 --> 00:32:28,120
people, more and more people discover podcasting, they

994
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,180
never have to download a podcast app.

995
00:32:30,260 --> 00:32:32,220
They never have to even know that one

996
00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:32,900
exists.

997
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,320
That's, um, that's right.

998
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:35,200
They're just going to YouTube.

999
00:32:35,380 --> 00:32:37,120
And here's, here's my issue with that.

1000
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,160
My issue with that is the future of

1001
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,140
audio and with the radio industry in incredible

1002
00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:43,920
decline, right?

1003
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,060
It has declined every single year for about

1004
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:48,700
the fifth, the last 15 straight, uh, you

1005
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:51,320
know, numbers under 35 are really, really not

1006
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:51,860
great, right?

1007
00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:53,500
The radio industry is going down.

1008
00:32:54,020 --> 00:32:55,720
Spotify's focus is music.

1009
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,740
YouTube's focus is video.

1010
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,160
Uh, where, where are people going to get

1011
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,000
the audio habit?

1012
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:05,040
How is spoken word audio going to remain

1013
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,020
a part of people's lives if it's not

1014
00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:08,480
getting put in front of them every day?

1015
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:10,360
And increasingly it's not.

1016
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,460
And so my concern is that the, that

1017
00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:15,660
the podcasting industry such as it is, or

1018
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:17,040
those of us that have a stake in

1019
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,780
it, uh, do what we can to showcase

1020
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:21,900
audio and do what we can to showcase

1021
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:24,080
the communities that can build around audio and

1022
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,060
make those more visible, make them easier to

1023
00:33:26,060 --> 00:33:28,460
use so that people don't just default to,

1024
00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:30,720
to apps, which yes, you can get the

1025
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,960
content, but that's not their main job.

1026
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:35,460
It's fun.

1027
00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:37,820
I was, you know, if you think about,

1028
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,400
um, you can make the case that Apple

1029
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,360
is the number one defense against this thing

1030
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,780
that you're describing, uh, but merely by the

1031
00:33:49,780 --> 00:33:52,040
fact that they have a, an app on

1032
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,320
the phone by default that just, that is

1033
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,420
called podcasts.

1034
00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:58,320
But I mean that so that when somebody

1035
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,800
says, Hey, I was listening to this podcast

1036
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,680
and here's the name of it and here

1037
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,920
it was really cool.

1038
00:34:05,460 --> 00:34:08,080
And you flip open your phone, the first

1039
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,400
place you're going to go is you're going

1040
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,320
to tap on the podcast, but you know,

1041
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,780
app, because that's what they're calling it.

1042
00:34:13,820 --> 00:34:16,739
They're calling it a podcast, but that's really,

1043
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,420
you know, so you can make, you can

1044
00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:21,380
make the case in that framework that, that

1045
00:34:21,380 --> 00:34:25,380
Apple has been the main bulwark against the

1046
00:34:25,380 --> 00:34:29,820
sort of subsuming of podcasting into closed systems.

1047
00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:32,719
I mean, cause like I was reading your,

1048
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,719
I was reading your article, um, uh, the

1049
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,520
new one you put out this week and,

1050
00:34:39,060 --> 00:34:41,880
um, you made this comment, you said, uh,

1051
00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:46,659
that the shortest path, he said, uh, you

1052
00:34:46,659 --> 00:34:48,199
were talking about, uh, Matt and you said

1053
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:49,760
he read my piece, had a reaction, then

1054
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,300
took the shortest path from idea to audience,

1055
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,940
meaning that he posted a video on YouTube.

1056
00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:59,720
I think initially I disagree, I disagreed with

1057
00:34:59,720 --> 00:34:59,920
you.

1058
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,700
And then I did.

1059
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,180
And then later I did agree with you,

1060
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:04,480
but I'm not sure if it's for the

1061
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,260
same reason.

1062
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:08,760
And so, um, what did you mean by

1063
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:09,740
shortest path?

1064
00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:11,300
Can you make a, define that?

1065
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:12,020
Yeah.

1066
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,380
So, um, basically all of the tools, you

1067
00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:18,200
know, Matt had an idea pop into his

1068
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:18,860
head, right.

1069
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,220
And, uh, and I've, I've looked, I've shared

1070
00:35:21,220 --> 00:35:21,600
this with him.

1071
00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:23,260
It was, it was not what I wrote.

1072
00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:25,140
So let's just establish that.

1073
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,720
Um, but, uh, the title of what I

1074
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:29,400
wrote, I think triggered an idea in his

1075
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,580
head and the, he wanted to get it

1076
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:33,860
out as fast as possible.

1077
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,340
And the, and this was how he did

1078
00:35:36,340 --> 00:35:36,700
it, right.

1079
00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:38,600
It was very easy to turn on the

1080
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,420
camera and, uh, and boom, all of a

1081
00:35:41,420 --> 00:35:42,700
sudden he's on YouTube and he's on YouTube.

1082
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:45,100
Uh, it was easier to put his content

1083
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:45,700
on YouTube.

1084
00:35:45,940 --> 00:35:47,860
It's easier to find his content on YouTube

1085
00:35:47,860 --> 00:35:49,840
and he has access to the largest potential

1086
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:50,700
audience on YouTube.

1087
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,140
And so without even thinking about it, it

1088
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:54,360
was his default reaction.

1089
00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:57,400
And I'm concerned about that for, for audio

1090
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,560
and for podcasting.

1091
00:35:58,780 --> 00:35:59,260
Okay.

1092
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:01,240
Let me, I'm glad to hear you.

1093
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:02,980
I'm glad to hear you explain that because

1094
00:36:02,980 --> 00:36:05,560
this is what, there's a lot wrapped up

1095
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:06,480
in what you just said.

1096
00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:09,140
I think that for, when it comes to

1097
00:36:09,140 --> 00:36:16,220
sort of, um, uh, the, like debundling some

1098
00:36:16,220 --> 00:36:18,420
of that stuff into individual pieces.

1099
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:20,540
I think some of those individual pieces really

1100
00:36:20,540 --> 00:36:23,140
matter because it would, because if you think

1101
00:36:23,140 --> 00:36:25,100
about it, um, what I was thinking initially

1102
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:27,440
when you said that was speed, I'm like,

1103
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,560
well, you know, I can, I can record

1104
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,220
an audio in, uh, I can record a

1105
00:36:32,220 --> 00:36:35,700
15 minute audio clip, upload it to, um,

1106
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:37,900
my podcast host and have it out in

1107
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:40,000
podcast apps in just as much time as,

1108
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,300
as YouTube as recording a YouTube video, perhaps

1109
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:45,400
quicker because I'm, I'm not so concerned about

1110
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,980
video edits, but then I'm like, well, but

1111
00:36:48,980 --> 00:36:51,740
here's the, it's really that last part that

1112
00:36:51,740 --> 00:36:54,460
you said, you, you said biggest potential audience.

1113
00:36:55,060 --> 00:36:57,020
And it's the last part that I think

1114
00:36:57,020 --> 00:36:58,960
is kind of the killer and something that

1115
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,320
we're going to have to deal with is

1116
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,800
that if I record audio, upload it to

1117
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,060
my podcast host, and then it gets distributed

1118
00:37:07,060 --> 00:37:10,900
out through the decentralized RSS ecosystem, then if

1119
00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:13,400
I want to share it, I don't know

1120
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:14,140
what to do.

1121
00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:17,560
Like it's that last step in the chain,

1122
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,380
because what, like what, what Matt did just

1123
00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:23,040
as an example, you know, record a video,

1124
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:25,620
post the link on social media to YouTube.

1125
00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:28,000
If I record an, if I record my

1126
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,420
podcast, what link am I going to share?

1127
00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:35,120
I mean, episodes.fm, a direct link to

1128
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,400
the Apple podcast web app.

1129
00:37:38,060 --> 00:37:43,560
There's this really hard, almost sometimes like impossible

1130
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,700
idea of that you hit where you're like,

1131
00:37:46,860 --> 00:37:48,940
well, how do I, how do I get

1132
00:37:48,940 --> 00:37:50,560
a link out to this to people?

1133
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:53,300
That's the benefit of the closed system is

1134
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:56,200
that it all goes through one entity.

1135
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:58,580
And so you always have one link.

1136
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:01,540
It's always a link to Twitter, a link

1137
00:38:01,540 --> 00:38:03,800
to YouTube, a link to Spotify.

1138
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,180
There's this one distribution link and podcasting.

1139
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,440
You have all, what your best hope is

1140
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,060
to get all these little badges for these

1141
00:38:13,060 --> 00:38:16,360
different podcast apps on something like episodes.fm

1142
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,140
because there's one, there's no one single, like,

1143
00:38:20,420 --> 00:38:22,600
um, you know, we've complained about this before.

1144
00:38:22,820 --> 00:38:25,880
There's no one single handler for this thing.

1145
00:38:25,940 --> 00:38:28,760
This like podcast colon slash slash, then something

1146
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,960
that opens your default app on every, on

1147
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:32,800
every platform.

1148
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,860
And so you, and you, you could say

1149
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:37,520
that that's a good thing in the sense

1150
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,280
that because there's no default podcast app way

1151
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,480
to specify that per device, that it's kept

1152
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,800
people from, it's kept YouTube even more at

1153
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,920
bay from taking over podcasting because they could

1154
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,420
just register themselves as the default podcast app

1155
00:38:53,420 --> 00:38:54,120
on your phone.

1156
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,860
And now the thing that, you know, now

1157
00:38:56,860 --> 00:38:59,780
we're all screwed, but at the same time,

1158
00:38:59,780 --> 00:39:01,880
it just really makes that last piece of

1159
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,280
the chain that you described.

1160
00:39:03,780 --> 00:39:06,360
That's, that's where everything seems to fall apart

1161
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,120
in my mind.

1162
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:08,440
Yeah.

1163
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,140
And if I could, you know, let me

1164
00:39:10,140 --> 00:39:11,620
just kind of shortcut to the end here

1165
00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:12,080
a little bit.

1166
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,580
If I could wave a magic wand, let

1167
00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:15,540
me tell you what I really want.

1168
00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:19,040
I would like, uh, the, you know, the

1169
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,840
publishers and the people investing, uh, money right

1170
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,860
now, all of a sudden to become video

1171
00:39:24,860 --> 00:39:28,660
podcast publishers to devote a chunk of that

1172
00:39:28,660 --> 00:39:33,980
money instead to collaboratively building an absolute showcase

1173
00:39:33,980 --> 00:39:36,420
app for podcasting that everybody promotes.

1174
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,220
And right now, you know, a number of

1175
00:39:39,220 --> 00:39:41,260
the publishers have their own apps, but in

1176
00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:43,120
some ways, they're dividing up the pie before

1177
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:43,640
it's baked.

1178
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,240
And if, if the industry could collaborate on,

1179
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,420
let's build a showcase for what podcasting could

1180
00:39:50,420 --> 00:39:50,780
be.

1181
00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:55,700
And that, uh, and that effort includes the

1182
00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:58,720
people working on the podcast namespace and podcast

1183
00:39:58,720 --> 00:39:59,660
index, right?

1184
00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:02,680
That everybody's working together for this so that

1185
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,880
you have developers working to make the tools

1186
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,680
easier for creators.

1187
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,660
You have interface designers making things more, uh,

1188
00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:12,440
more sticky for consumers.

1189
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,600
And we have, and we start to build

1190
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,540
all of the trappings of the things that

1191
00:40:16,540 --> 00:40:18,420
YouTube has been perfecting for years.

1192
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,080
And then, then we have something that really

1193
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,560
showcases podcasting for podcasting sake.

1194
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,180
And isn't just a feature on an otherwise

1195
00:40:26,180 --> 00:40:29,560
music app like Spotify, uh, or, you know,

1196
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,120
or whatever it is on YouTube.

1197
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,340
But I just, I feel like we're getting

1198
00:40:32,340 --> 00:40:33,480
distracted by video.

1199
00:40:33,740 --> 00:40:34,420
Well, okay.

1200
00:40:34,660 --> 00:40:37,580
Um, a couple of things.

1201
00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:42,180
So first some history, uh, in 2008, podcasting

1202
00:40:42,180 --> 00:40:43,020
was humming along.

1203
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,280
I've told this story before people were like,

1204
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:46,000
oh, this is great.

1205
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:46,860
This is fantastic.

1206
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:48,560
I'm listening to all these different voices, all

1207
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:49,860
these different kinds of shows.

1208
00:40:49,860 --> 00:40:53,520
And then YouTube comes and Facebook comes and

1209
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,240
Twitter comes and, uh, podcasting is page 23

1210
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:01,400
below the fold and it, it lingers along,

1211
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,720
grows five, maybe 10% year over year,

1212
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,120
just kind of hobbles along.

1213
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,540
Then all of a sudden 2014, 2016, uh,

1214
00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:12,060
we get cereal and cereal came at a

1215
00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:14,340
beautiful moment because we also had the streamers

1216
00:41:14,340 --> 00:41:16,360
coming in and people were showing up at

1217
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,540
the office, bleary eyed because they had been

1218
00:41:18,540 --> 00:41:21,000
binging five seasons of breaking bad.

1219
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,420
And here was true crime, arguably still the

1220
00:41:24,420 --> 00:41:27,180
most popular category in audio, uh, not video,

1221
00:41:27,220 --> 00:41:28,640
by the way in audio.

1222
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,080
And you couldn't binge it.

1223
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,660
You had to wait for the next episode

1224
00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:34,200
became water cooler talk.

1225
00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:38,920
Um, the most powerful sentence in broadcasting across

1226
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,240
the spectrum is wherever you get your podcasts

1227
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:42,520
and my experience.

1228
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,780
Um, and I could easily, I could easily

1229
00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:46,520
go with ads.

1230
00:41:46,620 --> 00:41:49,740
It doesn't really matter, but there's 800,000

1231
00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:51,280
to a million people a week who listened

1232
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:52,440
to the no agenda show.

1233
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,440
And, um, we've only ever done audio, but

1234
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,260
if you look at the stats for whatever

1235
00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:01,980
they're worth, um, 11% listen on our

1236
00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:02,540
website.

1237
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,060
Um, 17% listen on pod verse because

1238
00:42:06,060 --> 00:42:07,640
I've talked about it and told them there's

1239
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,000
a better experience there.

1240
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,640
Um, but ultimately people are coming for the

1241
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,620
content back to the pirate ships.

1242
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,440
You could listen to all kinds of high

1243
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,580
fidelity stuff in the Netherlands, you know, uh,

1244
00:42:19,580 --> 00:42:22,400
on your portable radio, but people would go

1245
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,260
outside, aim their antennas to get the long

1246
00:42:25,260 --> 00:42:27,880
way version of the top 40 hits that

1247
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:28,540
they weren't getting.

1248
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,140
It's always about the content.

1249
00:42:30,140 --> 00:42:33,280
And I think what you're describing is a

1250
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,120
place where there's the long tail.

1251
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,560
So, Hey, you got some, you got something

1252
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,420
that 10 people like you're part of the

1253
00:42:39,420 --> 00:42:41,760
long tail, you know, uh, the, the buy

1254
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:42,620
makes more sense.

1255
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:44,800
You can buy across, you know, this huge

1256
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,060
swath of, um, of content.

1257
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:49,140
It doesn't really matter what it is as

1258
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:50,860
long as you get, you know, the metrics

1259
00:42:50,860 --> 00:42:51,240
done.

1260
00:42:51,380 --> 00:42:55,200
And I don't think that's, that's really what's

1261
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,000
going on here.

1262
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,380
Um, there's just like blogging, uh, people, you

1263
00:43:00,380 --> 00:43:02,400
know, people started blogging cause they had something

1264
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:02,900
to say.

1265
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:05,120
And then we had RSS feeds of blogging

1266
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:05,780
of blogs.

1267
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,560
And, uh, then it became like, well, I'll

1268
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,160
just start a blog and I'll stick some

1269
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:10,640
ads on it.

1270
00:43:10,660 --> 00:43:11,180
I'll make money.

1271
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:15,460
And it turns out that really isn't, that

1272
00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:16,640
really doesn't work that way.

1273
00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:19,520
People want to read or listen to, or

1274
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,560
watch things that they're genuinely interested in.

1275
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,980
And even, you know, your example of push

1276
00:43:25,980 --> 00:43:26,780
button radio.

1277
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,160
Well, yeah.

1278
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:30,600
I mean, you, you, you don't have one

1279
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:31,340
button on your radio.

1280
00:43:31,340 --> 00:43:33,200
You've got five or back in the day.

1281
00:43:33,340 --> 00:43:35,760
Now it's, now you have presets and, uh,

1282
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,360
oh, they're in ads.

1283
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:36,600
Boom.

1284
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:37,440
Want to click over here.

1285
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:38,420
Oh, I don't like that song.

1286
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:38,700
Boom.

1287
00:43:38,740 --> 00:43:39,420
I'm going to go over here.

1288
00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:40,120
I don't like what he's saying.

1289
00:43:40,220 --> 00:43:40,400
Boom.

1290
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:41,860
And you know, it's back and forth, back

1291
00:43:41,860 --> 00:43:42,880
and forth, back and forth.

1292
00:43:44,140 --> 00:43:47,300
Um, people come to content and content that

1293
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:51,820
is desirable will be marketable and will be

1294
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,080
interesting for advertisers.

1295
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:55,280
Now that we've kind of gotten rid of

1296
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,860
all the, uh, the deplatforming stuff.

1297
00:43:57,860 --> 00:43:59,320
I know you said a bad word or

1298
00:43:59,320 --> 00:43:59,580
whatever.

1299
00:43:59,580 --> 00:44:00,780
I think that's kind of gone by the

1300
00:44:00,780 --> 00:44:01,220
wayside.

1301
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,620
Advertisers are smarter than that.

1302
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,880
Advertisers are smart, but there's, there is no

1303
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,820
easy way for them to buy because there's

1304
00:44:09,820 --> 00:44:10,880
not a single platform.

1305
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,660
I think that's what you're describing where all

1306
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:16,000
audio goes into.

1307
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,100
And I just don't think that that matters.

1308
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,640
It's when people want some kind of content,

1309
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,260
they will jump through hoops.

1310
00:44:24,260 --> 00:44:27,800
They will beg, borrow, steal to get that

1311
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,080
content no matter where it is.

1312
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:32,440
And that's the thing that YouTube is not.

1313
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,300
YouTube is millions, hundreds of billions of videos

1314
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:38,800
of crap and an algorithm that keeps you

1315
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:39,480
stuck in it.

1316
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,500
And that's, you know, that's a great platform

1317
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:43,600
to advertise on because, you know, people are

1318
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,280
scrolling and TikTok does the same thing, basically

1319
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:47,040
Instagram.

1320
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,140
But audio is something that you sit down,

1321
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:50,780
you enjoy.

1322
00:44:50,780 --> 00:44:52,500
And I believe that if you take out

1323
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:55,680
the discoverability part, which you're correct on, there

1324
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,820
is no real discoverability other than what's always

1325
00:44:58,820 --> 00:45:01,100
worked in podcasting is, hey, if you heard

1326
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:02,420
that show, you're going to hear it from

1327
00:45:02,420 --> 00:45:04,520
a buddy that your research probably shows that.

1328
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,280
Rarely do people search for, I want a

1329
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,280
podcast that has X, Y, and Z and

1330
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:10,760
it pops up and they're good to go.

1331
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:13,580
The content is what is always left out

1332
00:45:13,580 --> 00:45:14,520
of this conversation.

1333
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,380
I don't care if it's audio, video, or

1334
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:17,920
a blog.

1335
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:19,660
The content is what matters.

1336
00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:23,060
Here's the sad truth about that, Adam, is

1337
00:45:23,060 --> 00:45:25,440
that, you know, you brought up radio and

1338
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,120
the five buttons and things like that.

1339
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:29,620
And, you know, I can tell you from

1340
00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:31,600
years and years of looking at consistent data,

1341
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,200
if you are listening to something at home,

1342
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:36,360
if you're listening to something at home, right?

1343
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,060
Most of the time today that we spend

1344
00:45:39,060 --> 00:45:41,200
listening to things at home, we are listening

1345
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,560
to streaming or podcasting.

1346
00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:45,840
We are listening to digital audio, right?

1347
00:45:46,100 --> 00:45:47,660
It's well over half of what we're listening

1348
00:45:47,660 --> 00:45:48,380
to, right?

1349
00:45:48,380 --> 00:45:52,400
Same people, same universe, same humans in the

1350
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,900
car, overwhelmingly AM, FM radio.

1351
00:45:55,220 --> 00:45:56,720
It's not just about the content.

1352
00:45:57,140 --> 00:45:59,300
People act differently when the apps are different.

1353
00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:01,260
People act differently in different environments.

1354
00:46:01,260 --> 00:46:04,160
It's just not easy enough in the car.

1355
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,720
Well, that's what I'm talking about.

1356
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:06,200
Okay.

1357
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:06,700
Okay.

1358
00:46:06,820 --> 00:46:07,320
Fair enough.

1359
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,840
I think we're in a transitionary period right

1360
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:10,200
now.

1361
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:13,800
And Sirius XM, they were very smart.

1362
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,340
They got all the car manufacturers on board

1363
00:46:16,340 --> 00:46:21,380
and probably a large initial portion of their

1364
00:46:21,380 --> 00:46:23,980
listeners came for the playlist.

1365
00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:25,480
We didn't really have an alternative.

1366
00:46:25,820 --> 00:46:27,540
We, I think we had Pandora kind of

1367
00:46:27,540 --> 00:46:30,460
at the time, didn't really have Spotify playlists

1368
00:46:30,460 --> 00:46:33,220
easy, which of course is, you know, secondarily,

1369
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:34,620
it's killing the artist.

1370
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,500
But then Howard Stern, he was the big

1371
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:39,080
driver for Sirius.

1372
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,920
And that industry has always been in dire

1373
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:43,360
straits.

1374
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,540
That's why they had to get together and

1375
00:46:45,540 --> 00:46:48,440
they've got expensive satellites and there's all kinds

1376
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,400
of financial issues they have.

1377
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,100
But they were in the cars.

1378
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,440
TuneIn tried to do this with radio stations

1379
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,640
and they found out that they couldn't really

1380
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,080
make a business out of it.

1381
00:47:01,740 --> 00:47:06,980
The in-car entertainment manufacturers, they tried a

1382
00:47:06,980 --> 00:47:07,960
lot of different things.

1383
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,600
And I think we're just now getting to

1384
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,720
the point where people are plugging in their

1385
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,520
smartphones, but they don't have a way to

1386
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:16,440
get radio yet.

1387
00:47:16,820 --> 00:47:19,380
I mean, TuneIn kind of, but they, and

1388
00:47:19,380 --> 00:47:22,400
I think the, it always comes down to

1389
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,160
the content in the car, which is what's

1390
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,760
the time, what's the traffic and what's the

1391
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:28,000
weather.

1392
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,060
I think that's why people are tuning into

1393
00:47:30,060 --> 00:47:31,180
radio in their cars.

1394
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:33,100
A hundred percent.

1395
00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:33,600
Yeah.

1396
00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:36,160
And that is something that podcasting has not

1397
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:36,860
cracked yet.

1398
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:39,000
It's fun.

1399
00:47:39,140 --> 00:47:43,680
This is an interesting conversation because if you

1400
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,340
think about one thing that caught my eye

1401
00:47:46,340 --> 00:47:49,300
over the last couple of weeks was this

1402
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:54,440
surge to, you know, these, these number ones,

1403
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,560
these charts from Apple and Spotify, they never

1404
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:57,760
really changed that much.

1405
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,480
I mean, Apple changes more than Spotify does

1406
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:05,580
because it's more of a popularity trending chart

1407
00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:08,980
than a, than an actual total listenership chart

1408
00:48:08,980 --> 00:48:09,680
and that kind of thing.

1409
00:48:10,180 --> 00:48:12,200
But Spotify one, especially is just, I mean,

1410
00:48:12,220 --> 00:48:12,860
it's Joe Rogan.

1411
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,460
I mean, it's Joe Rogan every single week

1412
00:48:15,460 --> 00:48:18,500
for years now is number one.

1413
00:48:18,580 --> 00:48:19,880
And then all of a sudden somebody else

1414
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,320
goes to number one and that always catches

1415
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:22,960
your attention because you're like, Whoa, okay, wait,

1416
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:23,760
something happened.

1417
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,720
And the Mel Robbins podcast went to number

1418
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:31,200
one on Spotify and in Apple's chart.

1419
00:48:31,940 --> 00:48:33,220
And so they caught my attention.

1420
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:34,400
I'm like, what, what is this?

1421
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:35,560
I mean, I've heard the name, but I

1422
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:36,620
don't know anything about this show.

1423
00:48:37,580 --> 00:48:40,080
So I go and just start doing a

1424
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,360
little bit of research on who this is.

1425
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,800
And, um, you know, find it, find myself

1426
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,920
on her website and just start looking through

1427
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,700
the content on the website.

1428
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:54,000
That's about her podcast content.

1429
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,940
And it reminded me.

1430
00:48:57,060 --> 00:48:59,840
So what I saw immediately was, I guess,

1431
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,040
you know, this is a, this is a,

1432
00:49:02,060 --> 00:49:04,140
the, the episodes were laid out in a

1433
00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:04,960
sort of grid.

1434
00:49:06,660 --> 00:49:11,200
Um, and then all the titles were, they

1435
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,820
look like they were right out of the

1436
00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:13,940
YouTube playbook.

1437
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,820
So one of the titles was six sneaky

1438
00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:18,620
ways people are disrespecting you.

1439
00:49:19,020 --> 00:49:20,840
And then another one was, if you're feeling

1440
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,940
uncertain and anxious, you need to hear this.

1441
00:49:23,540 --> 00:49:25,740
And, and the next one was get back

1442
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:26,180
on track.

1443
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,800
Five evening habits to wake up focused, recharged,

1444
00:49:28,820 --> 00:49:29,420
and in control.

1445
00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:32,740
These are all, these are, these are made

1446
00:49:32,740 --> 00:49:34,140
for YouTube titles.

1447
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,180
And it's like, you know, the, the listicle

1448
00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:41,940
format, um, all it's, all it was missing

1449
00:49:41,940 --> 00:49:44,120
was like the shocked face thumbnail, you know?

1450
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:47,300
Um, but yeah, it's like thing.

1451
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:47,820
Yep.

1452
00:49:48,060 --> 00:49:48,260
Right.

1453
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,500
But this, so what it reminded me of,

1454
00:49:50,580 --> 00:49:52,500
let me indulge me for a second here.

1455
00:49:54,020 --> 00:49:55,580
What it reminded me of is.

1456
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,840
So I went to a funeral a few

1457
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,280
years ago, the happy portion of the show.

1458
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:01,780
Yeah.

1459
00:50:02,100 --> 00:50:03,580
This is where we jazz everybody up.

1460
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:07,800
I went to a funeral, um, uh, a

1461
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,800
friend that lives near me, um, had a

1462
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,740
family member pass away.

1463
00:50:11,780 --> 00:50:12,420
So we go to the funeral.

1464
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,600
This is this huge, it's at a humongous

1465
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,180
mega church and I'm not a big church

1466
00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:17,440
guy.

1467
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,900
I'm like, we, we've, I've never been in,

1468
00:50:19,980 --> 00:50:20,640
in a big church.

1469
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,640
Um, and so in one, I mean one

1470
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,060
like gargantuan mega church.

1471
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,800
And so this is a church that's around

1472
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,280
here and I knew about it, but never

1473
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:30,520
been.

1474
00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:33,180
So the funeral's in this church and we

1475
00:50:33,180 --> 00:50:34,920
go in and then there's like the, the

1476
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,580
viewing, the bot, the viewing of the bot,

1477
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:37,820
the wake and all that kind of stuff.

1478
00:50:37,860 --> 00:50:40,520
And then later is the actual church service.

1479
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:42,940
And so the viewing and everything is in

1480
00:50:42,940 --> 00:50:45,940
this sort of side, uh, chapel area.

1481
00:50:45,940 --> 00:50:48,560
That's, uh, on one side of the parking

1482
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:48,800
lot.

1483
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,340
And then once that was over, everybody walks

1484
00:50:51,340 --> 00:50:55,040
across, uh, to the main sanctuary, which is

1485
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:55,720
gigantic.

1486
00:50:57,540 --> 00:51:01,180
And so, um, there's this, I become aware

1487
00:51:01,180 --> 00:51:05,160
of this like low level, um, there's speakers,

1488
00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:07,720
speaker systems throughout the whole entire campus.

1489
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,440
And I get this, I become aware of

1490
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:15,040
this like low level, like, um, note, this

1491
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,500
just sort of like playing out, you know,

1492
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,980
call it a, you know, call it a

1493
00:51:19,980 --> 00:51:20,660
C sharp.

1494
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,680
It's just playing all the time.

1495
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,020
Just so low, it's almost imperceptible.

1496
00:51:27,180 --> 00:51:30,640
And then we walk across into the main

1497
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,500
complex and there's this, there's still this, this

1498
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:38,800
note playing on, on, on this, uh, audio

1499
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,460
system throughout the entire church.

1500
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,560
We go in, we sit down, we start

1501
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,460
talking, uh, we, uh, they start doing the,

1502
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,960
you know, family start speaking, all this kind

1503
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:49,200
of stuff.

1504
00:51:49,460 --> 00:51:51,340
And then at one point in the funeral,

1505
00:51:51,980 --> 00:51:55,960
um, the praise band comes in and just,

1506
00:51:56,060 --> 00:52:00,840
and, and goes into this, the first song

1507
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,240
of, of a few that they played.

1508
00:52:02,740 --> 00:52:07,520
And it was the exact key, exact chord

1509
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,060
to fit that note.

1510
00:52:09,060 --> 00:52:12,300
And it was just like, boom, right.

1511
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:16,780
And you, you realize, I realized at that

1512
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:21,180
moment, I'm like, wait, this is all orchestrated.

1513
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,660
This is all one giant, like, this is

1514
00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:25,540
all connected.

1515
00:52:26,660 --> 00:52:30,120
Um, it's an, I've been living in for

1516
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,000
the last two hours in a connected experience.

1517
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,680
That's like so curated and, and sort of

1518
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:39,780
like manicured.

1519
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,260
And that's what I feel like with, with

1520
00:52:43,260 --> 00:52:47,060
what I'm seeing with YouTube and, and, and

1521
00:52:47,060 --> 00:52:48,540
its influences having a pocket.

1522
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,200
What's happened is people have become so good

1523
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:56,480
at seeing the YouTube algorithm and what it

1524
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,640
wants that they've perfected it now.

1525
00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:06,640
Um, and now it's, it's getting pushed into

1526
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:07,460
everything.

1527
00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:09,380
So it's like, it reminds you of that

1528
00:53:09,380 --> 00:53:11,380
Charles Taylor, the idea we talked about a

1529
00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:13,820
few weeks ago of every sort of paradigm

1530
00:53:13,820 --> 00:53:17,280
has built within it, uh, the ingredients that

1531
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,020
will ultimately cause people to shift away from

1532
00:53:20,020 --> 00:53:20,220
it.

1533
00:53:20,220 --> 00:53:23,040
Like it's inevitable that like, like these behavioral

1534
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,580
and social engineering tactics eventually will be discovered

1535
00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:28,260
and replicated.

1536
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,120
And then somebody comes along and brings it

1537
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,380
all together into this perfect package that just

1538
00:53:34,380 --> 00:53:36,740
like drives your brain off a cliff.

1539
00:53:37,660 --> 00:53:40,000
And that like, so that's what I feel

1540
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,680
like is happening here is the YouTube paradigm.

1541
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:44,740
I mean, we may be at, what I'm

1542
00:53:44,740 --> 00:53:46,140
saying is we may be at peak YouTube

1543
00:53:46,140 --> 00:53:46,800
right now.

1544
00:53:47,420 --> 00:53:50,080
It, if, if it continues down this road

1545
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,280
where everything becomes, you know, I said this

1546
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,440
on the, on the show last week is

1547
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,440
I'm, I'm just as consistently disappointed in my

1548
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:00,640
YouTube home feed as I am in my

1549
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:01,720
podcast app feed.

1550
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,320
Um, it just becomes like very quickly, I

1551
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,260
run through a couple of things and then

1552
00:54:07,260 --> 00:54:09,380
there's just nothing else that interests me.

1553
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,200
And I think it's because it's most, it's

1554
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,080
becoming this kind of stuff, six sneaky ways

1555
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:15,260
people are disrespecting you.

1556
00:54:15,260 --> 00:54:16,500
There's just tons.

1557
00:54:16,620 --> 00:54:18,600
There's so much of that because it feeds

1558
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:23,160
the algorithm, but it also dries out like

1559
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,380
meaningful content where, where people are doing things

1560
00:54:26,380 --> 00:54:29,640
other than just trying to juice the algo.

1561
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,020
That's really well said.

1562
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:33,500
I mean, I, I enjoyed that.

1563
00:54:33,580 --> 00:54:33,900
Thank you.

1564
00:54:35,380 --> 00:54:37,480
And, uh, it also kind of exposes a

1565
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,220
truth, which is that I have trained myself

1566
00:54:39,220 --> 00:54:42,340
to speak at C sharp for years, um,

1567
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,020
at that tone.

1568
00:54:43,020 --> 00:54:45,220
So I'm hoping that I thought, I thought

1569
00:54:45,220 --> 00:54:46,480
that sounded familiar, Tom.

1570
00:54:46,580 --> 00:54:49,080
Um, I, I, of course I, I thought

1571
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,640
about you coming on and, and how we

1572
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,380
can help and what ideas we can send

1573
00:54:53,380 --> 00:54:53,720
out there.

1574
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:56,200
And I personally am someone who believes that

1575
00:54:56,200 --> 00:55:00,100
we have, uh, uh, that we've, we're stuck

1576
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:02,880
in a direction of the inbox podcast app.

1577
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,440
And I think that's part of the problem.

1578
00:55:04,660 --> 00:55:07,100
And I have advocated for quite a while

1579
00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:07,400
now.

1580
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,500
It's like, have an opinion, have a podcast

1581
00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:10,680
app that has an opinion.

1582
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,380
And I always use the Rachel Maddow app

1583
00:55:13,380 --> 00:55:16,020
as an example, uh, who has literally said,

1584
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:18,060
I want, you know, how come I don't

1585
00:55:18,060 --> 00:55:19,740
have an app that shows me stuff I

1586
00:55:19,740 --> 00:55:20,480
want to hear.

1587
00:55:20,500 --> 00:55:22,220
And she, she nailed it.

1588
00:55:22,260 --> 00:55:23,500
I wonder if we still have that clip.

1589
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,680
Um, she really nailed it.

1590
00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:27,400
Let me see.

1591
00:55:27,540 --> 00:55:28,740
Rachel Maddow.

1592
00:55:29,860 --> 00:55:32,340
Um, I don't remember what that was called.

1593
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,400
Uh, but she was saying, Oh, the apps

1594
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:35,960
are no good.

1595
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,740
She was literally saying a version of what

1596
00:55:38,740 --> 00:55:40,740
you were saying, because what she wants is

1597
00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:43,060
she wants to see her shows pop up.

1598
00:55:43,380 --> 00:55:45,860
She wants to see Chris Matthews and, uh,

1599
00:55:46,220 --> 00:55:48,680
uh, you know, and Ali Valshi and, uh,

1600
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,920
and the Midas touch and, you know, all

1601
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,680
the, that's the stuff that she's interested in.

1602
00:55:53,020 --> 00:55:56,060
And there's a huge opportunity to create that.

1603
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:58,120
And it doesn't even have to be AI.

1604
00:55:58,260 --> 00:56:00,560
You can just feature those types of, uh,

1605
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,860
those types of shows and have an opinion.

1606
00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:05,700
Um, so that's what Fountain does.

1607
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:06,980
Fountain has an opinion.

1608
00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:08,720
They have a social network.

1609
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,160
They've integrated with Nostr.

1610
00:56:10,380 --> 00:56:12,900
They have an opinion about how you monetize

1611
00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:14,920
and that those money, then that monetization is

1612
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,540
a comment at the same time.

1613
00:56:17,020 --> 00:56:19,400
Um, True Fans has an opinion.

1614
00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:21,720
True Fans wants you to come here to

1615
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:23,080
be a fan of someone.

1616
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,020
And we need, I think we need many

1617
00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:29,200
more like that, that, that content creators, I

1618
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,560
hate the word, uh, producers can point people

1619
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,380
towards and say, Hey, here's a great place

1620
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:36,880
where you can, where you can, um, you,

1621
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,500
you can enjoy this platform.

1622
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,280
Now taking into account that there's really, and

1623
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:43,400
you just look at the numbers.

1624
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,580
Yeah, there's four and a half million podcasts,

1625
00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:48,680
but over the last 60 days, only 427

1626
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,840
,000 have updated the last 10 days, 243

1627
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,200
,000.

1628
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:54,380
That's a pretty small pool.

1629
00:56:54,380 --> 00:56:56,260
And I'd rather be in that small pool

1630
00:56:56,260 --> 00:56:58,000
than, uh, than on YouTube.

1631
00:56:58,580 --> 00:57:01,640
But what if we made your life, the

1632
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,480
podcast industrial complex is life easier.

1633
00:57:04,660 --> 00:57:05,840
And I'm just going to throw this out.

1634
00:57:06,380 --> 00:57:10,740
What if all of the modern podcast apps,

1635
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:13,500
which account for, you know, if we could

1636
00:57:13,500 --> 00:57:16,860
get pocket casts, I don't think we can

1637
00:57:16,860 --> 00:57:17,820
get overcast for anything.

1638
00:57:17,860 --> 00:57:18,860
It'd be great if we could.

1639
00:57:19,380 --> 00:57:22,340
Um, if we took a stance and said,

1640
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,500
Hey, we've got to change something about the

1641
00:57:25,500 --> 00:57:27,660
podcast, the advertising side.

1642
00:57:28,460 --> 00:57:31,540
And what if they all reported in actual

1643
00:57:31,540 --> 00:57:36,880
listen times into a nonprofit place where you

1644
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,680
could then have actual numbers.

1645
00:57:39,580 --> 00:57:41,380
These would be numbers that would be a

1646
00:57:41,380 --> 00:57:43,500
sample, but it might be large enough to

1647
00:57:43,500 --> 00:57:45,360
say, Hey, this is probably what's happening across

1648
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:45,840
the board.

1649
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,480
Would that be something that the podcast industrial

1650
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,360
complex would embrace and say, wow, now I

1651
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,240
really know what my ROI is because I

1652
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,400
know X amount of people heard my ad

1653
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,200
at this particular moment in the show.

1654
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,860
Or is that just pie in the sky?

1655
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:01,100
No, it's not.

1656
00:58:01,180 --> 00:58:02,160
It's not pie in the sky.

1657
00:58:02,340 --> 00:58:02,500
Right.

1658
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,020
I mean, you know, one of the issues

1659
00:58:04,020 --> 00:58:06,140
I think with the, uh, I have not

1660
00:58:06,140 --> 00:58:08,020
been to the podcast industrial complex.

1661
00:58:08,180 --> 00:58:10,460
It sounds like something in rest in Virginia.

1662
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,240
You are the cornerstone, my friend.

1663
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:14,020
What are you talking about?

1664
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:14,300
We are.

1665
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:14,940
Yeah.

1666
00:58:14,980 --> 00:58:17,040
We are a small company of four humans,

1667
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:17,320
Adam.

1668
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:18,700
I don't know that we are in that

1669
00:58:18,700 --> 00:58:20,160
cornerstone mortar.

1670
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,620
You're the mortar of the podcast industrial complex.

1671
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:24,900
We're, uh, I'm from, I'm in Boston.

1672
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,520
We're the bubbler on the first floor.

1673
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,900
So, uh, we're the bubbler.

1674
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,020
No, I, you know, I, it absolutely would

1675
00:58:33,020 --> 00:58:36,220
help because you know, right now, again, with

1676
00:58:36,220 --> 00:58:39,780
YouTube and Spotify's share increasing every single year

1677
00:58:39,780 --> 00:58:42,900
in podcasting, uh, those are closed systems in

1678
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:44,360
terms of the metrics that people have access

1679
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:44,960
to, right.

1680
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,100
You get access to YouTube metrics and they

1681
00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:50,800
define, uh, you know, a view significantly different

1682
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,300
to how you and I might define a

1683
00:58:52,300 --> 00:58:52,540
listen.

1684
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:54,840
So it would absolutely help and it would

1685
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,680
provide some, uh, some safety and some clarity.

1686
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,400
It's not going to fix everything because again,

1687
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:01,920
there's a lot of inertia on the buy

1688
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:02,280
side.

1689
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,180
Uh, but you know, without a doubt being

1690
00:59:05,180 --> 00:59:08,640
able to have player metrics, um, and that's

1691
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:10,580
something certainly, you know, we, we would love

1692
00:59:10,580 --> 00:59:11,860
to get more and more of from Apple

1693
00:59:11,860 --> 00:59:13,980
as well, uh, would help.

1694
00:59:13,980 --> 00:59:15,240
And it doesn't have to be the whole

1695
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,600
universe, but if it's modelable, it can be

1696
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:18,820
a proxy for something.

1697
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:20,660
Uh, and it's a place to start.

1698
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,720
What, what is your daily driver podcast app,

1699
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:24,160
Tom?

1700
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,740
Uh, for me, it's Pocket Casts.

1701
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:27,900
Pocket Casts.

1702
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,760
What, so what is your, if you were

1703
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,340
to think of an idea, is it, well,

1704
00:59:35,380 --> 00:59:37,560
let me ask you this first, is it

1705
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,520
Pocket Casts your daily driver because you think

1706
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,060
it comes closest to the vision that you

1707
00:59:44,060 --> 00:59:45,860
laid out or do you, or is it

1708
00:59:45,860 --> 00:59:48,840
just sort of the best of the things

1709
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,380
that you don't like?

1710
00:59:50,860 --> 00:59:51,680
It's habit.

1711
00:59:52,620 --> 00:59:54,780
And that's, yeah, it's habit and habit is

1712
00:59:54,780 --> 00:59:56,200
everything, right?

1713
00:59:56,380 --> 00:59:58,400
The habit and default thinking are everything.

1714
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,660
It's why when somebody tells somebody about a

1715
01:00:01,660 --> 01:00:04,600
show and that person is interested in it

1716
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:05,880
and they say, where can I find it?

1717
01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:08,480
The other person is very likely to say,

1718
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,600
oh, just search for it on YouTube.

1719
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:11,620
It's habit.

1720
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,440
What, so what is your, if you, can

1721
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,080
you lay out what your ideal podcast app

1722
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:18,620
would be?

1723
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:20,320
Yeah.

1724
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:21,740
I mean, I think it has a finite

1725
01:00:21,740 --> 01:00:22,000
number.

1726
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:22,880
Do you see it in your head is

1727
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:23,200
what I mean?

1728
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:24,040
I do.

1729
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:25,480
I, I see it in my head.

1730
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:26,500
I have a vision.

1731
01:00:26,980 --> 01:00:27,120
Yeah.

1732
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:28,540
All those years that I was locked in

1733
01:00:28,540 --> 01:00:32,180
a vault in Burma, uh, this vision came

1734
01:00:32,180 --> 01:00:34,620
to me and, and to me, it, it,

1735
01:00:34,620 --> 01:00:37,540
it smells an awful lot like radio and

1736
01:00:37,540 --> 01:00:40,060
it is radio, but it is your perfect

1737
01:00:40,060 --> 01:00:40,700
station, right?

1738
01:00:40,700 --> 01:00:42,440
We can do that with music.

1739
01:00:43,140 --> 01:00:44,920
Uh, we need to be able to do

1740
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:45,700
it with spoken word.

1741
01:00:45,740 --> 01:00:48,560
And, and I go back to what Adam

1742
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,940
was just talking about, about having an opinion.

1743
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,820
Um, you know, if I am interested in

1744
01:00:54,820 --> 01:00:57,520
true crime right now, I can either assemble

1745
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,680
my own true crime network with, uh, you

1746
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:01,640
know, a magnifying glass and a bunch of

1747
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:05,460
searches, uh, or I can settle for one

1748
01:01:05,460 --> 01:01:07,520
company or one publisher's version of that.

1749
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:07,820
Right.

1750
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,280
But surely there's another middle ground there.

1751
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:11,640
Surely there's a way that I could push

1752
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,840
my true crime preset, uh, and it's always

1753
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,340
filled with the content that I want.

1754
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:16,840
Exactly.

1755
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,880
Well, wouldn't this be a pot, an app,

1756
01:01:18,980 --> 01:01:19,580
just an app?

1757
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:21,800
Cause I, cause when you said push button,

1758
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:23,160
that triggered a lot of things in me

1759
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:24,840
and, and Dave and I are actually working

1760
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,800
on a project right now where radio stations

1761
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,100
are now all moving to apps.

1762
01:01:29,140 --> 01:01:30,220
And I think they're right.

1763
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,680
Uh, the apps that they have are pathetic,

1764
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,040
uh, but they're moving to apps for their,

1765
01:01:37,620 --> 01:01:40,100
uh, listen live and, uh, on demand.

1766
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,300
And, and, and it's successful for them in

1767
01:01:44,300 --> 01:01:46,120
many ways, you know, but as long as

1768
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,440
they have the transmitters burning, you know, oil,

1769
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,960
uh, to keep them running there, it's going

1770
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:51,740
to be hard for them.

1771
01:01:52,940 --> 01:01:56,380
But wouldn't it, your push button be, here's

1772
01:01:56,380 --> 01:01:58,620
my true crime app and you open it

1773
01:01:58,620 --> 01:02:00,860
up and your serendipity and all the things

1774
01:02:00,860 --> 01:02:03,440
you're looking for is right there because, oh,

1775
01:02:03,460 --> 01:02:05,300
here's the latest episode of this one that

1776
01:02:05,300 --> 01:02:06,380
I'm already listening to.

1777
01:02:06,380 --> 01:02:08,860
Uh, here's something that is similar to it.

1778
01:02:09,060 --> 01:02:10,620
It would just be a bunch of, and

1779
01:02:10,620 --> 01:02:12,300
this is what the podcast index was really

1780
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:15,340
built for to create these types of experiences

1781
01:02:15,340 --> 01:02:16,940
because you can do that.

1782
01:02:17,220 --> 01:02:19,580
You can, you can create an app, which

1783
01:02:19,580 --> 01:02:22,840
is your push button and it will feed

1784
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,400
you stuff, uh, in a, in a certain

1785
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:26,000
category.

1786
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,060
Isn't, isn't that what you're asking for?

1787
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:29,080
Yeah.

1788
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:30,720
I mean, I think a lot of, uh,

1789
01:02:30,900 --> 01:02:33,360
you know, a lot of the creator side

1790
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:34,920
of things is very focused on the lean

1791
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:35,700
forward listener.

1792
01:02:36,460 --> 01:02:38,920
Um, and I, I want to also focus

1793
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,200
on the lean back listener, not, it's not

1794
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:41,840
a false choice.

1795
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,240
Uh, it's a, it's not a, it's not

1796
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:45,000
a binary thing.

1797
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:47,780
Um, and I, and here's the thing, and

1798
01:02:47,780 --> 01:02:49,860
I, I listened to the show last week,

1799
01:02:50,220 --> 01:02:53,140
um, and I want to talk about the

1800
01:02:53,140 --> 01:02:55,440
daily sticky thing a little bit, uh, just,

1801
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:57,200
just for a heartbeat, indulge me.

1802
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,260
Um, and when Dave invited me to come

1803
01:03:00,260 --> 01:03:01,680
on this week after that, I thought, okay,

1804
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:03,940
there it's they're inviting a vegan to a

1805
01:03:03,940 --> 01:03:05,320
steak dinner just to watch his face.

1806
01:03:06,100 --> 01:03:06,720
Oh man.

1807
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,420
We're lovers, not fighters, brother.

1808
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,320
We love, we love everybody.

1809
01:03:12,100 --> 01:03:13,860
Um, here's, here's the thing that really, here's

1810
01:03:13,860 --> 01:03:14,900
the thing that really concerns me.

1811
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:17,220
Um, in the, in the article I wrote

1812
01:03:17,220 --> 01:03:18,940
last week, not this week's, I published a

1813
01:03:18,940 --> 01:03:21,880
graph that showed the conversion of people who

1814
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:26,680
have, uh, ever tried a podcast to a

1815
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:28,680
monthly consumption to weekly consumption.

1816
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,120
And the ratio of weekly, not even talking

1817
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,640
about daily, the ratio of weekly consumers to

1818
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:36,820
those that have ever tried it, uh, it's

1819
01:03:36,820 --> 01:03:37,400
50%.

1820
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:38,080
Right.

1821
01:03:38,540 --> 01:03:40,640
And that smelled bad to me.

1822
01:03:40,780 --> 01:03:43,940
And so I did a gigantic survey about

1823
01:03:43,940 --> 01:03:45,300
it, which I just got back.

1824
01:03:45,340 --> 01:03:46,800
And I'm going to talk about a podcast

1825
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,200
movement evolutions where I compared that exact ratio

1826
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,380
with 15 other types of media that we

1827
01:03:53,380 --> 01:03:53,840
consume.

1828
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,200
And sure enough, it's very close to the

1829
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:56,460
bottom.

1830
01:03:57,020 --> 01:03:58,840
And yes, Adam, you're right.

1831
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,040
We don't, podcasts are not the same thing

1832
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:02,020
as the radio.

1833
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:03,600
They're not the same thing as scrolling through

1834
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:04,520
your TikTok feed.

1835
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:07,420
But if podcasting is, you know, 11th or

1836
01:04:07,420 --> 01:04:10,240
12th on that list in terms of actually

1837
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:12,220
a thing you try versus the thing that

1838
01:04:12,220 --> 01:04:14,420
you make part of your regular existence somehow,

1839
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,760
uh, then it's very forgettable.

1840
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:17,080
Right.

1841
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,120
And I, and I would like to make

1842
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,500
podcasting more of a, more of a friend

1843
01:04:21,500 --> 01:04:23,620
for people because people don't fire their friends.

1844
01:04:25,660 --> 01:04:27,720
It's just, it feels like podcast, you know,

1845
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:29,940
podcast apps originally, and they've always been this

1846
01:04:29,940 --> 01:04:34,420
sort of like, it's, it's the radio and

1847
01:04:34,420 --> 01:04:36,040
a little out of Adam said this before,

1848
01:04:36,100 --> 01:04:37,000
it's the radio receiver.

1849
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,860
And, and your, the idea is that you

1850
01:04:39,860 --> 01:04:41,880
just like a radio dial, you're just going

1851
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:43,620
to go find the content you want within

1852
01:04:43,620 --> 01:04:44,300
your app.

1853
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:46,380
You know, part of the problem now is

1854
01:04:46,380 --> 01:04:49,040
the, the dot, this dial is now 4

1855
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:50,640
million ticks long, you know?

1856
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:52,480
So you, I mean, it takes like 20,

1857
01:04:52,580 --> 01:04:55,980
you know, 20 years to, to find the,

1858
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:57,800
the thing you want if you're starting from

1859
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:58,820
scratch with nothing.

1860
01:04:59,580 --> 01:05:02,860
Um, but you know, the, I guess, I

1861
01:05:02,860 --> 01:05:06,120
guess is there, you know, from that, from

1862
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,880
that standpoint, there's no, you're not really the

1863
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:09,480
entry point.

1864
01:05:09,580 --> 01:05:11,340
It's not surprising what you're saying because the

1865
01:05:11,340 --> 01:05:18,100
entry point into podcast, anything really, it, it's

1866
01:05:18,100 --> 01:05:18,720
difficult.

1867
01:05:19,460 --> 01:05:22,980
It really is just that podcast icon on

1868
01:05:22,980 --> 01:05:24,020
your iPhone.

1869
01:05:25,660 --> 01:05:28,020
Because I mean, the whole debate about what

1870
01:05:28,020 --> 01:05:30,420
is a podcast is, is tedious and, and

1871
01:05:30,420 --> 01:05:31,800
it's boring.

1872
01:05:32,220 --> 01:05:35,940
Um, I mean, really it's, if you, to

1873
01:05:35,940 --> 01:05:37,780
me, if you say that, if you call

1874
01:05:37,780 --> 01:05:39,940
your show a podcast, then when I opened

1875
01:05:39,940 --> 01:05:41,880
my podcast app, it should be there.

1876
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:42,940
That's the bottom line.

1877
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:43,400
Yeah.

1878
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,320
If it's not, then it's not, it's like

1879
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,320
turning on the radio and this radio show

1880
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,940
is not the then, you know, it's not

1881
01:05:50,940 --> 01:05:53,900
a radio show, but it feels like if

1882
01:05:53,900 --> 01:05:57,620
you're, whether you land on YouTube or whether

1883
01:05:57,620 --> 01:06:01,500
you land in a podcast app, eventually, if

1884
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:06,280
you intro into podcasting through some route, eventually

1885
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:07,960
you're going to hit a show that's not

1886
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:08,480
on YouTube.

1887
01:06:09,020 --> 01:06:10,880
And so you're going to go have to

1888
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,160
go find it somewhere else.

1889
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:15,860
And that somewhere else is going to weave

1890
01:06:15,860 --> 01:06:19,460
you back to some sort of podcast app.

1891
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,960
And then you're in the ecosystem in some

1892
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:23,260
way.

1893
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,840
Um, I don't know if that's ideal, but

1894
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,620
I don't also don't know if it's avoidable.

1895
01:06:29,900 --> 01:06:31,980
You know, so, so Dave and I have

1896
01:06:31,980 --> 01:06:35,860
an interesting proof of concept where we are

1897
01:06:35,860 --> 01:06:39,240
creating, it's an, for all intents and purposes,

1898
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,240
it's a specific podcast app.

1899
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,500
You can get it on a webpage, but

1900
01:06:44,500 --> 01:06:46,300
you can also, there's an app coming as

1901
01:06:46,300 --> 01:06:46,480
well.

1902
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,240
You can get it in an app and

1903
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,960
it's specific to geographic location.

1904
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:55,700
And so I'll just take my own hellofred

1905
01:06:55,700 --> 01:06:56,960
.fm as an example.

1906
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:01,080
So I have, um, and just, just call

1907
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:02,420
it an app cause it will be, but

1908
01:07:02,420 --> 01:07:05,180
it's on a webpage right now and it

1909
01:07:05,180 --> 01:07:05,980
has a live stream.

1910
01:07:05,980 --> 01:07:08,660
The live stream is music exactly like K

1911
01:07:08,660 --> 01:07:11,980
-Love and there's promos for podcasts that are

1912
01:07:11,980 --> 01:07:12,740
in this app.

1913
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,980
And the results of that is that of

1914
01:07:16,980 --> 01:07:20,060
the 100 people a day who listen now,

1915
01:07:20,220 --> 01:07:22,380
100 of those no longer listen to K

1916
01:07:22,380 --> 01:07:22,500
-Love.

1917
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:24,680
They listen to Hello Fred here in Fredericksburg.

1918
01:07:24,900 --> 01:07:25,100
Why?

1919
01:07:25,820 --> 01:07:26,720
And there's my app before.

1920
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:27,200
Why?

1921
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:30,920
Because they get the same music, but it's

1922
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:32,320
all, it has local content.

1923
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:33,960
The most important thing of that, by the

1924
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,180
way, for them is it's 73 degrees right

1925
01:07:36,180 --> 01:07:37,340
now on main street in Fred.

1926
01:07:38,340 --> 01:07:41,120
But I find that they all are very

1927
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:44,420
happy because they know that if they want

1928
01:07:44,420 --> 01:07:47,380
to find the latest podcast from something in

1929
01:07:47,380 --> 01:07:51,040
Fredericksburg, they go to this app and they

1930
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:52,460
don't care if it's on their phone.

1931
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:54,040
They don't care if it's on a webpage.

1932
01:07:54,420 --> 01:07:56,240
They don't care if it's on, uh, on

1933
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,520
hellofred.fm. They don't care if it's on

1934
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,040
the church website.

1935
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:01,740
They, and they all say the same thing.

1936
01:08:01,740 --> 01:08:03,400
I love it because all the stuff I

1937
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,620
want from local from here is right there.

1938
01:08:05,980 --> 01:08:07,100
I don't have to think about it.

1939
01:08:07,140 --> 01:08:08,260
I have to search about it.

1940
01:08:08,620 --> 01:08:10,400
And so that's an app with an opinion.

1941
01:08:11,340 --> 01:08:13,880
And I, and I, and the response I've

1942
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:15,880
gotten just from a few times, like I

1943
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,979
said, on Rogan, like I think hyperlocal podcasts

1944
01:08:17,979 --> 01:08:18,680
is the way to go.

1945
01:08:18,939 --> 01:08:22,260
I have hundreds, hundreds of emails from people

1946
01:08:22,260 --> 01:08:24,359
saying, wow, I never considered that.

1947
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:25,979
I never considered I could just do a

1948
01:08:25,979 --> 01:08:28,319
podcast for my town, for my community, for

1949
01:08:28,319 --> 01:08:29,380
my section of the city.

1950
01:08:29,380 --> 01:08:31,700
I had to write up a page for

1951
01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:33,359
people to tell them how to get started,

1952
01:08:33,500 --> 01:08:34,939
hyperlocalpodcast.com.

1953
01:08:34,979 --> 01:08:36,779
And then of course, directly point them to

1954
01:08:36,779 --> 01:08:39,560
Dave Jackson school of podcasting because I can't,

1955
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:41,399
I can't teach everybody how to podcast.

1956
01:08:42,260 --> 01:08:44,960
Um, I think there's a shift taking place

1957
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:45,640
now.

1958
01:08:45,740 --> 01:08:47,580
I don't know if it helps the advertising

1959
01:08:47,580 --> 01:08:50,660
side of it, um, but it may for

1960
01:08:50,660 --> 01:08:51,779
local advertising.

1961
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,819
But again, we've, we've gone astray.

1962
01:08:54,819 --> 01:08:57,460
We've been stuck in our same inbox model,

1963
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,180
which can be handy if you just want

1964
01:09:00,180 --> 01:09:01,020
to find something.

1965
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:03,819
But most people hear about something from their,

1966
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:05,880
from their neighbor, from their friend, from their

1967
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:06,560
family member.

1968
01:09:07,220 --> 01:09:11,640
And the serendipity and the discovery is in

1969
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,160
a very small set of things that someone

1970
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:15,080
else has programmed.

1971
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:19,399
If it's a specific experience, which we should

1972
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:21,100
have a hundred of by now.

1973
01:09:21,580 --> 01:09:21,979
Yeah.

1974
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,240
Right down to, um, you know, and I

1975
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:26,800
can see you can have the true crime

1976
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:27,060
app.

1977
01:09:27,140 --> 01:09:28,479
You can have the true crime with Gore

1978
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:28,819
app.

1979
01:09:28,859 --> 01:09:30,580
You can have the true crime with, you

1980
01:09:30,580 --> 01:09:33,800
know, with, uh, only, uh, people getting out

1981
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:35,240
of jail after 20 years.

1982
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,319
There's a million different experiences we can build.

1983
01:09:38,580 --> 01:09:40,479
And now it come now, this is the

1984
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:40,840
big one.

1985
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,080
It all comes back to what's in it

1986
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:44,100
for the app developer.

1987
01:09:45,700 --> 01:09:47,560
This is our major problem.

1988
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,180
App developing an app is hard.

1989
01:09:50,180 --> 01:09:51,819
It's, it's tedious.

1990
01:09:52,140 --> 01:09:53,200
It sucks ass.

1991
01:09:53,580 --> 01:09:54,600
It's a time suck.

1992
01:09:54,740 --> 01:09:56,220
It removes you from your family.

1993
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,080
Um, there's, and the platforms pull the rug

1994
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:01,480
out from under you at regular intervals.

1995
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,260
There's that happens too.

1996
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,320
Um, although I, you know, I, I, yes,

1997
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:06,920
it happens.

1998
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,380
Um, so this is the problem.

1999
01:10:11,380 --> 01:10:14,320
We're either developing stuff for love because we

2000
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:15,160
want to build this.

2001
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,020
And then, and I, I think most of

2002
01:10:17,020 --> 01:10:19,820
the podcast apps that have a premium version,

2003
01:10:19,820 --> 01:10:21,760
I think they're reasonably successful.

2004
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,260
It keeps them, you know, I don't think

2005
01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:25,560
know anyone who's quit their day job except

2006
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:27,100
for the fountain guys, but they did get

2007
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:30,040
a, they did raise, uh, some investment money.

2008
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:36,140
Um, that that's, that's the problem who is

2009
01:10:36,140 --> 01:10:37,120
going to build.

2010
01:10:37,180 --> 01:10:38,860
And we've been, Dave and I, we've been

2011
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:41,120
talking about this for a year and it's

2012
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,140
not happening because there's no money in it.

2013
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:46,020
And people are struggling just to build the

2014
01:10:46,020 --> 01:10:46,540
app itself.

2015
01:10:46,540 --> 01:10:48,700
We've made it very easy or much easier

2016
01:10:48,700 --> 01:10:49,780
with the podcast index.

2017
01:10:49,780 --> 01:10:50,900
You don't have to do a lot of

2018
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:54,940
the heavy lifting, but how do we stimulate

2019
01:10:54,940 --> 01:10:55,940
that growth?

2020
01:10:57,540 --> 01:11:01,200
If it's the advertisers who want something, then

2021
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,240
they need to pony up.

2022
01:11:04,820 --> 01:11:05,040
Yeah.

2023
01:11:05,060 --> 01:11:07,160
I mean, your favorite podcast, like Tom's favorite

2024
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,580
podcast app, uh, pocket cast.

2025
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,880
I mean, they, they really had hard times.

2026
01:11:13,060 --> 01:11:16,320
It's, they were lucky to survive financially when

2027
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:17,320
WordPress bought them.

2028
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:18,860
I mean, I feel like they were on

2029
01:11:18,860 --> 01:11:21,580
their last legs because of, you know, NPR

2030
01:11:21,580 --> 01:11:23,340
and all those kinds of things that happened

2031
01:11:23,340 --> 01:11:24,280
with their history.

2032
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,180
It's, it's not, especially at their scale, that's

2033
01:11:28,180 --> 01:11:29,360
not, it's not cheap.

2034
01:11:29,480 --> 01:11:31,540
And yeah, it really comes down to what

2035
01:11:31,540 --> 01:11:32,380
we said a few weeks ago.

2036
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:36,300
I mean, there's you with, within podcasting, there's,

2037
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:39,880
there's this, um, you know, feast or famine

2038
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:40,220
thing.

2039
01:11:40,300 --> 01:11:42,220
I mean, you're, you're not, you're either going

2040
01:11:42,220 --> 01:11:43,440
to be doing it for the love of

2041
01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:44,580
it, you know, or you're going to be

2042
01:11:44,580 --> 01:11:47,120
doing it for, for, for, you know, or

2043
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:48,760
it's a full-time gig and you're making

2044
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:49,420
plenty of dough.

2045
01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:50,860
It's, there's really no in between.

2046
01:11:52,020 --> 01:11:53,640
Well, I'll tell you the, the, uh, the

2047
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:55,400
thing that can, it concerns me and I

2048
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,760
want to step back just, uh, societally here,

2049
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:00,860
because I, I, Adam, I agree with a

2050
01:12:00,860 --> 01:12:02,120
lot of what you were just talking about.

2051
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,120
Um, my, you know, one of my concerns

2052
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:07,680
about, uh, you know, again, circling back to

2053
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:09,800
Dave, you talking about the, you know, optimizing

2054
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,080
for the YouTube algorithm and all of that

2055
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,600
is it sort of creates one country, right?

2056
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,840
And we have been through this before.

2057
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:20,200
It, it's something, uh, I've, I call it

2058
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:21,300
the Donny Iris problem.

2059
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,760
And, you know, Adam, as a, as an

2060
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,000
ex DJ, you may remember Donny Iris who

2061
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:30,420
had hit, uh, Alia, right.

2062
01:12:31,140 --> 01:12:34,160
And, uh, when I, so I've done programming

2063
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,940
research for 30 years and, or, you know,

2064
01:12:36,940 --> 01:12:39,180
back when I started, uh, doing a lot

2065
01:12:39,180 --> 01:12:41,460
of research for radio stations in the radio

2066
01:12:41,460 --> 01:12:44,920
industry, there were massive regional differences in music.

2067
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,920
And like at any time you would do

2068
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:51,160
a music test in Pittsburgh, Donny Iris was

2069
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,080
number one, right?

2070
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:54,760
Those days are gone.

2071
01:12:55,060 --> 01:12:58,220
And the regional differences in musical tastes have,

2072
01:12:58,400 --> 01:12:59,340
have disappeared.

2073
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:02,500
Uh, that that's happened because of centralized playlists,

2074
01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:04,760
uh, it's happened because of the kind of,

2075
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:07,980
you know, uh, spot of spotification of, of,

2076
01:13:08,180 --> 01:13:10,040
uh, of playlists and national tastes and things

2077
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:10,440
like that.

2078
01:13:11,100 --> 01:13:13,340
Um, you know, when Ed Sheeran puts out

2079
01:13:13,340 --> 01:13:15,780
a new album, all 20 tracks become the

2080
01:13:15,780 --> 01:13:17,620
top 20 on Spotify, that kind of thing.

2081
01:13:18,100 --> 01:13:22,040
Uh, and so, you know, regional tastes actually

2082
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,500
disappear and that's not a good thing.

2083
01:13:25,940 --> 01:13:28,460
Um, and so when you talk about apps

2084
01:13:28,460 --> 01:13:30,200
with an opinion, a podcast app with an

2085
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,120
opinion or something that's hyperlocal, uh, now's the

2086
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:33,500
time.

2087
01:13:34,020 --> 01:13:36,640
Because those distinctions will disappear, right?

2088
01:13:37,220 --> 01:13:40,300
If it doesn't matter where you're from, if

2089
01:13:40,300 --> 01:13:42,180
you don't feel a connection, uh, to your

2090
01:13:42,180 --> 01:13:44,740
local community, uh, then we are all going

2091
01:13:44,740 --> 01:13:46,300
to get our media in the same way.

2092
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:47,800
And we are all going to start making

2093
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:49,040
the same choices and it's going to be

2094
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:50,400
increasingly difficult to break out.

2095
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:52,760
But what happens then, and this is what,

2096
01:13:52,820 --> 01:13:56,120
what I'm seeing, what we're seeing is there

2097
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:59,520
is an incredible hunger for it because radio

2098
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:03,160
specific radio's problem is not necessarily digital audio.

2099
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:05,360
Radio's problem is they've given up on local.

2100
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:08,360
Facebook has eaten up all the advertising from

2101
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:09,280
the local retailers.

2102
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:11,620
So they've, they've given up that it's, you

2103
01:14:11,620 --> 01:14:13,600
know, Elvis Duran used to be the guy

2104
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:15,440
in New York now is in 15 markets.

2105
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:17,880
So the only localized part from New York

2106
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,880
is C100 New York and it's 73 degrees.

2107
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:22,040
That's it.

2108
01:14:22,100 --> 01:14:23,460
And I think people still tune in for

2109
01:14:23,460 --> 01:14:26,180
the 73 degrees part and your local traffic,

2110
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:26,640
et cetera.

2111
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:30,260
Um, but I have proof, I have proof

2112
01:14:30,260 --> 01:14:34,640
that people are desiring something that is local

2113
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,360
for them and, and it can be all

2114
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:38,960
kinds of, I mean, we have a guy

2115
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:40,680
here who does a five minute weekly podcast

2116
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:42,480
about what's happening in the state Capitol.

2117
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:44,520
And why do people like it?

2118
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,320
Because it's Matt, we all know Matt.

2119
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:48,440
He's a, he's mad.

2120
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:50,020
He walks around as Ben Franklin on July

2121
01:14:50,020 --> 01:14:52,020
4th and he does that.

2122
01:14:52,020 --> 01:14:54,600
And so, you know, and, and if I,

2123
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,080
I'm not doing it, but I know I

2124
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:57,820
could go out to retailers and say, I

2125
01:14:57,820 --> 01:15:00,320
have a hundred people a day from Fredericksburg

2126
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:00,700
listening.

2127
01:15:00,980 --> 01:15:02,240
I can get money for that.

2128
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:03,500
I can sell that.

2129
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:04,840
I don't, I don't desire it.

2130
01:15:04,860 --> 01:15:06,280
I don't want to, I don't have to,

2131
01:15:06,620 --> 01:15:08,220
but I could if I needed to.

2132
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,360
Um, so going back to local and having

2133
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:17,640
an opinion and somehow, somehow creating these, and

2134
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,500
maybe it doesn't have to be an app.

2135
01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:22,540
I'm, you know, I'm just seeing that it

2136
01:15:22,540 --> 01:15:24,340
doesn't have to be an app per se.

2137
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:27,160
People will type in to what they think

2138
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:27,900
is their phone.

2139
01:15:28,420 --> 01:15:29,700
You know, I got duck, duck, go.

2140
01:15:29,860 --> 01:15:30,440
Do you have a browser?

2141
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:31,780
No, but I got duck, duck, go.

2142
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:32,120
Okay.

2143
01:15:32,460 --> 01:15:34,860
And they type in, you know, hello, Fred,

2144
01:15:34,980 --> 01:15:36,180
D O T F M.

2145
01:15:37,460 --> 01:15:39,060
They don't even know how to type in

2146
01:15:39,060 --> 01:15:40,000
a URL anymore.

2147
01:15:40,380 --> 01:15:41,460
And like, oh, there it is.

2148
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:42,060
Click, boom.

2149
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:42,700
Oh, there it is.

2150
01:15:42,780 --> 01:15:43,020
Listen.

2151
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:45,640
And there are, they're already off listening on

2152
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:46,080
experience.

2153
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,420
They don't realize that it's a, it's a

2154
01:15:48,420 --> 01:15:50,120
PWA or it's just a webpage.

2155
01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:51,860
They're able to listen to something.

2156
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,100
They can lock their screen.

2157
01:15:53,260 --> 01:15:54,340
They can connect it with Bluetooth.

2158
01:15:54,580 --> 01:15:55,860
That's a stretch, but they do.

2159
01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:58,900
Um, if they're, if they're serious enough about

2160
01:15:58,900 --> 01:16:00,660
it, but they have to be interested in

2161
01:16:00,660 --> 01:16:03,440
it and it only comes from experiences that

2162
01:16:03,440 --> 01:16:06,000
capture people in that moment, but it's all

2163
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:06,940
going to be fragmented.

2164
01:16:07,220 --> 01:16:10,000
The idea of a podcast app is your

2165
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:10,400
radio.

2166
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:11,680
I think that's just over.

2167
01:16:12,580 --> 01:16:14,320
I've said this many times.

2168
01:16:14,420 --> 01:16:15,500
It's just over.

2169
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:19,880
You know, and yeah, YouTube, you know, the

2170
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,140
algorithm is kind of your, your app within

2171
01:16:22,140 --> 01:16:22,840
an app, right?

2172
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:25,120
You know, that's, well, I mean, think about

2173
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:26,120
it, think about it this way.

2174
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:27,620
I mean, if you have right now, there's

2175
01:16:27,620 --> 01:16:29,460
four and a half million, you know, total

2176
01:16:29,460 --> 01:16:31,920
podcasts in the index, you know, we, and

2177
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:33,980
we, we understand that not all those update,

2178
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,420
but there's that's four and a half million.

2179
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:40,160
Imagine some future scenario where there's, where there's

2180
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:41,340
a hundred million.

2181
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,960
Now there really is no way to centrally

2182
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:46,140
handle all this stuff.

2183
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:49,800
I mean, there, it just becomes, you, you're

2184
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:52,000
gonna be forced in that room, you know,

2185
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:56,060
in that scenario to, um, like niche yourself

2186
01:16:56,060 --> 01:16:57,960
because there's no, there's not going to be

2187
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:01,520
a backend that has a hundred, 150 million,

2188
01:17:01,620 --> 01:17:04,760
200 million podcast directory for you to search

2189
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:05,040
through.

2190
01:17:05,420 --> 01:17:08,200
Um, it's all, it's really only doable right

2191
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:09,380
now because it's small.

2192
01:17:12,310 --> 01:17:14,930
By the way, I volunteer to do a

2193
01:17:14,930 --> 01:17:18,410
daily, uh, traffic report for hello, Fred with

2194
01:17:18,410 --> 01:17:20,650
fake, fake helicopter noise.

2195
01:17:21,330 --> 01:17:23,990
You're in, you're in, you're in flying above.

2196
01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:25,750
I'm flying above Fredericksburg right now.

2197
01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:26,470
You're in.

2198
01:17:26,730 --> 01:17:27,230
Yeah.

2199
01:17:27,510 --> 01:17:29,030
I mean, we can man the mic for

2200
01:17:29,030 --> 01:17:30,890
every, uh, for every, uh, hurricane.

2201
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:31,290
Yes.

2202
01:17:31,390 --> 01:17:33,190
I mean, I've all fake high school basketball

2203
01:17:33,190 --> 01:17:33,670
games.

2204
01:17:33,730 --> 01:17:36,090
Well, well, just so you know, the kids,

2205
01:17:36,290 --> 01:17:38,610
uh, at the local high school, they're creating

2206
01:17:38,610 --> 01:17:39,970
a podcast for hello, Fred.

2207
01:17:40,070 --> 01:17:42,810
And it's about the Fredericksburg Billies, our award

2208
01:17:42,810 --> 01:17:44,250
-winning girls basketball team.

2209
01:17:44,730 --> 01:17:46,370
And they're just, they're just going to put

2210
01:17:46,370 --> 01:17:48,470
together a podcast and they love it.

2211
01:17:48,530 --> 01:17:49,210
They're fine with it.

2212
01:17:49,210 --> 01:17:50,230
And you know what they love the most?

2213
01:17:50,410 --> 01:17:51,810
Like people come up and say, Hey, I

2214
01:17:51,810 --> 01:17:52,950
heard, I heard your podcast.

2215
01:17:53,350 --> 01:17:55,110
It's so much more than a like, or

2216
01:17:55,110 --> 01:17:56,210
a thumbs up, et cetera.

2217
01:17:57,970 --> 01:18:00,710
So the landscape is clearly changing.

2218
01:18:00,970 --> 01:18:04,750
I think the most, the biggest breakthrough that

2219
01:18:04,750 --> 01:18:09,790
could happen for digital audio would be for

2220
01:18:09,790 --> 01:18:13,170
all podcast apps to use the lit tag,

2221
01:18:13,490 --> 01:18:15,930
the live item tag live.

2222
01:18:16,070 --> 01:18:16,170
Yeah.

2223
01:18:16,570 --> 01:18:19,590
It's astounding what kind of an experience that

2224
01:18:19,590 --> 01:18:22,650
is when you can listen, you can, you

2225
01:18:22,650 --> 01:18:24,450
can select, I mean, I've been doing live

2226
01:18:24,450 --> 01:18:28,090
streaming, uh, no agenda for almost 17 years.

2227
01:18:28,950 --> 01:18:31,230
And, you know, we have bat signals and

2228
01:18:31,230 --> 01:18:33,490
stuff fires off and the podcast and people

2229
01:18:33,490 --> 01:18:35,430
get the podcast apps just for that.

2230
01:18:35,870 --> 01:18:37,550
Like, Oh, well, when they, when the, when

2231
01:18:37,550 --> 01:18:39,450
the boys go live, then I get an

2232
01:18:39,450 --> 01:18:40,710
alert and I tap on it and my

2233
01:18:40,710 --> 01:18:42,570
podcast opens up and boom, I'm good to

2234
01:18:42,570 --> 01:18:42,850
go.

2235
01:18:43,670 --> 01:18:45,030
You know, when you just check in with

2236
01:18:45,030 --> 01:18:47,010
pocketcasts on that and see where the, because

2237
01:18:47,010 --> 01:18:49,610
that's something that they would be riding up

2238
01:18:49,610 --> 01:18:50,030
their alley.

2239
01:18:50,170 --> 01:18:51,670
They've added a lot of 2.0 features

2240
01:18:51,670 --> 01:18:53,610
that the live seems like a missing component.

2241
01:18:53,790 --> 01:18:53,930
Yeah.

2242
01:18:54,050 --> 01:18:54,890
Apple should add it.

2243
01:18:54,970 --> 01:18:56,570
I mean, they, they could, they could capture

2244
01:18:56,570 --> 01:18:58,950
the entire radio system.

2245
01:18:59,530 --> 01:19:01,570
Everybody could shoot down the transmitters overnight.

2246
01:19:02,190 --> 01:19:03,590
Well, cause then you get your, then you

2247
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:05,130
get your traffic and your weather right there

2248
01:19:05,130 --> 01:19:06,430
I mean, you know, you get all that

2249
01:19:06,430 --> 01:19:07,390
stuff because it's live.

2250
01:19:07,690 --> 01:19:07,790
Yeah.

2251
01:19:08,110 --> 01:19:10,890
And then, you know, the combination of having

2252
01:19:10,890 --> 01:19:14,190
a live stream in an RSS feed with

2253
01:19:14,190 --> 01:19:17,970
podcasts, whether it's all the same or whether

2254
01:19:17,970 --> 01:19:20,050
like we're doing where you, you have a

2255
01:19:20,050 --> 01:19:22,610
feed of different podcasts that have been selected

2256
01:19:22,610 --> 01:19:24,190
for you in the most recent episode is

2257
01:19:24,190 --> 01:19:24,570
available.

2258
01:19:25,110 --> 01:19:26,610
These are the types of things that we

2259
01:19:26,610 --> 01:19:27,750
have to be thinking about.

2260
01:19:28,010 --> 01:19:30,710
And so as far as podcasting 2.0

2261
01:19:30,710 --> 01:19:33,290
goes, whatever we want to call it, it's

2262
01:19:33,290 --> 01:19:34,710
really about the app development.

2263
01:19:34,890 --> 01:19:37,450
You're right, but it's not about the features.

2264
01:19:37,750 --> 01:19:39,330
It's about the opinions.

2265
01:19:40,390 --> 01:19:41,870
Well, I think it's about shared experience.

2266
01:19:42,630 --> 01:19:44,770
And that I think is what live offers

2267
01:19:44,770 --> 01:19:44,950
you.

2268
01:19:45,030 --> 01:19:46,730
That's one path to shared experience.

2269
01:19:47,210 --> 01:19:49,670
Whether that's, you know, the comments section on

2270
01:19:49,670 --> 01:19:52,750
YouTube or, or everybody, you know, kind of

2271
01:19:52,750 --> 01:19:54,030
checking in a chat in a chat room

2272
01:19:54,030 --> 01:19:56,470
that they're sharing an experience and it's when

2273
01:19:56,470 --> 01:19:59,950
an experience is shared in real time that

2274
01:19:59,950 --> 01:20:01,590
it has velocity, right.

2275
01:20:01,630 --> 01:20:03,390
And then it just doesn't sort of languish.

2276
01:20:03,390 --> 01:20:06,170
So, uh, you know, finding ways to make

2277
01:20:06,170 --> 01:20:11,190
podcast content, uh, more vital and, uh, you

2278
01:20:11,190 --> 01:20:13,070
know, that, that sort of knocks on your

2279
01:20:13,070 --> 01:20:15,710
door a little bit more aggressively and, and,

2280
01:20:16,170 --> 01:20:17,770
and gives you that kind of shared experience,

2281
01:20:17,770 --> 01:20:19,350
I think are all good things.

2282
01:20:19,510 --> 01:20:21,310
Maybe we're approaching this from the wrong direction.

2283
01:20:21,430 --> 01:20:24,270
Maybe the hosting companies should be doing more

2284
01:20:24,270 --> 01:20:26,130
of this work with app developers.

2285
01:20:27,390 --> 01:20:27,870
Hmm.

2286
01:20:28,650 --> 01:20:30,470
You know, maybe, well, yeah, yeah.

2287
01:20:30,470 --> 01:20:32,810
I mean, thinking about it in that regard,

2288
01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:36,230
like if, if the issue is the apps

2289
01:20:36,230 --> 01:20:40,430
aren't, if you may, if you make an

2290
01:20:40,430 --> 01:20:43,890
app experience, wonderful people will, people will talk

2291
01:20:43,890 --> 01:20:47,150
about the app experience and they'll, they won't

2292
01:20:47,150 --> 01:20:49,450
just talk about content.

2293
01:20:49,570 --> 01:20:51,050
They'll be like, Hey, you need to check

2294
01:20:51,050 --> 01:20:53,830
out this app because this app is giving

2295
01:20:53,830 --> 01:20:55,130
me a great experience.

2296
01:20:55,470 --> 01:20:59,590
And radio gives you live podcast apps, give

2297
01:20:59,590 --> 01:21:03,230
you on demand, but there could easily, now

2298
01:21:03,230 --> 01:21:06,870
that we have this live technology in 2

2299
01:21:06,870 --> 01:21:09,250
.0, there could easily be apps can easily

2300
01:21:09,250 --> 01:21:10,890
add the live component in.

2301
01:21:11,190 --> 01:21:13,330
And so, and then now you get both

2302
01:21:13,330 --> 01:21:14,990
in the pod in, in your app.

2303
01:21:15,650 --> 01:21:18,330
And now you've got, now, now you really

2304
01:21:18,330 --> 01:21:20,670
do have a sort of like a, this

2305
01:21:20,670 --> 01:21:24,970
natural transition over to, and, but see, that's

2306
01:21:24,970 --> 01:21:27,890
where YouTube is hamstrung because they're not going

2307
01:21:27,890 --> 01:21:31,810
to do the small niche live thing.

2308
01:21:32,250 --> 01:21:33,410
I mean, that's going to be a local,

2309
01:21:33,510 --> 01:21:35,770
those are going to be local podcasters doing,

2310
01:21:36,170 --> 01:21:38,190
you know, doing, doing their thing because it's

2311
01:21:38,190 --> 01:21:38,870
for the love of it.

2312
01:21:38,890 --> 01:21:40,330
They're not going to, they're not going to

2313
01:21:40,330 --> 01:21:43,170
get, they're not doing this for ad for,

2314
01:21:43,170 --> 01:21:46,210
for RevShare or whatever through YouTube.

2315
01:21:46,210 --> 01:21:48,990
That really could be a way to drive

2316
01:21:48,990 --> 01:21:53,510
podcasting, the podcasting apps as a sort of

2317
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:54,610
unique experience.

2318
01:21:54,750 --> 01:21:56,430
Well, I'll, and I agree and I'll add

2319
01:21:56,430 --> 01:21:56,910
to that.

2320
01:21:57,010 --> 01:21:58,630
And I, I kind of forget because it's

2321
01:21:58,630 --> 01:21:59,610
so normal for me.

2322
01:21:59,710 --> 01:22:02,610
Whenever I'm doing a podcast, I'm always looking

2323
01:22:02,610 --> 01:22:03,930
to the right out of the corner of

2324
01:22:03,930 --> 01:22:05,770
my eye because there's the, in this case,

2325
01:22:05,830 --> 01:22:09,110
the boardroom during no agenda, it's called the

2326
01:22:09,110 --> 01:22:09,770
troll room.

2327
01:22:09,970 --> 01:22:13,750
And that is an ephemeral experience that people

2328
01:22:13,750 --> 01:22:15,070
just completely.

2329
01:22:15,070 --> 01:22:16,770
So on a show day, we have anywhere

2330
01:22:16,770 --> 01:22:19,330
from two to 3000 people listening live.

2331
01:22:19,530 --> 01:22:21,870
And a portion of that is in our

2332
01:22:21,870 --> 01:22:23,870
chat room, which is just an IRC chat.

2333
01:22:23,930 --> 01:22:26,050
It just scrolls by, you know, it's like,

2334
01:22:26,250 --> 01:22:28,130
it's, you know, someone says something horrible.

2335
01:22:28,250 --> 01:22:29,210
I don't have to worry about it because

2336
01:22:29,210 --> 01:22:31,590
it'll be gone in five seconds.

2337
01:22:32,210 --> 01:22:34,470
And, you know, we have a tag for

2338
01:22:34,470 --> 01:22:35,130
that actually.

2339
01:22:35,770 --> 01:22:37,210
It's never been implemented.

2340
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:40,170
I don't know why, historical reasons.

2341
01:22:40,910 --> 01:22:43,730
But these types of these types of things,

2342
01:22:44,190 --> 01:22:46,310
even a replay of that, I mean, it's,

2343
01:22:46,470 --> 01:22:48,790
it's all, it can all be built, but

2344
01:22:48,790 --> 01:22:52,370
there's only so many app developers and they

2345
01:22:52,370 --> 01:22:56,410
are set in their particular path.

2346
01:22:56,870 --> 01:23:00,270
And I think it's scary for them to

2347
01:23:00,270 --> 01:23:01,810
change, honestly.

2348
01:23:02,570 --> 01:23:04,630
And, you know, the more I think about

2349
01:23:04,630 --> 01:23:07,310
it, the more I'm thinking, why isn't Buzzsprout

2350
01:23:07,310 --> 01:23:08,250
the media company?

2351
01:23:08,910 --> 01:23:11,790
Why aren't they, why aren't they, why aren't

2352
01:23:11,790 --> 01:23:14,450
they attracting people like, hey, be on our

2353
01:23:14,450 --> 01:23:15,690
true crime app?

2354
01:23:16,930 --> 01:23:17,650
That's interesting.

2355
01:23:18,270 --> 01:23:20,650
You know, they, they, they have the money.

2356
01:23:21,550 --> 01:23:21,970
Yeah.

2357
01:23:22,070 --> 01:23:25,090
They are the, those companies most consistently have,

2358
01:23:25,170 --> 01:23:26,650
have revenue out of the whole deal.

2359
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,140
You know, I'm thinking about, you know, the

2360
01:23:30,140 --> 01:23:31,700
troll room and things like that.

2361
01:23:31,700 --> 01:23:32,940
And, you know, I don't know how many

2362
01:23:32,940 --> 01:23:35,500
research webinars I've done in my life, you

2363
01:23:35,500 --> 01:23:37,860
know, a thousand, uh, and I always do

2364
01:23:37,860 --> 01:23:39,540
them live and I always pay attention to

2365
01:23:39,540 --> 01:23:42,160
the chat room and, you know, at least

2366
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:44,180
two or three times in the course of

2367
01:23:44,180 --> 01:23:47,180
a webinar, I'll acknowledge somebody saying something in

2368
01:23:47,180 --> 01:23:47,420
there.

2369
01:23:47,940 --> 01:23:49,420
And it doesn't take much.

2370
01:23:49,860 --> 01:23:52,660
Ultimately, people want to feel seen, they want

2371
01:23:52,660 --> 01:23:54,220
to feel seen, they want to feel special.

2372
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:56,960
And if there are ways that we can

2373
01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:59,640
do that in podcasting, I don't think it's

2374
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:01,020
a, it's a very difficult lift.

2375
01:24:01,300 --> 01:24:03,260
Just hasn't been tried a lot, right?

2376
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:04,580
It is part of live.

2377
01:24:04,580 --> 01:24:06,000
It's a part of the live show, certainly

2378
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:06,620
that you do.

2379
01:24:07,020 --> 01:24:09,520
Uh, but it's, you know, it has to

2380
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:11,480
become more a part of podcasting.

2381
01:24:11,500 --> 01:24:13,580
If we're going to continue to create that

2382
01:24:13,580 --> 01:24:15,940
shared experience that people want to gather around

2383
01:24:15,940 --> 01:24:18,440
the water cooler or whatever it is and

2384
01:24:18,440 --> 01:24:20,680
start to talk about what we do because

2385
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:22,660
no one else is coming to save us.

2386
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:24,760
You're, you're caller number 12.

2387
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:27,160
Well, uh, we'll give you a, we'll give

2388
01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:29,340
you that experience right now, Tom, as we

2389
01:24:29,340 --> 01:24:30,960
are about to thank some people who've been

2390
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,260
boosting during the show, which is actually sending

2391
01:24:33,260 --> 01:24:33,740
us money.

2392
01:24:34,580 --> 01:24:36,860
It's sending us money through the lightning network.

2393
01:24:36,980 --> 01:24:39,120
It's Bitcoin, which, uh, James Cridland says is

2394
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:39,840
a Ponzi scheme.

2395
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:44,850
So hang in there and see how it

2396
01:24:44,850 --> 01:24:46,250
works because people feel special.

2397
01:24:46,370 --> 01:24:48,250
When I call out Cole McCormick with 11,

2398
01:24:48,290 --> 01:24:50,930
11 sats coming in from fountain says I'm

2399
01:24:50,930 --> 01:24:53,170
live streaming Sunday nights.

2400
01:24:53,370 --> 01:24:54,270
He's promoting something.

2401
01:24:54,350 --> 01:24:55,610
I've been enjoying it more and more each

2402
01:24:55,610 --> 01:24:56,230
time I do it.

2403
01:24:56,290 --> 01:24:56,590
Yeah.

2404
01:24:56,790 --> 01:24:57,390
All right, Cole.

2405
01:24:58,490 --> 01:25:00,650
Uh, Marta Linda's code 1701.

2406
01:25:00,890 --> 01:25:02,190
That would be the enterprise boost.

2407
01:25:02,250 --> 01:25:04,810
Did the super comment spaceship booster Graham arrived

2408
01:25:04,810 --> 01:25:05,950
to your spaceship location?

2409
01:25:06,050 --> 01:25:06,170
Why?

2410
01:25:06,230 --> 01:25:06,630
Yes, it did.

2411
01:25:06,630 --> 01:25:10,830
He says, go pirate radio, free radio, uh,

2412
01:25:10,830 --> 01:25:13,690
from my ego netcast site, free radio history

2413
01:25:13,690 --> 01:25:15,890
and pirate radio, uh, radio North Sea.

2414
01:25:16,070 --> 01:25:16,170
Okay.

2415
01:25:17,470 --> 01:25:21,130
That by the way, that's live interaction, Tom.

2416
01:25:21,150 --> 01:25:25,330
That is boobery who just boosted 17,776

2417
01:25:25,330 --> 01:25:27,710
Satoshis, which is about 16 bucks.

2418
01:25:28,290 --> 01:25:29,750
Then he says we're wrapping up the first

2419
01:25:29,750 --> 01:25:31,730
season of the skirmish with the satellite skirmish

2420
01:25:31,730 --> 01:25:35,150
streaming lit May 10th, 2025, four bands, longer

2421
01:25:35,150 --> 01:25:36,170
sets, new artwork.

2422
01:25:36,410 --> 01:25:39,470
And mama Bury is joining the fray as

2423
01:25:39,470 --> 01:25:40,490
a boost alert artist.

2424
01:25:40,710 --> 01:25:41,910
Beware of the blooms.

2425
01:25:42,970 --> 01:25:45,310
And Eric PP just came in with 33

2426
01:25:45,310 --> 01:25:45,790
33.

2427
01:25:45,950 --> 01:25:49,170
Yeah, this, this is, this is see people

2428
01:25:49,170 --> 01:25:50,590
can trigger these sounds live.

2429
01:25:50,690 --> 01:25:51,470
I don't know if you ever listened to

2430
01:25:51,470 --> 01:25:52,190
our show, but they can.

2431
01:25:52,330 --> 01:25:53,530
Yes, I am aware of that.

2432
01:25:53,590 --> 01:25:53,750
Yeah.

2433
01:25:54,550 --> 01:25:56,750
Which you might've heard beeping here and there,

2434
01:25:56,810 --> 01:25:59,810
uh, 22, 22 from salty crayon.

2435
01:25:59,810 --> 01:26:02,410
Dave, here's your beef Wagyu sticks courtesy of

2436
01:26:02,410 --> 01:26:04,570
the beef initiative family owned and operated founded

2437
01:26:04,570 --> 01:26:07,290
by first-generation farmers Sawyer and Abby Cottrell

2438
01:26:07,290 --> 01:26:10,570
in 2021 transitioning from commercial Angus to premium

2439
01:26:10,570 --> 01:26:14,030
Wagyu cattle, beef, beef initiative.com as a

2440
01:26:14,030 --> 01:26:15,550
whole long URL there, which you can find

2441
01:26:15,550 --> 01:26:16,050
on fountain.

2442
01:26:16,390 --> 01:26:19,350
TJ band name, the beef initiative.

2443
01:26:19,590 --> 01:26:21,030
Yeah, well, the beef initiative.

2444
01:26:21,210 --> 01:26:23,170
Yeah, that's a good band name.

2445
01:26:23,450 --> 01:26:24,590
That's sort of like a punk version of

2446
01:26:24,590 --> 01:26:25,290
the style council.

2447
01:26:27,510 --> 01:26:28,930
Oh, poor Paul Weller.

2448
01:26:28,930 --> 01:26:30,610
One 11 sats from sir.

2449
01:26:30,670 --> 01:26:30,910
TJ.

2450
01:26:30,910 --> 01:26:32,750
The wrathful don't know how you pick that

2451
01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:34,870
Christian music plays on your hello Fred stream,

2452
01:26:34,990 --> 01:26:36,590
but you should check out the DC talks

2453
01:26:36,590 --> 01:26:36,950
album.

2454
01:26:37,090 --> 01:26:37,730
Jesus freak.

2455
01:26:37,870 --> 01:26:39,930
One of my top favorite Christian rock albums.

2456
01:26:40,090 --> 01:26:42,250
Door fulls are around just busy surviving.

2457
01:26:42,410 --> 01:26:43,390
Thank you for your courage.

2458
01:26:43,470 --> 01:26:43,830
Okay.

2459
01:26:44,190 --> 01:26:45,230
I'll check that out.

2460
01:26:45,290 --> 01:26:45,730
Thank you.

2461
01:26:46,570 --> 01:26:48,970
202 from salty crayon bat signal activated.

2462
01:26:49,090 --> 01:26:49,730
Yes, of course.

2463
01:26:49,850 --> 01:26:50,910
And we're glad that you caught that.

2464
01:26:50,950 --> 01:26:52,710
And I hit the delimiter there with comic

2465
01:26:52,710 --> 01:26:53,270
strip bloggers.

2466
01:26:53,330 --> 01:26:54,850
So Dave will thank some of the people

2467
01:26:54,850 --> 01:26:57,870
who have supported us with the PayPal's and

2468
01:26:57,870 --> 01:26:58,670
the monthly's.

2469
01:26:59,590 --> 01:27:00,370
Yeah, we got one.

2470
01:27:00,550 --> 01:27:04,710
We got one PayPal this week from the

2471
01:27:04,710 --> 01:27:06,610
guys at buzzsprout $1,000.

2472
01:27:06,930 --> 01:27:07,850
Now you're talking.

2473
01:27:09,030 --> 01:27:12,450
Shot Carla 20 is blaze on the Impala.

2474
01:27:13,230 --> 01:27:13,830
How many?

2475
01:27:14,010 --> 01:27:15,910
How many CPMs would you have to have

2476
01:27:15,910 --> 01:27:16,350
for that?

2477
01:27:16,610 --> 01:27:17,230
Tom Webster.

2478
01:27:18,270 --> 01:27:19,950
I'm really bad at math.

2479
01:27:21,610 --> 01:27:23,190
CPM CPM math go.

2480
01:27:23,930 --> 01:27:25,230
Yeah, I'm really bad at math.

2481
01:27:25,350 --> 01:27:26,370
So don't ask me that.

2482
01:27:27,130 --> 01:27:29,250
We got a couple of boosts.

2483
01:27:29,290 --> 01:27:29,730
Thank you.

2484
01:27:29,850 --> 01:27:33,630
And we're and I've pinged Tom and Kevin.

2485
01:27:33,790 --> 01:27:34,710
We got to get him back on because

2486
01:27:34,710 --> 01:27:35,410
it's been too long.

2487
01:27:35,630 --> 01:27:36,010
Well, we have.

2488
01:27:36,150 --> 01:27:37,210
We have something to talk about.

2489
01:27:37,370 --> 01:27:38,670
We have something to talk about now.

2490
01:27:38,890 --> 01:27:40,090
And it's like, hey, you guys should be

2491
01:27:40,090 --> 01:27:41,970
making apps become a media company.

2492
01:27:44,090 --> 01:27:46,590
See loss on Linux and it's 2222 through

2493
01:27:46,590 --> 01:27:46,930
fountain.

2494
01:27:47,030 --> 01:27:49,230
He says the problem is overcoming known habits.

2495
01:27:49,850 --> 01:27:51,530
People know how a search engine and browsing

2496
01:27:51,530 --> 01:27:53,790
the internet works, even though that may be

2497
01:27:53,790 --> 01:27:55,590
more effort than when you have a podcast

2498
01:27:55,590 --> 01:27:56,250
app set up.

2499
01:27:56,750 --> 01:27:58,330
You don't need to learn the new thing.

2500
01:27:58,870 --> 01:28:01,090
That's why in e-commerce, allowing checkout without

2501
01:28:01,090 --> 01:28:03,030
registering an account is super effective.

2502
01:28:03,550 --> 01:28:05,690
People don't want to do chores like filling

2503
01:28:05,690 --> 01:28:07,370
in your name and everything in a sign

2504
01:28:07,370 --> 01:28:09,210
up page or learning what a podcast app

2505
01:28:09,210 --> 01:28:09,490
is.

2506
01:28:09,950 --> 01:28:10,690
What's RSS?

2507
01:28:11,030 --> 01:28:13,450
What's a good podcast app, et cetera?

2508
01:28:14,290 --> 01:28:15,090
Good points.

2509
01:28:15,270 --> 01:28:16,070
Yeah, I agree.

2510
01:28:16,650 --> 01:28:17,310
Very good points.

2511
01:28:17,970 --> 01:28:18,810
We've got.

2512
01:28:19,050 --> 01:28:20,010
Oh, and then the delimiter.

2513
01:28:20,110 --> 01:28:21,730
We just had one boost from the from

2514
01:28:21,730 --> 01:28:22,230
the weeklies.

2515
01:28:22,790 --> 01:28:23,750
Comedy strip blogger.

2516
01:28:24,050 --> 01:28:26,310
Eighteen thousand and ten sets through fountain, he

2517
01:28:26,310 --> 01:28:26,490
says.

2518
01:28:26,990 --> 01:28:27,730
Howdy, Dave and Adam.

2519
01:28:28,290 --> 01:28:30,010
I'm sure that among your listeners, there are

2520
01:28:30,010 --> 01:28:32,130
people who could use fasting to get healthier,

2521
01:28:32,450 --> 01:28:33,610
not just fat.

2522
01:28:33,650 --> 01:28:38,490
So I recommend free financed by voluntary donations.

2523
01:28:38,650 --> 01:28:41,950
Fasting app from easy fast app dot com

2524
01:28:41,950 --> 01:28:46,570
called easy fast available for iPhone, Android and

2525
01:28:46,570 --> 01:28:46,830
Apple.

2526
01:28:46,830 --> 01:28:50,850
Watch the easiest, most beautiful, comprehensive and accessible

2527
01:28:50,850 --> 01:28:54,110
app for fasting made by someone who actually

2528
01:28:54,110 --> 01:28:54,650
fasts.

2529
01:28:55,390 --> 01:28:58,010
Adam's gal pal DC girl recommended it.

2530
01:28:58,130 --> 01:28:59,030
So it must be good.

2531
01:28:59,190 --> 01:29:01,430
I use it to yoke CSB.

2532
01:29:01,650 --> 01:29:03,310
CSB is an amazing guy.

2533
01:29:03,370 --> 01:29:05,090
He promoted that on Curry and the Keeper

2534
01:29:05,090 --> 01:29:05,530
as well.

2535
01:29:06,050 --> 01:29:09,270
He's he just boosts people and and buys

2536
01:29:09,270 --> 01:29:10,030
the airtime.

2537
01:29:10,910 --> 01:29:13,030
And if you're not into fasting, the beef

2538
01:29:13,030 --> 01:29:15,790
initiative, don't forget about the beef.

2539
01:29:15,790 --> 01:29:18,110
The beef initiative is the thing, man.

2540
01:29:18,210 --> 01:29:18,970
It really is.

2541
01:29:19,190 --> 01:29:20,130
It's you should look at it.

2542
01:29:20,210 --> 01:29:21,870
You should look at beef maps dot com.

2543
01:29:22,270 --> 01:29:25,010
You can find your local rancher and you

2544
01:29:25,010 --> 01:29:27,370
can buy direct from the rancher.

2545
01:29:27,510 --> 01:29:30,250
It's every every month, 20 pounds of ground

2546
01:29:30,250 --> 01:29:30,470
beef.

2547
01:29:31,650 --> 01:29:35,090
It's cheaper to is so it is very

2548
01:29:35,090 --> 01:29:35,510
weird.

2549
01:29:35,930 --> 01:29:38,450
But for some reason, it's cheaper to get

2550
01:29:38,450 --> 01:29:40,870
20 pounds of ground beef shipped to me

2551
01:29:40,870 --> 01:29:42,790
from Texas than it is to buy it

2552
01:29:42,790 --> 01:29:43,490
locally.

2553
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:44,790
I know it's crazy.

2554
01:29:44,790 --> 01:29:45,590
It's crazy.

2555
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:45,950
I know.

2556
01:29:46,030 --> 01:29:47,110
I don't know why.

2557
01:29:47,230 --> 01:29:48,550
I mean, like whatever.

2558
01:29:49,750 --> 01:29:51,570
But they they sent me a note the

2559
01:29:51,570 --> 01:29:53,290
other day and was like, would you like

2560
01:29:53,290 --> 01:29:54,630
since you do this so much?

2561
01:29:54,670 --> 01:29:57,210
Do you want one pound packages or two

2562
01:29:57,210 --> 01:29:57,790
pound packages?

2563
01:29:57,870 --> 01:30:00,050
They're like they're now they're like bespoking my

2564
01:30:00,050 --> 01:30:00,950
packaging for me.

2565
01:30:01,030 --> 01:30:01,490
Who was this?

2566
01:30:01,590 --> 01:30:02,430
Was this KNC?

2567
01:30:03,330 --> 01:30:03,690
KNC.

2568
01:30:03,850 --> 01:30:04,490
Oh, nice.

2569
01:30:04,590 --> 01:30:05,110
Very nice.

2570
01:30:07,630 --> 01:30:07,790
Yes.

2571
01:30:07,930 --> 01:30:08,030
Go ahead.

2572
01:30:08,370 --> 01:30:09,890
Well, that was it, right?

2573
01:30:09,970 --> 01:30:10,350
You're done.

2574
01:30:11,130 --> 01:30:12,030
No, I've got monthly.

2575
01:30:12,190 --> 01:30:13,870
So I got new media productions.

2576
01:30:13,870 --> 01:30:16,110
That's that's a boy.

2577
01:30:16,150 --> 01:30:17,190
Todd over blueberry.

2578
01:30:17,490 --> 01:30:18,330
Thirty dollars.

2579
01:30:18,470 --> 01:30:19,010
Thank you, Todd.

2580
01:30:19,570 --> 01:30:20,090
Thank you, Todd.

2581
01:30:20,190 --> 01:30:21,030
Gene Liverman.

2582
01:30:21,090 --> 01:30:21,690
Five dollars.

2583
01:30:21,810 --> 01:30:22,410
Michael Hall.

2584
01:30:22,590 --> 01:30:23,730
Five dollars and 50 cents.

2585
01:30:24,290 --> 01:30:24,850
Timothy Voice.

2586
01:30:24,950 --> 01:30:25,590
Ten dollars.

2587
01:30:26,750 --> 01:30:28,410
Trevor is Satan's lawyer.

2588
01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:29,410
Five dollars.

2589
01:30:29,910 --> 01:30:31,510
Where's the six six six that he used

2590
01:30:31,510 --> 01:30:31,890
to send?

2591
01:30:32,050 --> 01:30:33,790
He's not doing the right numbers anymore.

2592
01:30:34,430 --> 01:30:37,530
No, he's just he's his interest is waning.

2593
01:30:38,890 --> 01:30:39,790
Oystein Berger.

2594
01:30:40,090 --> 01:30:40,810
Five dollars.

2595
01:30:41,610 --> 01:30:42,310
Jorge Hernandez.

2596
01:30:42,510 --> 01:30:42,950
Five dollars.

2597
01:30:42,950 --> 01:30:43,610
And Michael Goggin.

2598
01:30:43,670 --> 01:30:44,150
Five dollars.

2599
01:30:44,230 --> 01:30:44,750
And that's our group.

2600
01:30:44,970 --> 01:30:45,890
Thank you all very much.

2601
01:30:45,970 --> 01:30:47,770
Oystein Berger will be on the live stream

2602
01:30:47,770 --> 01:30:49,970
right after we're done with his his crazy

2603
01:30:49,970 --> 01:30:52,530
music podcast, which you can, of course, boost

2604
01:30:52,530 --> 01:30:53,830
on the modern podcast apps.

2605
01:30:54,710 --> 01:30:56,310
And thank you all very much for supporting

2606
01:30:56,310 --> 01:30:56,650
the podcast.

2607
01:30:56,670 --> 01:30:58,070
This is the podcast in 2.0, but

2608
01:30:58,070 --> 01:30:59,330
you're really supporting the index.

2609
01:30:59,410 --> 01:31:02,170
It keeps everything rolling, keeps the the servers

2610
01:31:02,170 --> 01:31:02,870
humming along.

2611
01:31:02,890 --> 01:31:04,910
Thank you, especially to the bus bus sprout

2612
01:31:04,910 --> 01:31:05,170
guys.

2613
01:31:05,210 --> 01:31:06,450
We appreciate those monthlies.

2614
01:31:06,490 --> 01:31:07,370
That really does help.

2615
01:31:07,850 --> 01:31:08,470
Tom Webster.

2616
01:31:08,550 --> 01:31:10,030
I'm so glad that you came on.

2617
01:31:10,070 --> 01:31:12,050
I'm glad that we got some radio experience.

2618
01:31:12,050 --> 01:31:14,070
Finally, you got a little chance to talk

2619
01:31:14,070 --> 01:31:14,470
with us.

2620
01:31:15,030 --> 01:31:16,010
Get on the mic.

2621
01:31:16,170 --> 01:31:17,170
It's a mic time.

2622
01:31:17,270 --> 01:31:18,050
Get some mic time.

2623
01:31:18,170 --> 01:31:18,810
It's a mic time.

2624
01:31:18,950 --> 01:31:20,270
Yeah, I'm starved for it.

2625
01:31:20,350 --> 01:31:21,950
Do you feel like we've learned anything from

2626
01:31:21,950 --> 01:31:22,210
this?

2627
01:31:22,270 --> 01:31:23,670
Have we have we gotten anywhere?

2628
01:31:23,850 --> 01:31:26,670
Have we have we have we triggered some?

2629
01:31:26,830 --> 01:31:29,210
Will there be a new article that you're

2630
01:31:29,210 --> 01:31:29,750
going to write?

2631
01:31:29,790 --> 01:31:30,770
I guess that's what I'm asking.

2632
01:31:31,830 --> 01:31:34,010
You know, if if we have done nothing

2633
01:31:34,010 --> 01:31:37,750
more than pleasantly pass the time in a

2634
01:31:37,750 --> 01:31:40,010
way where that pleasantry is passed along to

2635
01:31:40,010 --> 01:31:41,910
the audience, that is enough.

2636
01:31:42,210 --> 01:31:43,210
That is that is sufficient.

2637
01:31:43,310 --> 01:31:45,510
But these things are continuing to to ruminate

2638
01:31:45,510 --> 01:31:46,930
in the back of my head and they

2639
01:31:46,930 --> 01:31:47,610
won't disappear.

2640
01:31:47,810 --> 01:31:48,290
That's for sure.

2641
01:31:48,630 --> 01:31:50,870
OK, well, we we really appreciate you coming

2642
01:31:50,870 --> 01:31:51,230
on.

2643
01:31:51,410 --> 01:31:53,950
Say hi to your partner, Brian Barletta.

2644
01:31:55,450 --> 01:31:56,930
And what are you doing this weekend?

2645
01:31:58,590 --> 01:32:01,670
I I'm entertaining two teenage boys this weekend.

2646
01:32:02,470 --> 01:32:03,870
That sounds not really wrong.

2647
01:32:04,330 --> 01:32:05,390
It sounded really wrong.

2648
01:32:05,470 --> 01:32:06,010
Yeah, no.

2649
01:32:06,310 --> 01:32:09,550
Yeah, my yes, I have my wife's sons

2650
01:32:09,550 --> 01:32:10,290
are staying with us.

2651
01:32:10,290 --> 01:32:11,910
OK, OK, all right.

2652
01:32:12,810 --> 01:32:15,170
So video games basically is what you're doing.

2653
01:32:15,290 --> 01:32:17,370
Video games all weekend long at Tom's house.

2654
01:32:17,730 --> 01:32:18,950
You know, and board games.

2655
01:32:19,150 --> 01:32:20,730
We've we're really getting into board games lately,

2656
01:32:20,790 --> 01:32:21,930
which I'm thrilled about.

2657
01:32:22,190 --> 01:32:24,910
So I'm telling you, these kids, man, they're

2658
01:32:24,910 --> 01:32:26,450
going back to some traditional things.

2659
01:32:26,570 --> 01:32:28,490
Are they are these phones, board games?

2660
01:32:28,570 --> 01:32:28,690
Yeah.

2661
01:32:28,710 --> 01:32:30,370
Are they zoomers or they they got to

2662
01:32:30,370 --> 01:32:31,290
be zoomers, you know?

2663
01:32:31,550 --> 01:32:32,050
Oh, for sure.

2664
01:32:32,130 --> 01:32:32,390
Yeah.

2665
01:32:32,830 --> 01:32:33,330
Very nice.

2666
01:32:33,770 --> 01:32:36,030
Dave, are you going to have some downtime?

2667
01:32:36,250 --> 01:32:37,770
Will you be doing sheetrock?

2668
01:32:38,550 --> 01:32:40,810
Oh, no, I'm fixing a I'm fixing a

2669
01:32:40,810 --> 01:32:42,770
mechanical fuel pump on the city.

2670
01:32:43,750 --> 01:32:46,030
I'm already getting 11 miles to the gallon.

2671
01:32:46,210 --> 01:32:48,190
So now I now I find out that

2672
01:32:48,190 --> 01:32:50,270
I'm dumping an extra half gallon between tank

2673
01:32:50,270 --> 01:32:51,610
fill ups on the ground.

2674
01:32:52,450 --> 01:32:54,290
All right, Tom, we'd love for you to

2675
01:32:54,290 --> 01:32:56,110
come back if you next time you write

2676
01:32:56,110 --> 01:32:56,930
a scathing article.

2677
01:32:57,250 --> 01:32:58,410
Be fun to have you.

2678
01:32:59,090 --> 01:33:00,830
And I didn't scathe.

2679
01:33:00,970 --> 01:33:01,730
There was no scathing.

2680
01:33:01,870 --> 01:33:03,890
No, I took it exactly the right way.

2681
01:33:03,930 --> 01:33:06,510
And you're you're you're speaking my language with

2682
01:33:06,510 --> 01:33:08,670
in to a certain degree.

2683
01:33:08,830 --> 01:33:10,250
We may have different approaches to it.

2684
01:33:11,050 --> 01:33:13,410
And I think that you'll see there are

2685
01:33:13,410 --> 01:33:14,550
there are changes ahead.

2686
01:33:14,650 --> 01:33:15,450
A lot is happening.

2687
01:33:15,790 --> 01:33:18,770
And hopefully some app developers and hosting companies

2688
01:33:18,770 --> 01:33:19,570
take this to heart.

2689
01:33:19,690 --> 01:33:21,190
The stuff that we talked about, because I

2690
01:33:21,190 --> 01:33:23,810
think there's a lot of opportunity and it

2691
01:33:23,810 --> 01:33:24,630
definitely is not.

2692
01:33:24,790 --> 01:33:25,230
You're right.

2693
01:33:25,270 --> 01:33:26,690
It's not a video conversation.

2694
01:33:26,930 --> 01:33:29,650
That's that's the reddest of all herrings I've

2695
01:33:29,650 --> 01:33:30,170
ever seen.

2696
01:33:30,410 --> 01:33:30,610
Yeah.

2697
01:33:30,870 --> 01:33:31,390
But it's fun.

2698
01:33:31,410 --> 01:33:32,170
It's fun to do.

2699
01:33:32,390 --> 01:33:33,730
You know, it sells a lot of video

2700
01:33:33,730 --> 01:33:34,490
gear, I'm sure.

2701
01:33:35,570 --> 01:33:37,550
Well, I appreciate you having me on and

2702
01:33:37,550 --> 01:33:39,870
I will give you the the highest compliment

2703
01:33:39,870 --> 01:33:41,450
I can offer is that this show doesn't

2704
01:33:41,450 --> 01:33:41,790
suck.

2705
01:33:41,950 --> 01:33:45,490
Oh, yeah, that's the that's the bar we

2706
01:33:45,490 --> 01:33:45,810
wanted.

2707
01:33:46,070 --> 01:33:47,470
That's exactly where I want to be.

2708
01:33:47,550 --> 01:33:48,150
Thank you very much.

2709
01:33:48,230 --> 01:33:50,210
Boardroom will be back next Friday, right here

2710
01:33:50,210 --> 01:34:11,480
on podcasting 2.0. Podcasting

2711
01:34:11,480 --> 01:34:16,200
2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for more information.

2712
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:20,260
I mean, cats are more cooperative.