1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,440 Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting two point over April 26 2024 Episode 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:12,390 177 Can GPT Friday again hello everybody how you doing? Welcome 3 00:00:12,390 --> 00:00:16,380 to podcasting. 2.0 This is where we discuss everything that's 4 00:00:16,380 --> 00:00:20,790 really happening under the hood in podcasting, podcasting. 2.0 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,660 everything that we got going on a podcast index.org podcast 6 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:28,680 index dot social, Learn more at podcasting to.org We are the 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,860 only boardroom that has bleachers and beanbags. I'm Adam 8 00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:34,350 curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in 9 00:00:34,350 --> 00:00:37,860 Alabama, the man who can move tags from items to channels and 10 00:00:37,860 --> 00:00:40,680 back again, say hello to my friend on the other end one only 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,770 Mr. De Jones. 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,340 Dave Jones: Did you send in our payment? Our payment? Yeah, for 13 00:00:50,340 --> 00:00:52,260 the A for IAB membership. 14 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:56,100 Adam Curry: We're compliant, bro. What do you mean? I don't I 15 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:58,710 don't. We don't have to actually do that. We just say we're 16 00:00:58,710 --> 00:01:00,780 compliant. Isn't that not what I learned? 17 00:01:02,490 --> 00:01:06,870 Dave Jones: I would prefer if I had to choose a tag the badge to 18 00:01:06,870 --> 00:01:09,510 put on the site I would prefer when they said I be non 19 00:01:09,510 --> 00:01:10,050 compliant. 20 00:01:11,220 --> 00:01:14,520 Adam Curry: That's now now now now now. Now. Now. Is that thing 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,210 falling apart? I mean, it megaphone is not a part of it. 22 00:01:18,210 --> 00:01:22,230 Isn't that doesn't that kind of isn't that 30% of all of all 23 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:27,810 podcasts? Listening apps? Again, I don't I don't know. But no, 24 00:01:27,810 --> 00:01:33,420 that was that doesn't make any difference. It's about the the 25 00:01:33,420 --> 00:01:35,610 log for the megaphone but they got it. They got a lot of 26 00:01:35,610 --> 00:01:38,520 business, don't they? megaphone, they got Romania. Oh yeah. They 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:39,270 got Rogan. 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,870 Dave Jones: A lot of business, so maybe No, no, no. Do 29 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:44,700 Adam Curry: they have that? Yeah, I thought they had Rogan. 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,030 megaphone feeds for rods, right. Yeah, that's right. But maybe 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,290 they maybe that's Grogan? Yeah, they got they got Rogan feeds 32 00:01:52,290 --> 00:01:56,790 now, we got to make sure these numbers live up to expectations. 33 00:01:57,420 --> 00:01:59,490 Dave Jones: Which requires not having the IB 34 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:03,600 Unknown: probably correct. Yeah. That's 35 00:02:04,350 --> 00:02:06,750 Dave Jones: double checking this because I think initially Rogan 36 00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:09,870 was not on megaphone and everybody was like What? 37 00:02:10,079 --> 00:02:10,409 Unknown: No, I 38 00:02:10,410 --> 00:02:12,840 Adam Curry: think he changed overnight. I think I remember an 39 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,020 article or something that he that he turned over. I think 40 00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:20,670 your went to. And Todd over there blueberry selling host 41 00:02:20,670 --> 00:02:24,930 read ads. Now. That's nice. I can't wait. I can't wait for us 42 00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:25,530 to do so. 43 00:02:26,430 --> 00:02:28,680 Unknown: Are we going to do host rails? No, of course. Yeah. Why 44 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,040 not? Host 45 00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:38,070 Dave Jones: or your download? Or your or your download numbers. 46 00:02:38,340 --> 00:02:42,330 Too low? Yeah, join the IB. We can jack them up by 10%. 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,810 Adam Curry: So I was looking at speaking of Spotify, I'm looking 48 00:02:45,810 --> 00:02:52,380 at it all kind of clicked. You know, Spotify reported a net 49 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:57,300 profit. But was it net cash or some? It's some some scammy 50 00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:02,670 words. But what they did is they bundled by from what I 51 00:03:02,670 --> 00:03:07,080 understand when they added audiobooks. And now it makes a 52 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,530 lot of sense. If you add audio books to your app, then all of a 53 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:15,030 sudden you're a bundle app and you're not just a music app. And 54 00:03:15,030 --> 00:03:20,130 therefore you can pay 25% Less royalties to artists. 55 00:03:21,750 --> 00:03:26,190 Dave Jones: Whoa, wait what yeah, this is I looked into the 56 00:03:26,190 --> 00:03:29,430 Spotify stuff that I this is all new to me to explain this to me. 57 00:03:29,730 --> 00:03:33,570 Adam Curry: Okay, let me see if I can find it. Yeah, so the way 58 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,740 the rules work because audiobooks also have a they also 59 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:40,770 have royalties and stuff, I guess. Let me see where was 60 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,840 where was that he should there was a lot here here we go. from 61 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,230 finance, finance, US Finance as Yahoo Finance us. 62 00:03:49,980 --> 00:03:53,670 Unknown: That's cool. Spanish, Spanish Yahoo. Yes. Spotify 63 00:03:53,670 --> 00:03:57,330 Adam Curry: is music. Audio Book bundle means a lower royalty 64 00:03:57,330 --> 00:04:02,130 rate for us songwriters, but company promises record payouts 65 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:03,540 Okay, that's always 66 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:07,350 Dave Jones: sure. We don't have to but we're going to because we 67 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:07,920 love you. 68 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,530 Adam Curry: Spotify is premium plans combining music and 69 00:04:10,530 --> 00:04:13,320 audiobooks will mean a lower mechanical royalty rate for 70 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,600 songwriters on those plans the company has confirmed that's 71 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:19,410 interesting 72 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,460 Dave Jones: what Where's this coming from? Like what what 73 00:04:23,460 --> 00:04:27,060 legal legality is this related to 74 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:28,740 Adam Curry: mechanical rights? 75 00:04:29,460 --> 00:04:32,730 Dave Jones: So in every country or just the US are lazy, 76 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:35,580 Adam Curry: all mechanical rights are a worldwide thing. I 77 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:39,840 mean, this is this is okay. This is a publishing this. Let me 78 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:44,250 see. Let me see if I can find any official continue Orlando la 79 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:49,710 historia. Okay. So click here to read the rest of the story. 80 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:55,890 Okay, with the introduction of standalone audiobooks, 81 00:04:55,890 --> 00:04:58,860 offerings, Spotify is now able to pay lower music licensing 82 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:03,000 rates for the music and An audio book bundle introduced in the US 83 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,200 in November 2023. The 2022 settlement agreement between the 84 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,050 national music Publishers Association and streaming 85 00:05:10,050 --> 00:05:15,450 services included a carve out for bundles such as Amazon Prime 86 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:18,990 Apple Music plus Apple news, which the new audiobook offering 87 00:05:18,990 --> 00:05:22,260 falls under such lower such plans lower the mechanical 88 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:26,550 licensing rates, the company pays in the US. Spotify is lower 89 00:05:26,550 --> 00:05:31,080 royalty rates are retroactive, retroactive to march 1 2024. 90 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,120 Whoa, so, you know, that's a big deal. When you do like you're 91 00:05:36,150 --> 00:05:39,810 you're not reporting profit, but net cash or something like that. 92 00:05:40,350 --> 00:05:44,310 You can also be projecting into the future. So there's certain 93 00:05:44,310 --> 00:05:47,880 expenses that you don't have to mention. It's kind of like the 94 00:05:48,030 --> 00:05:50,940 inflation rate Core inflation, which doesn't include food, 95 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:52,140 housing and gas. 96 00:05:53,070 --> 00:05:55,350 Unknown: What about Super core? Super 97 00:05:55,350 --> 00:05:57,780 Adam Curry: core takes out I mean, living you don't live is 98 00:05:57,780 --> 00:06:00,090 just some stuff. Amazon deliveries 99 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,760 Dave Jones: is another bit Amazon deliveries and DoorDash. 100 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:06,390 Yeah, so 101 00:06:06,420 --> 00:06:09,990 Adam Curry: so that means that you know, they probably and also 102 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:12,930 with an increase in subscription price, that's probably how 103 00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:15,810 they're, you know, how they jacked up those numbers. It's 104 00:06:15,810 --> 00:06:17,970 great. I mean, it's a public company, I know how this works 105 00:06:17,970 --> 00:06:21,510 is creative accounting. You know how this works. Who am I? Who am 106 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:23,460 I tell him who am I talking to? You 107 00:06:23,460 --> 00:06:26,070 Dave Jones: know, I mean, this. This is a great, this is a great 108 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:31,770 move, by the way, because if everybody else is doing it, this 109 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:35,640 test so that means that they they added audio books, not 110 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,790 because they give a crap about audio books. That's what they 111 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:43,080 don't tell a single audio book. Now. 112 00:06:44,190 --> 00:06:47,820 Adam Curry: nmpa president CEO David Israelite had strong words 113 00:06:47,820 --> 00:06:51,120 for the moon. When contacted for comment by variety to appear. 114 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,630 Spotify has returned to it, attacking the very current the 115 00:06:54,630 --> 00:06:57,900 very songwriters who make its business possible. Spotify is 116 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:00,210 attempt to radically reduce songwriting payments by 117 00:07:00,210 --> 00:07:03,390 classifying their music service as an audiobook boom bundle is a 118 00:07:03,390 --> 00:07:07,710 cynical and potentially unlawful move. That ends our period of 119 00:07:07,710 --> 00:07:12,420 relative peace. We're on. We're on the warpath. You want to 120 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:14,130 stand for their perversion? 121 00:07:15,420 --> 00:07:17,550 Dave Jones: Rocket noises or something? They're going to go? 122 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:20,430 Adam Curry: Well, if you want that, oh, yeah, it 123 00:07:20,430 --> 00:07:24,600 Dave Jones: was this piece will not stand is invalid piece is 124 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:25,080 what it is. 125 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:29,670 Adam Curry: We need to have. We need where's my rocket ships? I 126 00:07:29,670 --> 00:07:33,780 got rocket sock homes. Oh, here we go. We need cruise missile. 127 00:07:37,290 --> 00:07:40,350 Net pops, you need more than that. Yes, somebody like this. 128 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,890 We will not stand for this Spotify, we will get you we'll 129 00:07:43,890 --> 00:07:52,290 see real quick attack. Snap props. Yeah, it's 130 00:07:52,290 --> 00:07:53,550 Dave Jones: much more interesting with that. 131 00:07:53,550 --> 00:07:54,630 Otherwise, it's kind of boring. 132 00:07:54,660 --> 00:07:56,850 Adam Curry: But that that totally made sense to me. 133 00:07:57,930 --> 00:08:00,960 Totally makes sense at all. And all the oil people love our 134 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,380 audio books, you really don't know if that's true. Well, 135 00:08:04,380 --> 00:08:07,170 Dave Jones: this book, their audio book, this makes so much 136 00:08:07,170 --> 00:08:12,510 more sense because their audio book deal is awful. Like you get 137 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:18,360 you're not even in the same league with like Audible, like 138 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,680 as far as like cost goes is not even close. So it doesn't that 139 00:08:22,830 --> 00:08:26,310 they don't care if they sell a single audio book. This is all 140 00:08:26,310 --> 00:08:29,850 about getting this is similar to their previous thing where they 141 00:08:29,850 --> 00:08:37,260 had where they, they clearly were using the increase in 142 00:08:37,290 --> 00:08:43,140 monthly active users from anchor to get their MA You rate up on a 143 00:08:43,140 --> 00:08:47,220 month over month basis. So they can retain their their lower 144 00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:50,100 royalty deal to the music companies. And this is going to 145 00:08:50,100 --> 00:08:54,840 happen this is going to they've they've coiled they've like 146 00:08:54,870 --> 00:09:00,330 coiled the spring now. So that it's it's ready because now what 147 00:09:00,330 --> 00:09:02,310 they're going to do is I don't know if you saw the little bit 148 00:09:02,310 --> 00:09:09,990 of news where they said they're going to start basically joining 149 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:13,110 Spotify for podcaster. accounts to 150 00:09:13,140 --> 00:09:15,810 Adam Curry: I didn't Yeah, I saw but I didn't really focus on it. 151 00:09:15,810 --> 00:09:17,220 What does that mean? Yeah, 152 00:09:17,220 --> 00:09:19,770 Dave Jones: so right now they're two separate accounts you see 153 00:09:19,770 --> 00:09:23,790 you have what you have is a historic anchor account. So when 154 00:09:23,790 --> 00:09:26,100 you sign up for Spotify for podcasters, you're signing up, 155 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:28,890 it's different than your Spotify account, okay? What they're 156 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:31,560 gonna do is they're gonna migrate these users over to 157 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:35,580 using a Spotify account. So now when you sign up for Spotify for 158 00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:39,000 podcasters you're going to be using you have to use a Spotify 159 00:09:39,030 --> 00:09:45,060 account so that immediately they have like six roughly million 160 00:09:45,060 --> 00:09:49,440 podcast on Spotify for podcasters. So as they migrate 161 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,160 these user accounts over to be Spotify accounts. They're gonna 162 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,430 get they're gonna I mean these this is going to make that NAU 163 00:09:56,430 --> 00:10:01,590 number go up a whole lot. Going forward, if you want to have as 164 00:10:02,070 --> 00:10:05,130 an essentially what is an anchor account, you got to sign up for 165 00:10:05,130 --> 00:10:09,900 Spotify. So it's like a win win, you know, to keep that ma you 166 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:10,680 truck rolling. 167 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,310 Adam Curry: I'm glad I don't run a public company anymore. It's 168 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:15,150 so painful. 169 00:10:16,289 --> 00:10:18,119 Dave Jones: It's paying the other. The other thing I took 170 00:10:18,119 --> 00:10:21,659 out of the Spotify earnings, though, was that when they break 171 00:10:21,659 --> 00:10:24,899 it out in the premium users, meaning the people that pay for 172 00:10:24,899 --> 00:10:32,039 the service monthly, their share of revenue was $3.2 billion for 173 00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:37,259 the quarter ad supported, basically the free users. The ad 174 00:10:37,259 --> 00:10:42,779 income from those their share of revenue was 389 million. That's 175 00:10:42,869 --> 00:10:48,779 more than 10x Less Wow, revenue from ads. That's that's just 176 00:10:49,049 --> 00:10:49,529 pointing 177 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:52,050 Adam Curry: numbers. Yeah, that's low. 178 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,150 Dave Jones: It's, it tells me like when you give somebody a 179 00:10:57,150 --> 00:11:00,000 chance to just flat out pay for something they do it just make 180 00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:03,750 you make more money. Yeah. The ad and the ad route is just 181 00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:05,370 selling yourself short. Well, not. 182 00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:09,780 Adam Curry: Not in all cases, not in all cases. New York Times 183 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:20,130 had a a big expose a on NPR brought clips. Oh, you did? Oh, 184 00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:24,180 let me read the the what caught my eye. The title of the piece 185 00:11:24,180 --> 00:11:30,300 is inside the crisis at NPR, the crisis. And speaking of bundles, 186 00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:35,670 adoption of NPR is podcast subscription bundle. NPR plus, 187 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,180 has also lagged behind competitors subscription 188 00:11:39,180 --> 00:11:41,850 businesses, according to internal documents obtained by 189 00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:47,580 the New York Times, those crafty Times reporters. About 51,000 190 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:51,990 people subscribe to NPR plus as of early March, and the product 191 00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:55,740 has generated $1.7 million in revenue since it was introduced 192 00:11:55,740 --> 00:12:05,580 November 22. Yikes, that's that's unexpectedly low. In late 193 00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:10,020 2022, NPR began selling fewer sponsorships part of an overall 194 00:12:10,020 --> 00:12:13,380 downturn in the ad market, which I mean is that not Can we can we 195 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:16,920 confirm this now anyone actually copped to it? But so for the 196 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,090 first time since the COVID 19 pandemic, that Mr. Lansing then 197 00:12:21,090 --> 00:12:24,630 the CEO and his team plan for NPRs revenue to remain flat in 198 00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:29,850 2023. He wasn't prepared for what happened next. When January 199 00:12:29,850 --> 00:12:35,550 arrived, the bottom the bottom the bottom, the bottom fell out 200 00:12:35,970 --> 00:12:39,330 of the digital ad market. It did he said in an interview 201 00:12:39,330 --> 00:12:43,740 sponsorships fell $34 million compared with the previous year. 202 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:48,060 And yet somehow the overall podcast advertising market is 203 00:12:48,060 --> 00:12:53,700 now 18 billion. It's amazing. It's doing great. I know that 204 00:12:53,700 --> 00:12:57,060 people are like screw these guys. You guys hate advertising. 205 00:12:57,060 --> 00:13:00,690 You know? That's not true. We just shot in Froyo 206 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,320 Dave Jones: is enjoyable then. 207 00:13:05,490 --> 00:13:07,980 Adam Curry: And then it goes on to love people. No, of course, 208 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:11,940 that's 10% of our revenue and you can't go back and get it 209 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,300 it's like an airplane that takes off with half the seats sold. 210 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:18,480 Once it's gone it's gone. That's an odd comment. 211 00:13:18,630 --> 00:13:20,070 Dave Jones: That's a weird metaphor. What 212 00:13:20,070 --> 00:13:22,830 Adam Curry: does that even mean? Well, if it's a Boeing you know 213 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,060 Unknown: just wait for the door to pop then more people will 214 00:13:27,060 --> 00:13:30,030 jump in. And it's coming back to the ground just wait on it but 215 00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:31,320 pardon but part of what really 216 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:36,120 Adam Curry: got me is was just showed me how tone deaf these 217 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,110 people are. Because you know, they there was a lot of dei 218 00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:44,400 involved in, in in changing around stuff. And all we really 219 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:51,480 have to, we really have to diversify our content. Right. So 220 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,110 it came as a disappointment to some people on MPRs board last 221 00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:58,410 fall when they were presented with new internal data, showing 222 00:13:58,410 --> 00:14:01,080 their efforts had not moved the needle much with the black and 223 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,820 Hispanic podcast listeners, black listeners and wait until 224 00:14:05,820 --> 00:14:09,240 you hear what they did. Black listeners made up roughly 11% of 225 00:14:09,270 --> 00:14:13,320 an accolade on say African Americans so incorrect. Black 226 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,530 listeners made up roughly 11% of MPRs audience in the second 227 00:14:16,530 --> 00:14:20,790 quarter of 2023, unchanged from the same period in 2020. So 228 00:14:20,790 --> 00:14:23,580 three years no change. According to the data. According to the 229 00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:25,920 data. The data further showed that the share of Hispanic 230 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,490 listeners went up only two percentage points in 2020 to 231 00:14:29,490 --> 00:14:34,050 account for 16% of the total audience. 120 20 survey from Pew 232 00:14:34,050 --> 00:14:38,310 Research found that of the people who named NPR as their 233 00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:43,290 main source for political and election news 75% were white 234 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,070 more than any other outlet except Fox News, Fox News. 235 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,690 You're number two on the on the white supremacist list. Yes, but 236 00:14:51,690 --> 00:14:54,000 then But then here's what they did. And this is what's just 237 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,380 insulting. I mean, these people I think are actually racist. 238 00:14:58,380 --> 00:15:02,280 They don't even know it and NPR is efforts to diversify itself 239 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,730 and its audience didn't always live up to the expectations of 240 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:08,610 the people who work there. During a round of layoffs last 241 00:15:08,610 --> 00:15:12,930 year, NPR cut louder than a riot, a hip hop podcast that 242 00:15:12,930 --> 00:15:18,540 examines black and queer issues. So here's the meeting Dave. With 243 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:20,940 a bunch of white dudes sitting around we need to up our black 244 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:23,610 listenership. Yeah, let's do some Hip Hop throwing some 245 00:15:23,610 --> 00:15:28,860 queers. It'll work. No problem. Yeah, the black Americans don't 246 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:31,530 even want to be seen as black Americans. They just Americans. 247 00:15:31,650 --> 00:15:34,500 They want news like everybody else. But no, you're gonna 248 00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:38,670 pander with a hip hop podcast. It's sad. It's really sad. 249 00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:42,600 Dave Jones: That the agree with John Spurlock the comments on 250 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,350 that article were 251 00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:46,740 Unknown: what was I haven't actually looked at the comments 252 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:48,210 I had. I'm 253 00:15:48,210 --> 00:15:51,030 Dave Jones: like him. I never read comments on anything. But 254 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,330 but the comments on that article were very good. And they like to 255 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,090 just read through the, the, the, the leadership of NPR should 256 00:16:00,090 --> 00:16:02,820 read those comments because their people are telling them 257 00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:04,500 exactly what's up. I mean, 258 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,890 Adam Curry: okay, what do you know? What do you remember any 259 00:16:07,890 --> 00:16:09,840 of the comments? I can't actually see it because it's 260 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,490 paywall now suddenly, for me, 261 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,260 Dave Jones: somebody called it a grievance based network. Wow. 262 00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:20,520 And I think that's really what if that's probably the best 263 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:26,700 summation of the comments was that they people just don't like 264 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:31,890 listening to the to a grievance based network. Everything is 265 00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:38,100 just negative, and victimization and grievance based. Yeah. And 266 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,700 it's just, it just got he just got tired of it. People got just 267 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:43,350 get tired of that thing. You 268 00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:45,330 Adam Curry: know, where are you going seeing with with no agenda 269 00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:48,690 that we're backing off a little bit on the amount of mainstream 270 00:16:48,690 --> 00:16:52,230 media clips we play? Because it's exactly that, and people 271 00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:54,990 get to hurt. But I don't want to hear you guys. Tell me what's 272 00:16:54,990 --> 00:16:57,210 going on. I don't want to hear the clips this time makes me 273 00:16:57,210 --> 00:16:57,870 tired. 274 00:16:58,050 --> 00:17:01,320 Dave Jones: I get it digging. Yes, fatiguing that. I didn't 275 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,660 realize, but just a side comment. I didn't realize that 276 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:09,450 NPR staff was sag AFTRA. Oh, that have to be? Yeah, I didn't 277 00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:12,210 realize that, that the actors? Well, 278 00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:15,300 Adam Curry: well, you know, it was after and sagen after merge. 279 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:19,020 So they were, I've been, I've always been after, and I've 280 00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:22,440 always been sad or sag eligible, because we're actually both 281 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,390 eligible because they're gonna pay dues anymore because I 282 00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:28,110 didn't have any union gigs. But then they emerged and so 283 00:17:28,110 --> 00:17:30,030 technically would just be one payment. 284 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:33,660 Dave Jones: After after, it was the sort of media side of the 285 00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:36,870 Adam Curry: American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. 286 00:17:37,050 --> 00:17:37,350 Okay. 287 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:38,190 Dave Jones: Okay. All right. 288 00:17:38,220 --> 00:17:40,560 Adam Curry: That was broadcast broadcast, basically. 289 00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:45,270 Dave Jones: Okay, that, that, I guess, you know, my thing is, 290 00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:49,050 Catherine Maher got a bunch of Ms. She's taking the heat. 291 00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:55,830 Adam Curry: Yeah, this is the new, the new CEO of NPR, who? I 292 00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:59,970 mean, we've looked at her from an intelligence angle. She has 293 00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:03,990 quite an interesting background. Sure, but and you know, and 294 00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:06,630 certainly she came from signal the signal foundation before 295 00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:09,990 that Wikimedia, which I think everyone knows is is, you know, 296 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:14,400 very managed, very managed, then not by people 297 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,860 Dave Jones: at the International Monetary Fund. 298 00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:21,090 Adam Curry: Every word Yeah. World Economic Forum. And 299 00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:24,360 that's, yeah, that's just a drinking club. But still, you 300 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:27,990 know, she's clearly a globalist. But then a lot of these tweets 301 00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:30,720 of hers resurface. And it seems like it's just more of the 302 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,420 grievance stuff that the listeners, or at least the 303 00:18:33,420 --> 00:18:36,450 readers of The New York Times don't want to hear on their NPR 304 00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:37,230 stations. 305 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:42,300 Dave Jones: What I know people are no people like this, like 306 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,320 Adam Curry: Katherine or commenters know, 307 00:18:46,350 --> 00:18:50,910 Dave Jones: like, Katherine. I know people who look at the 308 00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:54,930 world like this and talk like this, like, so. I did. I did 309 00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:58,260 what what all good researchers should do I use the podcast 310 00:18:58,260 --> 00:19:02,610 index API people search in search for Katherine. Oh, 311 00:19:02,610 --> 00:19:02,970 Adam Curry: right 312 00:19:02,970 --> 00:19:06,420 Dave Jones: on Excellent. Yeah. To find all of the all of the 313 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:10,200 podcast episodes that she's been interviewed in live listening. I 314 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:16,890 like it. Excellent. And I'm telling you, it was awful. She, 315 00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:20,190 when I say I know people like this. Not trying to be nosy. 316 00:19:20,580 --> 00:19:22,890 Adam Curry: Are there people like this in Alabama? I mean, 317 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,000 oh, yeah. No, for sure. 318 00:19:25,170 --> 00:19:26,910 Dave Jones: You mean people that think they're smarter than you? 319 00:19:26,910 --> 00:19:27,600 Yeah. 320 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,730 Unknown: That's what we're talking about. Yeah. The 321 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,970 Dave Jones: people like this are insufferable. They just will not 322 00:19:32,970 --> 00:19:38,520 stop talking about in arcane terms about just the, the most 323 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,110 miniscule that like the it's just all minutia all the time. 324 00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:48,540 And it's it's clouds of connected terminology that 325 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:52,080 you're trying to, like. It's like a fog. You're trying to get 326 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,620 through you listen to 20 minutes of it, and you're like, I don't 327 00:19:55,620 --> 00:19:58,050 even know what she just said. You 328 00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:00,510 Adam Curry: are You gotta you gotta send us Send me some 329 00:20:00,510 --> 00:20:04,500 links. This sounds like no agenda material. Oh, 330 00:20:04,530 --> 00:20:06,210 Dave Jones: man, I brought a bra. These clips are 331 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:09,930 unnecessarily long just so that you can understand what she's 332 00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:15,810 like. Okay. The, so she speaks like Chad GPT so let's just call 333 00:20:15,810 --> 00:20:17,520 her cat GPT. Okay. 334 00:20:18,810 --> 00:20:21,480 Unknown: very flowery flowery? Yes. Yes. 335 00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:26,250 Dave Jones: Catherine is Cat GPT. So when it's like if so, if 336 00:20:26,250 --> 00:20:32,880 you went into a laboratory and said, like, it's 2024 Build me 337 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,700 the perfect NPR CEO. Yeah, they would build you this lady. She 338 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:43,320 talks about governance, constantly institutional 339 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,150 governance. They're not looking for truth. They're looking for 340 00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:52,680 consensus on what is not disinformation. Like, there is 341 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,040 so it's just mind bogglingly boring. 342 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,320 Adam Curry: I'm getting the electricity ready to create her 343 00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:58,890 in a lab. 344 00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:06,750 Dave Jones: So clip one is she starts Where's where's this 345 00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:07,230 from? What 346 00:21:07,230 --> 00:21:10,830 Unknown: podcast? Is this from? This is from the podcast? 347 00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:14,820 Dave Jones: Possible. Think that's the day we'll need to 348 00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:21,900 make sure that. Okay, it's from possible. Possible? Yes, this is 349 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:23,100 Reid Hoffman's podcast. 350 00:21:23,130 --> 00:21:26,250 Adam Curry: Oh, another fine specimen. He's a big donor. I 351 00:21:26,250 --> 00:21:29,070 think he's a big NPR don't you should be a big NPR donor. 352 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:36,150 Dave Jones: I feel light. So this this. This was from January 353 00:21:36,150 --> 00:21:42,120 24 of this year. I feel like I feel like this was sort of a 354 00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:48,390 tryout for the NPR CEO gig. Some of the questions were seemed 355 00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:50,130 oriented in that direction. Oh, 356 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:51,900 Adam Curry: that would make sense. You have to go through 357 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:54,750 even Okay, you got to do reads. Isn't the on the board is a 358 00:21:54,750 --> 00:21:58,020 board I've been feeling that he's a This isn't Reed Hoffman 359 00:21:58,020 --> 00:22:03,120 at Reed. Hoffman and PR. So he's the Salesforce guy. Right. 360 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:07,710 LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I'm sorry. Yeah, let me see. Yeah, I have a 361 00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:10,590 feeling he's the only appearance board. He would be the kind of 362 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:13,440 guy that you would have to go by, you know, it's like, Oh, you 363 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,830 gotta go talk with Reed before we can get you in, you know, 364 00:22:16,830 --> 00:22:18,930 big. If you get reads endorsement, then you're good to 365 00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:19,440 go. 366 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,070 Dave Jones: Yeah, I can't tell from here. But it would not. 367 00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:28,590 Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But this sounds like I 368 00:22:28,590 --> 00:22:33,420 think this is this was prior to her being at NPR, of just prior. 369 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,060 And this just feels such like a like a job interview or at least 370 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:44,910 just a sort of a face TAs and FaceTime with somebody that was 371 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:47,820 already probably had taken the job because in a couple, a 372 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:50,220 couple points in the interview, she started, she starts 373 00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:56,220 referencing to she's using the term wiki, Wikimedia in like 374 00:22:56,220 --> 00:23:00,870 past tense, right, and that kind of thing. So but she's in this 375 00:23:00,870 --> 00:23:06,210 clip when she's talking about institutional. There's two clips 376 00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:10,950 are institutional trust. As hard to see it's, it's almost 377 00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:14,820 unclimbable, but it was like, it's like institutional trust. 378 00:23:15,630 --> 00:23:23,280 And how did it it comes from the black breakdown institutional 379 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,230 trust comes from diversification. 380 00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:29,040 Unknown: I think the internet has been catastrophic for trust, 381 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,880 but perhaps not for all of the reasons we might think, when I 382 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,470 say catastrophic, I think that what has happened is not that 383 00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:41,640 the internet has destroyed trust it is the internet has surfaced 384 00:23:42,150 --> 00:23:48,450 fissures within systems and, and allowed them to grow and grow 385 00:23:48,450 --> 00:23:53,340 publicly at an exponential rate. And so when, for example, we 386 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:56,070 think about trust in institutions, which is something 387 00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:58,830 that I'm very interested in, and that comes to sort of 388 00:23:58,830 --> 00:24:01,920 institutional governance, institutions fit for purpose. 389 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,170 And I mean, institutions in the abstract and in the literal 390 00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:06,930 sense. So the institution of universal suffrage is an 391 00:24:06,930 --> 00:24:10,650 institution, although doesn't have like a brand name. The 392 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,720 issues that we've seen there is that many of these institutions 393 00:24:16,110 --> 00:24:22,050 were built around a sort of homogenous population that they 394 00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:26,400 were serving. They were not terribly responsive, both in 395 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,600 terms of accountability to that population. And then when we 396 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,770 started to see increasingly heterogeneous populations, due 397 00:24:34,770 --> 00:24:38,460 to immigration, diversification, civil rights, movement, etc, 398 00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:44,550 etc. We started to see how those those institutions were were not 399 00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:48,030 actually sort of fit for purpose. What the Internet has 400 00:24:48,030 --> 00:24:52,590 done is it has exposed those fissures in ways that are 401 00:24:52,590 --> 00:24:56,490 related to both. We now interface with all sorts of 402 00:24:56,490 --> 00:24:59,190 technologies, platforms and services that are hyper 403 00:24:59,190 --> 00:25:04,170 responsive to Do our needs in and have created an anticipation 404 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:10,230 of a much more frictionless, much more productive set of 405 00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:15,690 processes services, outcomes SLA functional human SLAs human 406 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,230 Adam Curry: SLA s really? Hey, yeah, I thought you would like 407 00:25:19,230 --> 00:25:23,610 humanist human SLAs service level agreements seriously? 408 00:25:25,170 --> 00:25:29,460 Dave Jones: So imagine, imagine 45 minutes of that. I mean, 409 00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:32,940 Adam Curry: I mean, what did you? What do you think she 410 00:25:32,940 --> 00:25:33,960 actually said? 411 00:25:34,350 --> 00:25:36,240 Dave Jones: I know exactly what she said, Because I listened to 412 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,070 it and no lie like eight times. I think I know exactly what she 413 00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:47,940 said. What she's saying here, is that, that NPR, okay, so is she 414 00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:50,160 talking about institutions? Is 415 00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:54,150 Unknown: NPR, NPR? Yeah, yeah, that it qualifies 416 00:25:54,150 --> 00:25:57,720 Dave Jones: under that under her definition. So she's saying that 417 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:04,440 NPR was built to serve a specific group of people, that 418 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:10,140 that group of people being upper class white people. And that's 419 00:26:10,140 --> 00:26:14,010 the true problem with it as an institution that that's how it's 420 00:26:14,010 --> 00:26:18,870 broken. Okay, that's the truth that that was that it didn't 421 00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:20,400 just break. I 422 00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:23,460 Adam Curry: honestly, I would still say just upper class. I 423 00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:27,210 don't know if NPR was specifically servicing white 424 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:29,730 people. I mean, you know, Cory Booker percent of 425 00:26:29,730 --> 00:26:32,160 Dave Jones: their audience is white is according to the stats. 426 00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:36,150 So that's what this is. But this is her, you know, this is this 427 00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:41,160 is her frame of reference here. Yes, I got it. She's saying the 428 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,510 internet, like social media, YouTube, podcasting, et cetera, 429 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,330 just exposed that already existing problem. So to her the 430 00:26:51,330 --> 00:26:57,480 core issue and NPR is that it was only serving a core audience 431 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,490 of rich white people in the internet, just exposed What was 432 00:27:02,490 --> 00:27:07,740 our that existing problem? And I mean, this, if you look at John, 433 00:27:07,740 --> 00:27:10,200 like John Lansing there previously, yeah, this is very 434 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,620 much on point with what he was trying to do with a company when 435 00:27:13,620 --> 00:27:17,730 he was there. He was trying to he was trying, he was very much 436 00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:21,420 on the same mindset. Evidently, he was trying to change that. 437 00:27:22,050 --> 00:27:25,800 But the problem is, if you change MPRs target audience, 438 00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:30,630 what you have is no longer in PR. Well, you don't have 439 00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:31,920 something different. 440 00:27:32,550 --> 00:27:36,150 Adam Curry: What this says to me, what this says to me is this 441 00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:42,600 is proof. You can't monetize the network. When because people who 442 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,860 want who like even like NPR programming, because that's what 443 00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:51,360 your podcast app does for you. I put it together. I got my own 444 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:55,590 podcast network of shows that I like, that's what changed? 445 00:27:57,210 --> 00:27:59,970 Dave Jones: Well, I think what they did well, I think, yes, and 446 00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:03,810 I think, but I think they looked at their they looked at their 447 00:28:03,810 --> 00:28:07,500 audience and said, it's, it's a bunch of rich white people. Oh, 448 00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:10,500 that's how they looked at it. For sure. Yeah, yes. And then 449 00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:15,330 they said, so what we need to do is change ourself, and we'll 450 00:28:15,330 --> 00:28:22,140 change the audience. But the problem is when you change yet, 451 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,830 is when you do that you don't you no longer what you have, 452 00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:30,660 what you've created now is no longer NPR. You have something 453 00:28:30,660 --> 00:28:33,270 different that's, and that's very much in line with what the 454 00:28:33,270 --> 00:28:36,450 commenters on the New York Times article, were saying they, they 455 00:28:36,450 --> 00:28:39,420 were saying that over and over, they're saying I feel alienated. 456 00:28:39,930 --> 00:28:42,780 What is this thing that I'm listening to it didn't used to 457 00:28:42,810 --> 00:28:46,530 they, these stories are like, they're talking different than 458 00:28:46,530 --> 00:28:49,230 they did 20 years ago. It's boring. Now. It's Bah, blah, 459 00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:56,760 blah. And so like changing your audience is fine. If if what you 460 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,430 want at the end of the day is a completely different audience. 461 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,640 That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily. But 462 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,000 you have to stop and ask if that audience if that different 463 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,170 audience wants you. Yes, yes. Well, also they might and they 464 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:13,710 might not. I mean, you, you know that you already like, you know, 465 00:29:13,710 --> 00:29:17,340 you already have a committed audience. And I'm just talking 466 00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:20,640 purely about NPR here. I'm just trying to be blunt. If you're 467 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,610 NPR, you know, you have a committed audience of rich white 468 00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:27,450 people that every year get about $100 million worth of tote bags. 469 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,980 But is this new audience that you're changing to? Are they 470 00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:35,190 going to do the same thing? The answer, we see the answer, the 471 00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:39,750 answer is no. That's how you lose $30 million. Yeah, it's 472 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:40,350 because 473 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,390 Adam Curry: well, in so radio, then there's a whole bunch of 474 00:29:45,390 --> 00:29:48,450 things going on here. I mean, what I ultimately see is the 475 00:29:48,810 --> 00:29:52,950 we've seen a very, very slow collapse of broadcast across the 476 00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:57,030 board that the newspapers are done is done and but there's 477 00:29:57,030 --> 00:30:00,480 always going to be a couple that make it obviously yeah, that 478 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,690 hang on to that, you know, we still have, we still have a ham 479 00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:06,810 radio stations that that are hanging on, you know, a ham 480 00:30:06,810 --> 00:30:12,750 radio networks but but basically is gone. The In fact, the main 481 00:30:12,750 --> 00:30:17,820 market that radio stations are supposed to serve is their local 482 00:30:17,820 --> 00:30:23,100 home market that's gone, that that by itself is gone. That's 483 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:28,440 what the internet data is, oh, I can I can listen to a market of 484 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,780 interests, you know, doesn't have to be a geographical 485 00:30:30,780 --> 00:30:35,730 market. There's other offers, if you want to know what's going on 486 00:30:35,730 --> 00:30:40,110 in New York City. Besides, you know, the the morning radio 487 00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:44,820 shows, which coincidentally in general, are basically one guy 488 00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:48,150 like Elvis Duran at z 100. He has 20 stations across the 489 00:30:48,150 --> 00:30:51,780 country. So he's talking to all different kinds of markets at 490 00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:55,740 the same time, not just New York. So this, this collapse, I 491 00:30:55,740 --> 00:30:58,470 think, is accelerating. And that's what you're seeing here. 492 00:30:58,470 --> 00:31:02,370 Also the cost the overhead, that's why they put so much. 493 00:31:03,210 --> 00:31:05,400 They you know, they brought their radio values to 494 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,480 podcasting, they put up you know, $1,000 Neumann 495 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,320 microphones, it said, this will work fine. We can have, you 496 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,850 know, 15 people on radio labs or more even, it's like, no, no, 497 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,520 this certain, that's not the economics anymore. It's the same 498 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,330 thing with streaming video. And streaming video is going to have 499 00:31:24,330 --> 00:31:29,070 this exact same problem. You know, Disney is a great example. 500 00:31:29,670 --> 00:31:32,730 The Marvel Cinematic Universe, well, you know, we're catering 501 00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:36,390 to to, to kids who identify with white superheroes, we got to 502 00:31:36,390 --> 00:31:40,860 bring in some gay lesbians as black lesbians. And they're now 503 00:31:40,860 --> 00:31:44,520 the superheroes and then so you ultimately start alienating both 504 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,850 sides pandering. And what is this? Yes, 505 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,400 Dave Jones: that's what I think happened to NPR here. They 506 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,620 decided they wanted to diversify, diversify their 507 00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:57,060 audience. And in doing so what they ended up with is having no 508 00:31:57,060 --> 00:32:00,990 increase in black and Hispanic listeners and a decrease in 509 00:32:00,990 --> 00:32:05,490 white listeners. Yeah. So they basically went in, in reverse 510 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,180 they the new the new audience they wanted. And again, there's 511 00:32:09,180 --> 00:32:12,270 nothing wrong with the what they wanted. The new but that new 512 00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:15,690 audience they were wanting never materialized. No. It never 513 00:32:15,690 --> 00:32:18,210 Adam Curry: got it wasn't there. The audience was never there for 514 00:32:18,210 --> 00:32:20,190 what they were making. Yeah, it turns 515 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:21,840 Dave Jones: out black and Hispanic people just don't care 516 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,060 about NPR. That's fine. Yeah. Like you can't make them care. 517 00:32:27,090 --> 00:32:31,680 No. And, you know, they, they, those populations, by and large, 518 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,140 evidently have, you know, media they already listened to, and it 519 00:32:34,140 --> 00:32:38,310 suits them just fine. Yeah. So so they, so NPR, just basically 520 00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:44,010 just foot gun to itself. And they didn't start by by laying 521 00:32:44,010 --> 00:32:47,520 off and chopping a bunch of radio people killed the 522 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:48,450 podcasters, 523 00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:51,750 Adam Curry: they shot the horse that actually had a chance. 524 00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:55,080 Dave Jones: Your old audience feels alienated and now you're 525 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,260 new, the new audience never showed up. And so that's like a 526 00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:04,290 recipe for bad times. Click clip two is like, I think clip two is 527 00:33:04,290 --> 00:33:07,590 how a glimpse of you know if you think that she's going to fix 528 00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:10,560 things at NPR, the clip two, it'll give you a glimpse of of 529 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:11,220 that future. 530 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:16,320 Unknown: We've also seen that we now have the ability to record 531 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,550 in real time with with examples of where those gaps actually 532 00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:26,730 are, which make the the the failures of those institutions 533 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,930 even more evident to a greater number of people. That to me is 534 00:33:30,930 --> 00:33:34,710 sort of the primary issue relative to trust in this day. 535 00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:39,090 And age is not really around, oh, my goodness, my algorithm is 536 00:33:39,090 --> 00:33:42,240 serving me information that I can't trust. It is actually 537 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,810 around a set of expectations about how institutions should 538 00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:49,560 function in our lives, and are and where those institutions are 539 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,040 falling down is responsive institutions that are consistent 540 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,250 and accountable in their purpose and effective in their service 541 00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:59,400 delivery. Absolutely. Then there are questions of like, well, why 542 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,060 is the media not trusted? And, you know, what does? What does 543 00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:06,000 sort of social media have to do with all of that? And I think 544 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,940 that those are useful questions, as are the questions around 545 00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:12,150 what, you know, what is AI going to do to are like the 546 00:34:12,150 --> 00:34:15,120 construction of false information. But I think that 547 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,840 they are secondary questions to this primary one around what is 548 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,470 the internet shown to us about the institutions that have 549 00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:27,240 historically governed our nation's our lives and where are 550 00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:30,510 they not fit for purpose? And I think that this is actually a 551 00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:34,170 really important and essential question. If for those of us 552 00:34:34,170 --> 00:34:38,850 like myself, who believe very foundationally that institutions 553 00:34:38,910 --> 00:34:42,870 should be a responsive to all people, but that institutions 554 00:34:42,870 --> 00:34:47,670 are perhaps the most important part of stable democratic rights 555 00:34:47,670 --> 00:34:49,590 respecting representative governance. 556 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,160 Dave Jones: She's not doing it she's not going to change a 557 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,860 single thing to her. To her, she said Things like trust in media 558 00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:07,200 are secondary issues that we can talk about those later. So what 559 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:14,250 she's she was cut, she came into this gig with the idea of which 560 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,490 basically with the exact same frame of reference that they 561 00:35:17,490 --> 00:35:22,830 already had, that has been shown to be a complete failure. So 562 00:35:23,490 --> 00:35:28,950 Plan A didn't work. And Plan B is basically a bunch of question 563 00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:30,480 marks. I don't know what to do. 564 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,570 Adam Curry: Well, they're also NPR severely hampered. I mean, 565 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,880 that's the history of NPR, with the local station strategy is 566 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,150 just hampering. That's the whole problem. They have a network of 567 00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:46,950 stations. And and those stations by programming, some of the make 568 00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:50,190 programming Sella back to the network. That idea is just over 569 00:35:50,190 --> 00:35:54,720 I was talking to I don't know if I talked about this, I my buddy 570 00:35:54,750 --> 00:35:57,450 wanted to see him in Dallas for 60s, this brother came and 571 00:35:57,450 --> 00:35:59,880 actually knew his brother, but his older brother before I knew 572 00:36:00,090 --> 00:36:06,870 Vic, and Steve was the was like a junior engineer at the time, 573 00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:10,410 but he later became the senior engineer of big broadcast 574 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,010 companies. I think it was Emma's first and then it was in Clear 575 00:36:14,010 --> 00:36:18,510 Channel. And so and he knows a lot and the television stations, 576 00:36:18,510 --> 00:36:22,350 the local television stations, they're done. That, you know, a 577 00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:26,490 local ABC affiliate is done is all over. They're going to 578 00:36:26,490 --> 00:36:30,660 close. There'll be bought, and they'll they may do one program 579 00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:35,310 to try and do some local news. But the the network's they don't 580 00:36:35,310 --> 00:36:39,240 want to pay for anything anymore. It's like no, no, it's 581 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:44,130 all closing all of that the network node model of broadcast 582 00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:45,660 radio and television is gone. 583 00:36:46,590 --> 00:36:50,400 Dave Jones: Is it because it's so like our, for instance, our 584 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,750 local ABC, CBS, NBC Fox affiliates, you're saying that 585 00:36:54,780 --> 00:36:57,870 those things are in television, those things are going to just 586 00:36:57,870 --> 00:36:59,580 be gone? Yeah, 587 00:36:59,670 --> 00:37:01,740 Adam Curry: they really have no reason to be broadcasting 588 00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:04,200 anymore. I mean, yeah, they're still going to try terrestrial 589 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,640 digital broadcasting, but it's really over. The model has 590 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,110 broken because you just you sell you can insert as at a local 591 00:37:13,110 --> 00:37:15,750 level, you don't need a local sales first. You know, all of 592 00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:19,410 that stuff is gone. Gone. Gone. And it's way too expensive. 593 00:37:20,010 --> 00:37:23,340 Dave Jones: Is that a drag? financially? Yeah. mothership? 594 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:23,970 Oh, 595 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,820 Adam Curry: big time. Yeah. And the motherships they've all 596 00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:29,820 expanded into all these additional businesses. The ABC 597 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,120 now is of course owned by Disney, but they, you know, 598 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,620 they're trying to divest of ESPN and the in this, sometimes 599 00:37:37,620 --> 00:37:41,550 consolidation doesn't work out too good. If if if things you 600 00:37:41,550 --> 00:37:44,850 know, if the if if the world changes, and this is what I love 601 00:37:44,850 --> 00:37:49,050 so much about podcasting, this is what I love, the audience 602 00:37:49,050 --> 00:37:54,360 gets to determine what their, their their menu is, what they 603 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,690 like listening to how fast they like listening to it. 604 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:58,980 Unknown: I'll add that. 605 00:38:00,630 --> 00:38:02,610 Adam Curry: Unfortunately, yeah, well, that's, you know, that's 606 00:38:02,610 --> 00:38:05,940 my personal beef. But ultimately, you know, the 607 00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:09,000 technology is there, you can do whatever you want. And, and as 608 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,300 we've seen, the, the audience also determines if I want to 609 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:16,350 hear ads or not, they'll just load an ad blocker. And that's 610 00:38:16,350 --> 00:38:20,220 coming, that we basically have that in podcasting. It's called 611 00:38:20,220 --> 00:38:24,540 the Skip 32nd button. That's a form of an ad blocker. Everyone 612 00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:27,690 has it. And everyone raises their hand. Yeah, I skip the 613 00:38:27,690 --> 00:38:33,990 ads. So so something is fundamentally broken. And also 614 00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:38,670 the, because of the supply and demand, you know, the days of, 615 00:38:39,030 --> 00:38:42,690 you know, the NPR because I saw the numbers, the NPR Morning 616 00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:45,930 Edition host they each make, you know, 400 grand, if that's, 617 00:38:46,830 --> 00:38:49,890 that's your will pay, yeah, that's, that's over, you just 618 00:38:49,890 --> 00:38:52,350 gonna have to get by with less and, you know, make an 619 00:38:52,350 --> 00:38:56,790 outstanding product. And you'll be okay. And subsequently, the 620 00:38:56,790 --> 00:39:01,290 idea of I have to be number one. Because if you're not number 621 00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:05,310 one, or have the most downloads or the biggest audience, those 622 00:39:05,310 --> 00:39:08,550 days are gone, too. I mean, there's always going to be your 623 00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:10,980 top dog and something that everyone's crazy about, and 624 00:39:10,980 --> 00:39:13,290 there will always be infrastructure for that. But 625 00:39:13,290 --> 00:39:16,440 it's but the people who can actually get in there 1% will be 626 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,660 0.01%. And the most the you know, the most interesting stuff 627 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:22,980 won't even be there anymore. 628 00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:30,780 Dave Jones: I didn't realize that, that in prs. I didn't 629 00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:33,720 realize that they've only been around since 1971. Yeah, that 630 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:35,880 Adam Curry: was when the Corporation for Public 631 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,230 Broadcasting was created. 632 00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:40,620 Dave Jones: Yeah, that was surprising that they're that 633 00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:41,640 young. And 634 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,730 Adam Curry: also, they really, they really started to rely a 635 00:39:44,730 --> 00:39:50,370 lot more on underwriting. Yeah, yeah, of course, it was pure out 636 00:39:50,370 --> 00:39:54,930 pure advertising in the podcast market. And so they lost that 637 00:39:54,930 --> 00:39:58,320 value for because when you hear the NPR pitch, you know, a lot 638 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,530 of you and I listened to one NPR To show religiously on the 639 00:40:01,530 --> 00:40:06,270 media, on the media, and and I've actually sent the money for 640 00:40:06,270 --> 00:40:12,090 it because I felt so disgusting. I had to send some money. But 641 00:40:12,090 --> 00:40:15,780 now I know that it's not going to on the media is going to NPR 642 00:40:15,780 --> 00:40:19,980 and that makes me feel icky. Because I really liked that. I 643 00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:25,860 declined the tote bag. I really, you know, they, you know, if, if 644 00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:29,670 pivot if they asked me for money, I'd send the money. Stuff 645 00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:32,760 that I listened to I will support that and they kind of 646 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,900 let that go, but their pitch is now well if everyone sent $1 We 647 00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:39,810 wouldn't even having this conversation. Yeah, that's not 648 00:40:39,810 --> 00:40:45,000 gonna work. That and you're also devaluing you're devaluing your 649 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,780 product? Well, is it really just worth one buck? You know, what 650 00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:51,690 is it worth to you? Does it brighten your day when these are 651 00:40:51,690 --> 00:40:55,590 very easy pitches, but instead they went for Squarespace and 652 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,720 you know, all the other stuff with a with a code with a code 653 00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:05,970 bond, Gino? You know, they went that route and yeah, then you 654 00:41:05,970 --> 00:41:10,860 live and die by the ad market. And and if you can't see that 655 00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:14,550 CPMs are always a race to the bottom downloads race to the 656 00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:18,570 bottom, particularly when you have an ever expanding universe. 657 00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:24,900 Dave Jones: The original 1970s npr logo is pretty killer. And 658 00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:27,960 Adam Curry: now you also see even though James won't write 659 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,190 about it, but you know Megan Markel ba big announcement with 660 00:41:32,190 --> 00:41:37,050 the limonada. But there's no money. That's why she's not 661 00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:39,780 doing it. They say, Well, you know, we can probably get your 662 00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:45,690 50 grand on the ads, maybe 100 and 100 100,000. May be but 663 00:41:45,690 --> 00:41:50,520 that's advertising based. You know, she has no relationship 664 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:51,540 with the audience. 665 00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:55,470 Dave Jones: For me, it's just, it's yeah, it's just like the, 666 00:41:56,430 --> 00:42:01,260 like the Obama stuff. A Obama's same thing. Exactly. Yeah. And 667 00:42:01,260 --> 00:42:04,770 Brene Brown, honestly, there's just no, no, there's no, there's 668 00:42:04,770 --> 00:42:07,320 no, there's no organic connection. And let's be 669 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,370 Adam Curry: really honest about it. He's my friend. But Joe did 670 00:42:11,370 --> 00:42:17,190 not get $250 million. You know, every report says, could be 671 00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:22,620 worth up to. Yeah, right. You know, based upon ad sales 672 00:42:22,650 --> 00:42:28,110 performance. Yeah. And probably, I mean, I don't know if Spotify 673 00:42:28,110 --> 00:42:32,010 sells, if they cut it, because I think originally they had a deal 674 00:42:32,010 --> 00:42:35,610 with YouTube. And he let Spotify deal with YouTube and add money 675 00:42:35,610 --> 00:42:37,740 there. And so I'm not sure I don't know anything about the 676 00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:43,080 deal. But for sure, I know when you're jacking into Joe Rogan's 677 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,970 podcast every 15 minutes with an ad, just bones right in the 678 00:42:47,970 --> 00:42:51,780 middle of it. We're scraping the bottom of of what we're doing 679 00:42:51,780 --> 00:42:52,170 here. 680 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,200 Dave Jones: Yeah, you were telling me about that. I'm not a 681 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,140 listener to his show, unless there's somebody a specific 682 00:42:58,170 --> 00:43:01,470 guest. I specifically want to hear, but you're telling me 683 00:43:01,470 --> 00:43:05,370 about about the new, like the ads now. They're pumping them in 684 00:43:05,370 --> 00:43:08,430 all the time, every 15 minutes. It used to be that way used to 685 00:43:08,430 --> 00:43:10,800 just be a bunch of pre rolls, and then there was no ads during 686 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,870 the show. Yeah, no, 687 00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:15,180 Adam Curry: no. Well, that everyone, of course, skip those. 688 00:43:15,420 --> 00:43:17,640 But those were the early days. You know, I was like, oh, you 689 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:22,230 know, you only had 10 minutes of ads. Everybody knew 20 clicks. 690 00:43:22,350 --> 00:43:28,260 Pam there. And these are hosted ads that Joe doing the host read 691 00:43:28,260 --> 00:43:32,700 ads. And honestly, you know, he loves every product and uses 692 00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:34,320 every single product, I'm sure. 693 00:43:35,340 --> 00:43:37,680 Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, for sure. They're all in his garage, 694 00:43:37,710 --> 00:43:42,420 Adam Curry: you know. So, but and I think he also I think also 695 00:43:42,420 --> 00:43:44,610 he lost some influence to a degree. 696 00:43:46,290 --> 00:43:48,300 Dave Jones: Really, from what listen by by 697 00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:51,060 Adam Curry: not being on open podcast. I think it hurt him. 698 00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:52,200 You know, 699 00:43:52,530 --> 00:43:54,270 Dave Jones: not being on YouTube. 700 00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:57,840 Adam Curry: I mean, he he honestly he doesn't care. He 701 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,870 really doesn't care. Joe does not care. He doesn't do the 702 00:44:00,870 --> 00:44:03,330 business. I don't talk to him about he didn't talk to anybody 703 00:44:03,330 --> 00:44:06,660 about business. If I said, hey, hey, you need to be on value for 704 00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:08,910 value. He'd be like, I talked to my manager. I don't care. I 705 00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:12,270 don't care. I don't care. He did that show for years, without 706 00:44:12,270 --> 00:44:14,580 even knowing you could make money on it. He just wants to do 707 00:44:14,610 --> 00:44:17,970 he just wants to have fun. That's Joe. That's that's why 708 00:44:17,970 --> 00:44:19,920 he's successful in what he does. 709 00:44:20,910 --> 00:44:24,540 Dave Jones: Right? Because it's a focus on the content. Yeah. 710 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:25,440 Yeah. 711 00:44:26,130 --> 00:44:29,160 Adam Curry: Yes, other people to deal with that. And he's one of 712 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:36,450 those people that can still be top dog in, in what he's doing, 713 00:44:37,110 --> 00:44:41,280 and then that infrastructure will support him. But I doubt 714 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,130 that that's the kind of money that's being made. I really, 715 00:44:44,130 --> 00:44:47,940 really doubt that. Now, so you're telling me that he has 716 00:44:48,570 --> 00:44:51,870 that he has a quarter of all podcast advertising revenue? 717 00:44:53,370 --> 00:44:57,750 Dave Jones: No, no, I can't see this. See that? That's the case. 718 00:44:58,020 --> 00:44:59,070 But who knows? Maybe 719 00:44:59,340 --> 00:45:03,570 Adam Curry: but but All those deals and Spotify gave up, they 720 00:45:03,570 --> 00:45:07,710 just gave up. They saw it wasn't working, they save face and they 721 00:45:07,710 --> 00:45:13,290 gave up. And here we are. Here we are right back where we 722 00:45:13,290 --> 00:45:13,950 started. 723 00:45:15,059 --> 00:45:19,259 Dave Jones: The edit audio books fired a bunch of people in now 724 00:45:19,469 --> 00:45:21,659 been raise prices. And now here we are. 725 00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:24,000 Adam Curry: And Joe is as a much higher output right now he's 726 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,970 doing a show almost every single day. I know why. Because he 727 00:45:26,970 --> 00:45:30,720 knows that he has real competition. And and I think he 728 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:34,230 enjoys I think he enjoys the competitive nature of getting, 729 00:45:34,260 --> 00:45:38,040 you know, these interesting guests first, you know, having 730 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,120 them on and then, you know, there's there's a huge benefit 731 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,620 to in this case, I think that's the only place where video makes 732 00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:50,160 sense to me. Is is highly clippable people will watch 733 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,840 three minutes of video on x. And then and then say yeah, no, I 734 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:55,770 heard that episode. 735 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,370 Dave Jones: Every PP said he's back on YouTube is that? Yeah, 736 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,850 that didn't realize that. Yeah. I thought he had an exclusive 737 00:46:02,850 --> 00:46:04,440 video deal with with Spotify. 738 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,220 Unknown: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, yeah, 739 00:46:08,220 --> 00:46:10,170 Dave Jones: that makes that Spotify deal look just pretty 740 00:46:10,170 --> 00:46:10,590 much 741 00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:14,190 Unknown: kind of weak. We don't even know what the deal is. 742 00:46:14,580 --> 00:46:15,000 Yeah, 743 00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:17,430 Dave Jones: I mean, like, it may, I guess what I mean by that 744 00:46:17,430 --> 00:46:22,020 is it makes it makes me question. The reported details 745 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:26,340 of that deal even more. But ultimately, I'm just happy 746 00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:29,190 Adam Curry: to Joe's on my podcast that are that I can 747 00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:32,760 watch if I want to watch minute, which I don't. But I'm happy. 748 00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:36,810 The only thing for YouTube, the only reason that I will look at 749 00:46:36,810 --> 00:46:40,560 that is to look at the million comments. Like the comments are 750 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,530 always interesting, because a lot of people comment on his 751 00:46:43,530 --> 00:46:47,100 episodes. That's why I'll sometimes go take a look at the 752 00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:50,880 episode on YouTube or just switch over for a minute. But 753 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,550 usually, I'm just listening to it. But that's really what I 754 00:46:53,550 --> 00:46:56,100 love about Joe, I don't I don't care if he makes a billion 755 00:46:56,100 --> 00:47:00,210 dollars or $0. And I don't think he cares either. It's easy for 756 00:47:00,210 --> 00:47:03,930 him to say but for myself, it's the same way. I would you know, 757 00:47:03,930 --> 00:47:07,860 we do this podcast for no money. We do a lot of things. Just 758 00:47:07,860 --> 00:47:10,410 because we love it. Surprise. 759 00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:15,120 Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, as long as long as we pay for the 760 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,750 results we pay for the index and break is honestly breakeven on 761 00:47:18,750 --> 00:47:22,140 the index this I mean, the the show this show is our is always 762 00:47:22,140 --> 00:47:25,470 just been, like, weekly. Let's 763 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,290 Unknown: just affidavit 764 00:47:29,940 --> 00:47:34,110 Adam Curry: is catching up. Exactly. So on that note, let's 765 00:47:34,110 --> 00:47:38,130 move over to activity pub, because there's been a lot of 766 00:47:38,130 --> 00:47:42,270 posting a lot of stuff going on. And the one thing that did catch 767 00:47:42,270 --> 00:47:49,590 my eye in general is Dave Weiner not being happy about the move 768 00:47:49,590 --> 00:47:55,260 towards activity pub in general for Federation. Okay, and when I 769 00:47:55,260 --> 00:47:59,310 think Federation isn't is the correct word because that's we 770 00:47:59,310 --> 00:48:03,510 are, in essence looking to federate the podcast apps. Is 771 00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:05,160 that a fair? A fair way to put it? 772 00:48:08,130 --> 00:48:11,520 Dave Jones: federate, I guess, federate, in terms of the Fetty 773 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,190 verse or whatever? federate, 774 00:48:14,220 --> 00:48:17,460 Adam Curry: comments, federate, ratings, federate reviews, 775 00:48:17,460 --> 00:48:21,240 federated follows federate, likes federate? Yeah, so 776 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:25,710 everybody has, there's a federation of, well, exactly 777 00:48:25,710 --> 00:48:29,280 what it's called Social interactivity around podcasts 778 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,510 and their episodes. 779 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,080 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. 780 00:48:34,110 --> 00:48:35,190 Adam Curry: So does it work yet? 781 00:48:37,740 --> 00:48:40,170 Dave Jones: Only me what a day. I'm trying to I'm trying to work 782 00:48:40,170 --> 00:48:43,980 up to care. What day was that? What did he What did he say? 783 00:48:44,340 --> 00:48:47,790 Adam Curry: He said, Hold on a second. I should have had that 784 00:48:47,790 --> 00:48:48,060 mean if 785 00:48:48,060 --> 00:48:50,130 Dave Jones: there's a if he's got a legitimate beef. Well, 786 00:48:50,130 --> 00:48:52,230 then I mean, I'm willing to listen, I think 787 00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:57,240 Adam Curry: it's, you know, it's like it's not it's not not 788 00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:00,630 invented here, but it's Hold on a second. His site is loading 789 00:49:00,630 --> 00:49:06,660 very slow for some reason. Here it is, when did he post this 790 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,560 thing he posted on Monday, the the idea of us all working 791 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,190 together to federate, is the right idea. But making activity 792 00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:20,730 pub, the hurdle everyone has to jump over is in my humble 793 00:49:20,730 --> 00:49:26,070 opinion, the wrong idea. I'm building on feeds RSS atom RDF. 794 00:49:26,310 --> 00:49:29,100 A lot of good stuff works on that basis, and it's a much 795 00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:32,340 shorter path to interrupt then activity pub. 796 00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:41,850 So I, and I think he's looking more not looking at podcasting, 797 00:49:41,850 --> 00:49:48,300 obviously, but he's looking more at how bridges that bridge, you 798 00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:53,130 know, feed a into CES. I mean, I see activity pub, kind of as an 799 00:49:53,130 --> 00:49:58,770 aggregator. You know, it's like I can I can follow or subscribe 800 00:49:58,770 --> 00:50:03,720 to certain feeds at aggregates them and then I can do something 801 00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:07,590 with that which in turn I can turn around and other people can 802 00:50:07,590 --> 00:50:09,090 aggregate what I did with it 803 00:50:11,460 --> 00:50:15,480 Dave Jones: this is this This comment is too vague to, to 804 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:22,620 really even know what what to respond to. I mean this because 805 00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:30,870 I mean our RSS is for good, okay, we made RSS work as a so 806 00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:37,590 as a as a Pub Sub mechanism. With Freedom controller, I 807 00:50:37,590 --> 00:50:44,280 could, I could post something on my microblog. And it would show 808 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:50,340 up on your on your newsfeed, you could hit reply, which would 809 00:50:50,340 --> 00:50:57,630 reply in your RSS feed, referencing that item in my 810 00:50:57,630 --> 00:51:04,770 feed. And then my since I follow you, my news feed would pick up 811 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:10,410 your reply out of your RSS feed as a threaded reply to the thing 812 00:51:10,410 --> 00:51:11,820 that I originally that was actually 813 00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:14,040 Adam Curry: a very cool thing you built there. That was that 814 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:15,240 was pretty amazing. 815 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,110 Dave Jones: Yeah. And we call that like a pull pull only 816 00:51:19,110 --> 00:51:21,840 social network. There was no, there was no push involved. 817 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,240 Adam Curry: Right? The problem was everybody needed something 818 00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:25,290 hosted somewhere. 819 00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:28,260 Dave Jones: Right? Which, which is still the problem with 820 00:51:28,260 --> 00:51:29,040 activity pub, 821 00:51:29,070 --> 00:51:30,990 Adam Curry: yes. But the infrastructure has been built 822 00:51:30,990 --> 00:51:33,420 and people are using it. That's the difference. Like there's 823 00:51:33,450 --> 00:51:37,680 eight people with a freedom controller. And there's millions 824 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:42,090 of people who have an account on an activity pub instance, with 825 00:51:42,090 --> 00:51:47,280 some front end be it Pleroma, Mastodon, etc. Well, 826 00:51:47,310 --> 00:51:50,820 Dave Jones: I mean, he's, he's right, in the sense that, I 827 00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:54,510 don't know what he's, he gets off into the he's using the term 828 00:51:54,510 --> 00:51:57,270 interop. And I'm not sure what he means. But I mean, he's right 829 00:51:57,270 --> 00:52:00,510 in the sense of simplicity when it comes to feeds when it's just 830 00:52:01,110 --> 00:52:06,180 Okay, so an RSS, a podcast app is just polling or at polling 831 00:52:06,180 --> 00:52:09,720 RSS feeds to look for new content, that's about as simple 832 00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:12,270 as you're gonna get theirs. And that's no different than typing 833 00:52:12,270 --> 00:52:15,900 in a website address and letting the page load here, right? 834 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,490 There's no, that's, that is more simple than activity pub, 835 00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:24,600 because you don't have activity pub now. Now you've introduced 836 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:29,250 now, not only do you have what you could call a feed, which 837 00:52:29,250 --> 00:52:36,570 might be the outbox, but you now have a sort of Verbling like a 838 00:52:36,570 --> 00:52:42,930 verb layer on top where you're having to push action. Yes, 839 00:52:42,930 --> 00:52:45,390 Adam Curry: the verb layer is the right description. 840 00:52:46,470 --> 00:52:48,090 Dave Jones: And so you know, you're having to push actions 841 00:52:48,090 --> 00:52:53,280 back and forth to servers that are listening to each other. So 842 00:52:53,310 --> 00:52:58,770 this is the difference between you know, something like just 843 00:52:58,770 --> 00:53:05,400 polling an RSS feed versus web sub, or, you know, or pod 844 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,010 paying, where you're just basically listening for, for 845 00:53:08,010 --> 00:53:08,910 events. 846 00:53:11,220 --> 00:53:16,260 Adam Curry: It was interesting, it is a mind bender, in a way, 847 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:21,210 because I was listening to Sam and James talk on last week's 848 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:27,150 podcast, weekly pod news weekly review. And it was so obvious 849 00:53:27,150 --> 00:53:31,590 that James was not quite grokking, the idea of how 850 00:53:31,590 --> 00:53:36,450 activity pub fits into this federation of apps. And he was 851 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,450 he's he can only at that moment, I haven't listened to the whole 852 00:53:39,450 --> 00:53:42,870 show this week. At that moment, I could tell like, Oh, you're 853 00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:46,710 almost there. But you still thinking in terms of commenting 854 00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:50,790 on a post and stuff like that. Whereas you've got to remove 855 00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:54,630 that whole layer from your vision. And, you know, when we 856 00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:59,670 talk about activity streams, that's nothing more than a user 857 00:53:59,670 --> 00:54:04,350 RSS feed. Okay, it's JSON, it's serialized, whatever you want to 858 00:54:04,350 --> 00:54:09,660 call it, but it's still, that's a, that's an RSS feed. Let's 859 00:54:09,660 --> 00:54:13,080 just call it that for the moment that I am creating as a user. 860 00:54:13,110 --> 00:54:19,200 And my content is actions. My Content is things I'm doing. And 861 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,040 it relates directly to a previous post, which is an 862 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:29,940 episode or a show itself. And that is, in effect, aggregated 863 00:54:29,970 --> 00:54:34,410 and redistributed or made for following and redistribution by 864 00:54:34,410 --> 00:54:38,220 activity pub. Right. So it's kind of like you have an you 865 00:54:38,220 --> 00:54:43,560 have a feed aggregator that can turn around and and syndicate 866 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,190 that out to everybody who's interested. Yeah. 867 00:54:48,780 --> 00:54:52,440 Dave Jones: Yeah, if I if I have an RSS feed, all I need is I 868 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:58,320 need just one file. If I have an activity pub relationship to the 869 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:04,020 world, I need Need a server? Yeah. Yes. And that can Can I 870 00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:09,150 need a server that can that can speak and listen both. And so 871 00:55:10,170 --> 00:55:13,830 you know that what we're trying to, you know, what we're, what 872 00:55:13,830 --> 00:55:16,500 we're looking towards is for with with activity pub in the 873 00:55:16,500 --> 00:55:18,840 future is not at all easy. 874 00:55:18,930 --> 00:55:21,150 Unknown: No, no, no, no, it's not. No, 875 00:55:21,150 --> 00:55:24,870 Dave Jones: it's in Dave's Dave's right on that point. It's 876 00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:25,770 not at all it's 877 00:55:25,770 --> 00:55:28,410 Adam Curry: a hurdle. It's definitely a hurdle. Definitely. 878 00:55:28,410 --> 00:55:29,490 But, but we 879 00:55:29,490 --> 00:55:33,420 Dave Jones: went from zero to pushing Bitcoin around in real 880 00:55:33,420 --> 00:55:37,350 time. Yeah. So that we can do hard stuff. You know, that's, 881 00:55:37,380 --> 00:55:40,320 that's not it's, it's not I'm not scared of that. I'm not 882 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:45,480 scared of doing hard things. And, you know, another issue 883 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,330 with with RSS, I don't mean issue in the tournament, in 884 00:55:48,330 --> 00:55:56,820 terms of it being bad. I mean, like, another one of another one 885 00:55:56,820 --> 00:56:02,040 of the considerations here with with with RSS, from a historical 886 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:08,040 point of view is that servers used to be very expensive. Yeah, 887 00:56:08,100 --> 00:56:13,680 it really was like to run a server really was a, a financial 888 00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:20,520 burden. So being able to in bandwidth was a financial, big 889 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:27,780 financial burden. So I mean, if you think about that, I mean, 890 00:56:27,780 --> 00:56:32,010 RSS made sense for that time period is still does I mean, I'm 891 00:56:32,010 --> 00:56:36,090 not, I'm not slamming it, it still does RSS made, made more 892 00:56:36,090 --> 00:56:39,600 sense than something like activity pub would have back 893 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,380 then where you're going to have to run a actual server that's 894 00:56:43,380 --> 00:56:47,670 doing a bunch of things. Now, nowadays, the dynamics around 895 00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:51,660 all of that has changed the financial burden. And they I 896 00:56:51,660 --> 00:56:55,830 mean, let's, and just the technical know how required to 897 00:56:55,830 --> 00:57:01,860 run something, as as a small server is much more accessible. 898 00:57:02,130 --> 00:57:05,790 Well, besides so I don't ever feel limited anymore. I suppose 899 00:57:05,790 --> 00:57:11,490 it took a decade or so for us to create an infrastructure for 900 00:57:11,490 --> 00:57:12,330 feed hosting. 901 00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:17,370 Adam Curry: And so there's 1000s of places you can go to host 902 00:57:17,370 --> 00:57:23,640 your feed. And it's to the point where it's invisible. Nobody 903 00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:32,160 understands I heard I heard some sports guy. And it was a, there 904 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,190 was something about ads being placed in front of his podcast 905 00:57:35,190 --> 00:57:38,970 and in the way he saw his I Have a hosting company says, And they 906 00:57:38,970 --> 00:57:45,270 uploaded everywhere for me. Okay, and you know, and if one 907 00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:47,970 of my my episodes doesn't show up on Apple, they say you forgot 908 00:57:47,970 --> 00:57:51,270 to upload to Apple. He people don't even know how it works 909 00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:54,300 anymore. And we're still like, we got it in our heads, right 910 00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:58,200 feed aggregator we all we can all connect those dots very, 911 00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,860 very simply. But people don't don't see that. They're like 912 00:58:01,890 --> 00:58:05,610 that I'm using this. And I guess you have a hosting company. They 913 00:58:05,610 --> 00:58:08,940 upload it everywhere. They just make sure that file is uploaded 914 00:58:08,940 --> 00:58:14,730 to every platform. That's what that's what people think. Even 915 00:58:14,730 --> 00:58:19,320 podcasters don't realize anymore how it works. Yeah, because we 916 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,260 build so transparent, like you said, Yeah, but we built that 917 00:58:22,260 --> 00:58:27,900 infrastructure, which and so now instead of let's set up little 918 00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:30,900 servers to host little mini freedom controllers so we can 919 00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:35,070 interact with things now there's an infrastructure and it runs an 920 00:58:35,070 --> 00:58:38,940 activity pub and it's called Mastodon, you know, just for for 921 00:58:38,940 --> 00:58:41,940 all intents and purposes, but we don't care about the mastodon 922 00:58:41,940 --> 00:58:45,750 part. We care about the, the the plumbing, which is activity pub, 923 00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:48,450 which we can use beautifully to our advantage. 924 00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:53,100 Dave Jones: Right. And that's the part where it gets hard. Of 925 00:58:53,100 --> 00:58:57,030 course, okay, yeah. Because you're, you're now you're now 926 00:58:57,030 --> 00:59:01,440 starting to speak, speak a language back and forth to each 927 00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:05,220 other. Yeah, it's no longer just to get requests. Now. It's now 928 00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:11,220 now you know, now syntax is important now. Now, the wire 929 00:59:11,220 --> 00:59:13,620 level protocol is more complicated. I mean, these 930 00:59:13,620 --> 00:59:17,670 things are. Alex had a great point yesterday. So one of the 931 00:59:17,670 --> 00:59:20,730 things that one of the changes I made to the namespace this week, 932 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:27,480 if we're going to do some namespace stuff, is that for a 933 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,290 long time, the social enter the social interact tag has only 934 00:59:31,290 --> 00:59:35,010 been allowed, like by spec has only been allowed in the item. 935 00:59:35,610 --> 00:59:42,030 So in the episode level, and there there's always people have 936 00:59:42,030 --> 00:59:45,750 always wanted it to be in the channel itself to 937 00:59:45,870 --> 00:59:47,940 Adam Curry: people being a channel people being James 938 00:59:47,940 --> 00:59:49,650 Cridland. Now, there were 939 00:59:49,650 --> 00:59:51,780 Dave Jones: others. I mean, he wanted it to be there and he 940 00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:54,120 wanted it but there were others like in the original 941 00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:58,830 discussions. That was that was a one of the original discussion 942 00:59:58,830 --> 01:00:03,150 points was you know, Why should we why should we limit this? And 943 01:00:03,150 --> 01:00:06,720 that kind of thing? Yeah, I think, and 944 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,960 Adam Curry: I'm not against that. I just I think I disagree 945 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,200 with the fundamental argument that shows that a smaller 946 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,590 audience will have less people interacting. I'm not so sure 947 01:00:16,590 --> 01:00:22,260 about that. Yeah. I mean, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. 948 01:00:22,770 --> 01:00:26,670 Some Yeah, it's, the conversation is irrelevant. 949 01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,570 Yeah, it's fine. Put it in the channel. I got no problem with 950 01:00:30,570 --> 01:00:36,180 that. Can I just make one more analogy? Yes. Almost everybody, 951 01:00:36,180 --> 01:00:44,310 including me, has a Google login has a Google identity. And this 952 01:00:44,310 --> 01:00:48,690 Google thing does a lot of things for you. I typically use 953 01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:52,740 it. If there I'm signing up for something that I really just, 954 01:00:52,770 --> 01:00:55,710 I'm just trying something I really don't. This is my burner 955 01:00:55,710 --> 01:01:00,150 account. And so I'll get a verification through my Gmail. 956 01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:06,990 Yeah, I do have PayPal link to it. So I can do Google Pay, 957 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,790 which sometimes is just super easy. So that universal login 958 01:01:11,790 --> 01:01:16,590 account is, is in fact, what your Macedon, I'm just using 959 01:01:16,590 --> 01:01:22,380 that as a global term. Login will be for your podcast, your 960 01:01:22,380 --> 01:01:30,150 podcast app, so that we can then do something that I doubt Apple 961 01:01:30,150 --> 01:01:35,700 will ever ever do, I doubt Spotify will ever do is we can 962 01:01:35,730 --> 01:01:40,830 be communicating all of these different interactions amongst 963 01:01:40,830 --> 01:01:45,330 each other amongst a an ever expanding universe of apps. 964 01:01:46,770 --> 01:01:51,330 That, to me is super exciting, and blows away all competition. 965 01:01:52,170 --> 01:01:55,350 Because then the cool kids are over here. They're interacting. 966 01:01:55,350 --> 01:02:00,030 They're commenting, just like Rogan, people go to YouTube to 967 01:02:00,030 --> 01:02:03,870 comment. Now I say it's all about comments, but even 968 01:02:04,050 --> 01:02:07,770 discovery of oh, look at how many people are following this 969 01:02:07,770 --> 01:02:13,440 podcast. That is a very, very, very compelling thing. 970 01:02:15,750 --> 01:02:18,210 Dave Jones: Yeah, and you could see that that would build up, 971 01:02:18,690 --> 01:02:22,590 you would build up a community of peep of podcast listeners who 972 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,330 are dedicated, like app level listeners, they always use a 973 01:02:27,330 --> 01:02:31,500 podcast app. Yeah. And you and they would be posting, you know, 974 01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:35,250 they would be be doing actions back and forth. Commenting, 975 01:02:35,250 --> 01:02:44,100 reviewing rating. Adding adding things to play lists, yeah, yes, 976 01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:46,680 shared playlists, recommending 977 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,170 Adam Curry: function recommending your own pod roles. 978 01:02:49,170 --> 01:02:52,290 I mean, you can have all kinds of stuff that can really become 979 01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,950 a social graph. I said it, but it's really true. It's really 980 01:02:55,950 --> 01:02:59,760 true. It's really true. You're you're you're making available a 981 01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:03,810 social graph that you can then that will enrich your own life. 982 01:03:05,940 --> 01:03:07,620 Dave Jones: Yeah, and that one, and that would be its own sort 983 01:03:07,620 --> 01:03:12,300 of community, you know? Yes. Like the YouTube, like the 984 01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:16,920 YouTube community or whatever it is it for that evolves around a 985 01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:21,600 specific, a specific host or a specific channel or whatever you 986 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,600 want to call it. But then it just but then it just 987 01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:25,440 propagates. 988 01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,470 Adam Curry: Yes, everywhere. Everybody can get a part of it. 989 01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:32,280 And then that can go out to websites, and more businesses 990 01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:35,880 will, will sprout from that just I mean, I can see Daniel J. 991 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,050 Lewis, revamping his entire business of this as possible. 992 01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:42,960 Dave Jones: Well, if you if you're going to in this, this, 993 01:03:42,990 --> 01:03:46,350 this comes back to you know, social interact in the channel, 994 01:03:46,380 --> 01:03:53,250 and now you have some sort of some sort of tie back to, to, to 995 01:03:53,250 --> 01:03:56,370 the social interact. If you serve some sort of tie back to 996 01:03:56,370 --> 01:04:00,420 activity pub in the channel, then you can you have a starting 997 01:04:00,420 --> 01:04:07,080 place for pushing for pushing actions back and forth 998 01:04:07,110 --> 01:04:09,900 Adam Curry: about the podcast, right? Like, follow and that 999 01:04:09,900 --> 01:04:11,580 kind of stuff. But yeah, 1000 01:04:11,580 --> 01:04:13,710 Dave Jones: not just follow up, like you said, ratings or 1001 01:04:13,710 --> 01:04:16,230 reviews. So this may be something Daniel may be pulling 1002 01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:20,220 this data out, to pull into his service 1003 01:04:20,460 --> 01:04:22,080 Adam Curry: was like someone there because he's almost sent 1004 01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,930 me a note the other day? Are you familiar with this website 1005 01:04:24,930 --> 01:04:29,940 linked to good pods? We really need more representation over 1006 01:04:29,940 --> 01:04:34,080 there. And then I'm like me out. Well, my people don't, you know, 1007 01:04:34,110 --> 01:04:37,350 they don't go to good pods or whatever, whatever it's called. 1008 01:04:38,130 --> 01:04:40,950 You know, then there's other but the, you have all these little 1009 01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:44,250 places where people congregate and talk about, you know, 1010 01:04:44,250 --> 01:04:47,790 they're fake, they're the one or two podcasts or, or group of 1011 01:04:47,790 --> 01:04:51,090 podcasts. And we can bring that all together. Now, good pod 1012 01:04:51,090 --> 01:04:54,090 should be a part of it. They should be federating with with 1013 01:04:54,090 --> 01:04:56,460 the apps through the pub. 1014 01:04:56,940 --> 01:04:59,940 Dave Jones: Yeah, cuz they get there. They're a comment. Yeah. 1015 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,430 destination, there are this place where those things happen 1016 01:05:02,430 --> 01:05:06,810 and reviews and all that. But it's funny, you think that if 1017 01:05:06,810 --> 01:05:13,050 you have a protocol that that means that you can just do you 1018 01:05:13,050 --> 01:05:16,380 think that once you have a protocol, you can just extend 1019 01:05:16,380 --> 01:05:21,180 the protocol. And you don't have to worry about like things like 1020 01:05:21,390 --> 01:05:28,140 breakage, and that sort of stuff. But but it's not really 1021 01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:32,520 that simple. Because you still have chicken and egg, things 1022 01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:37,050 that happen with even within an existing protocol. So for 1023 01:05:37,050 --> 01:05:42,990 instance, Mastadon. Like we, if we, as we go down this road, if 1024 01:05:42,990 --> 01:05:48,960 we have things, we're going to need new new objects. So now 1025 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,870 maybe a note object is not enough, we need something 1026 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,250 different, like we, you know, just just as a crazy example, we 1027 01:05:56,250 --> 01:06:00,600 talked about a pod pod ping or activity pub. I'm not, I'm not 1028 01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:05,820 really thinking about that these days. But if if we had that, 1029 01:06:05,820 --> 01:06:08,610 let's just say I'm just trying to grab an example here. If we 1030 01:06:08,610 --> 01:06:14,430 had that, and you had an A pod ping object within activity pub. 1031 01:06:15,150 --> 01:06:18,540 Well, the existing activity pub class, they don't know about 1032 01:06:18,540 --> 01:06:20,880 that they have no idea what this thing is now, they wouldn't know 1033 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,910 what to do with it, they will know what to do with it. So that 1034 01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:26,970 you're still have a chicken and egg thing. Now you have a you 1035 01:06:26,970 --> 01:06:31,470 have a shared protocol. So you can, that's this may be 1036 01:06:31,470 --> 01:06:34,020 extendable, but it's but it's really not that different than 1037 01:06:34,020 --> 01:06:36,870 something like a namespace and an RSS feed support has to be 1038 01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:40,380 built in. Okay, so just initials and that's the hump you have to 1039 01:06:40,380 --> 01:06:46,950 get. Okay, this is okay, this is good for me of edifying. So, the 1040 01:06:46,950 --> 01:06:50,760 hurdles that we're seeing is, so let's just, let's take some 1041 01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,520 let's take some simple things. What can we actually do with the 1042 01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:54,420 existing 1043 01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,950 Adam Curry: activity pod protocol? Before we would have 1044 01:06:58,950 --> 01:07:03,210 to create you know, new verbs namespaces, blobs, whatever it 1045 01:07:03,210 --> 01:07:07,440 is, can we do podcasts I follow? 1046 01:07:11,070 --> 01:07:12,270 Dave Jones: You would. 1047 01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:14,910 Adam Curry: So for instance, so if you live, you look at my 1048 01:07:14,910 --> 01:07:22,200 profile in on podcast, index dot social, right. And this is, this 1049 01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:25,290 is just a very basic thing. But you look at my profile, the end, 1050 01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:31,110 here, you can see, posts, posts and replies media, but they can 1051 01:07:31,110 --> 01:07:34,350 also see following and I click on following, it shows who I'm 1052 01:07:34,350 --> 01:07:38,490 following. And you can see followers who's following me. 1053 01:07:39,300 --> 01:07:44,250 Can we use the active out sub forget if it's, if I had to 1054 01:07:44,250 --> 01:07:48,900 create a whole new activity pub account? Let's just forget all 1055 01:07:48,900 --> 01:07:53,580 that complicated stuff. Could you a bare minimum, be seeing 1056 01:07:53,580 --> 01:08:02,070 which podcasts I follow? If my app put into my activity pub 1057 01:08:02,100 --> 01:08:05,280 account that I follow these accounts, which are all 1058 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:11,580 podcasts? Is that am I making sense? Am I making sense? Yes, 1059 01:08:11,580 --> 01:08:11,670 you're 1060 01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:13,890 Dave Jones: making? Yeah, you're making sense. So you would you 1061 01:08:13,890 --> 01:08:17,220 would enumerate your, like, we would have to basically, we 1062 01:08:17,220 --> 01:08:23,400 would have to tag these actors, these podcast actors as podcasts 1063 01:08:24,810 --> 01:08:30,690 through I'm not, not sure exactly how we the best way to 1064 01:08:30,690 --> 01:08:32,910 do that. Right now. I'm trying to envision what the actor 1065 01:08:32,910 --> 01:08:36,300 object looks like. But we would, we would basically identify 1066 01:08:36,300 --> 01:08:44,640 these actors as podcasts, then someone would query your follow 1067 01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:52,050 your following list. And then be able to see, okay, 75 of these 1068 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:57,900 250 follows that you have our podcasts? To me, yeah, that's 1069 01:08:58,140 --> 01:09:00,840 yes, that's not a burden. I mean, that's the that's, that's 1070 01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:05,220 doable. So as to whether you will see there's two levels, you 1071 01:09:05,220 --> 01:09:09,540 can do it, you can just sort of like tag the actor in some way 1072 01:09:09,540 --> 01:09:14,520 as a podcast, or you can sort of you can define a podcast actor, 1073 01:09:14,550 --> 01:09:17,670 which is a whole different sort of, right, I got you more 1074 01:09:17,670 --> 01:09:22,560 involved. And then that's the part we have to jump over a, you 1075 01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:23,910 know, a log 1076 01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,090 Adam Curry: in Harvard says, I actually have zero desire to 1077 01:09:27,090 --> 01:09:30,570 show everyone what I follow. Sure. I mean, but that's not the 1078 01:09:30,570 --> 01:09:36,090 trend. People love. beefing up their profile letting people 1079 01:09:36,090 --> 01:09:40,560 know, I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's a fact of social 1080 01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:42,420 interaction. People like that. 1081 01:09:44,130 --> 01:09:46,800 Dave Jones: Some people like it, some people don't. Some 1082 01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:48,750 Adam Curry: people don't, but a lot of people do. I mean, it's 1083 01:09:48,750 --> 01:09:53,970 just like, we now have the podcasting 2.0 logo emoji, which 1084 01:09:53,970 --> 01:09:56,880 everybody can can add to that which I like, you know, it's 1085 01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,000 like hey, virtue signaling that I am a member of this group. 1086 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:04,350 Boop, I mean, this is things that are cool. You know? So 1087 01:10:04,530 --> 01:10:08,070 these are all, you know, this is a podcasting, 2.0, podcast, all 1088 01:10:08,070 --> 01:10:10,950 these different things. I understand what you're saying 1089 01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:12,660 now. And that's an important part that I hadn't really 1090 01:10:12,660 --> 01:10:16,620 considered that we that, yeah, it'll work if if you're all on 1091 01:10:16,620 --> 01:10:20,610 the same instance that understands these objects or 1092 01:10:20,610 --> 01:10:23,580 actors wherever you call them. But that would be something that 1093 01:10:23,580 --> 01:10:28,290 would have to that everyone has to implement that just like a 1094 01:10:28,290 --> 01:10:31,440 namespace in order for that to work. 1095 01:10:32,820 --> 01:10:34,770 Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, we've done 1096 01:10:34,770 --> 01:10:37,920 Adam Curry: it before we've done one namespace, I'm sure we could 1097 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:39,420 do another one. We've 1098 01:10:39,420 --> 01:10:42,840 Dave Jones: done two, we've done two namespaces, where we did SOP 1099 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:46,470 ml and podcasts namespace. So we're, we know how to namespace 1100 01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:51,450 stuff. You know, we, if anybody's good from start with 1101 01:10:51,450 --> 01:10:56,220 starting from egg, absolute scratch is probably us. But I 1102 01:10:56,220 --> 01:11:00,720 think we can. I mean, in any activity, pub is not going to be 1103 01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:04,860 the solution to every problem. You know? Nothing really is. 1104 01:11:05,250 --> 01:11:09,120 There is no, there is no protocol. That is the solution 1105 01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:12,960 for every problem. You pick and choose. That's why we still use 1106 01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:17,670 XML for RSS feeds. Yeah. Because it's fine. It works. It's fine. 1107 01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,390 That's not we're not we're not we're nobody's changing this. 1108 01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:30,450 And the way and so when it comes to social interaction of a 1109 01:11:30,450 --> 01:11:37,230 certain extensible type activity Pub is, is the right choice for 1110 01:11:37,230 --> 01:11:39,000 that is the right tool for that job. 1111 01:11:39,210 --> 01:11:40,830 Adam Curry: You got that? And that was gonna be my next 1112 01:11:40,830 --> 01:11:43,710 question. I mean, am I barking up the wrong tree here or 1113 01:11:44,820 --> 01:11:48,630 social? First, we have to agree is social interaction desired? 1114 01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:53,190 And I say yes, I say social interaction between podcast apps 1115 01:11:53,220 --> 01:11:57,720 is something that will turn it into a very, very powerful 1116 01:11:57,750 --> 01:12:02,670 entity. I think so too. Is activity pub, the right 1117 01:12:03,330 --> 01:12:07,620 infrastructure based upon its limitations, versus its 1118 01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:09,630 availability to many people. 1119 01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,400 Dave Jones: Okay. All right, in my opinion, yes. So when it when 1120 01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,850 it comes to social interaction between apps activity, pub, to 1121 01:12:17,850 --> 01:12:30,300 me is the correct answer. Why when it comes because it's, it's 1122 01:12:30,300 --> 01:12:34,710 got this, this is similar to watch why to choose a crit one 1123 01:12:34,710 --> 01:12:38,340 crypto over the other or whatever. It's, it's sort of a 1124 01:12:38,340 --> 01:12:41,070 constellation of, of different factors, you have to take into 1125 01:12:41,070 --> 01:12:47,670 account. It's, it's not super complex. It's got, it's got an 1126 01:12:47,670 --> 01:12:53,340 ease of understanding to it. It's got market share already, 1127 01:12:53,340 --> 01:12:57,660 it's already got momentum. Like lots of it paid, it's often 1128 01:12:57,660 --> 01:13:00,810 running. So you're not so it's not hurting, it's in it's got 1129 01:13:00,810 --> 01:13:06,300 support within most languages, like it's got libraries for most 1130 01:13:06,300 --> 01:13:09,840 languages that will support the basics, okay. There's example 1131 01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,270 code out there, there's that kind of thing. And then it's, 1132 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,430 you can, it's already been, you're already seeing being 1133 01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:21,750 done. Apps are already federating in using this 1134 01:13:21,750 --> 01:13:27,450 protocol. Okay. So it's, it's got sort of like a, its 1135 01:13:27,450 --> 01:13:33,390 pedigree, at this point, makes sense. But when you versus 1136 01:13:33,390 --> 01:13:36,810 something like a Noster, where you're where you're starting, 1137 01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:41,280 you know, you're trying to grow scratch from nothing. Yeah. And, 1138 01:13:41,430 --> 01:13:44,370 you know, ignoring or ignoring all the downsides of the 1139 01:13:44,370 --> 01:13:46,650 protocol itself. I mean, it's just purely trying to get 1140 01:13:46,650 --> 01:13:48,690 something off the ground from absolutely nothing. And there's 1141 01:13:48,690 --> 01:13:49,830 no network effect, you know, 1142 01:13:50,250 --> 01:13:52,470 Adam Curry: I'm going to ask you, I'm just, this is how we do 1143 01:13:52,470 --> 01:13:59,190 it, Dave. With that in mind, the energy so taking your scale, 1144 01:13:59,190 --> 01:14:02,610 right, is the energy and I can't believe I'm saying this is the 1145 01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:12,570 energy and the, the amount of I think energy, not velocity, but 1146 01:14:12,570 --> 01:14:18,360 the amount of veracity that is, this velocity and veracity. So 1147 01:14:18,510 --> 01:14:26,940 activitypub has velocity noster has veracity. And in effect, if 1148 01:14:26,940 --> 01:14:32,520 you want to add something to the Nasr protocol, we will find much 1149 01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:38,700 more. A much easier path, I believe. Then going to Gore 1150 01:14:38,700 --> 01:14:42,780 Gonzalez, whatever his name is Gorgon and saying Hey, David 1151 01:14:42,780 --> 01:14:43,140 Dave Jones: Gergen, 1152 01:14:43,500 --> 01:14:46,410 Adam Curry: Gorgon, we need we need we need this hey, these 1153 01:14:46,410 --> 01:14:49,830 crypto bros over here with free speech we want to have this 1154 01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:54,810 added to Macedon. I mean I've just thrown that out there. I 1155 01:14:54,810 --> 01:14:58,230 understand all the issues and I Alex GATES I love you don't 1156 01:14:58,230 --> 01:15:03,030 don't get mad just yet. And is asking the question. Are we 1157 01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:06,000 very, very sure activity Pub is the right way to go taking the 1158 01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:10,140 velocity versus veracity into account? Because as I've always 1159 01:15:10,140 --> 01:15:12,990 said, Nasr is a solution looking for a problem. 1160 01:15:14,370 --> 01:15:17,700 Dave Jones: But no, I think I think activitypub is the correct 1161 01:15:17,700 --> 01:15:20,370 solution because nostril has the same exact problem 1162 01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:24,150 Adam Curry: with a smaller group to convince, who may be more 1163 01:15:26,460 --> 01:15:30,600 enthusiastic to make it woman, 1164 01:15:30,660 --> 01:15:34,200 Dave Jones: I don't know that I would go that far. Okay. Maybe 1165 01:15:34,230 --> 01:15:38,130 because noster has the same issue it has. Look how many nips 1166 01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:41,910 there are. There's like seven bazillion of these things. You 1167 01:15:41,910 --> 01:15:46,500 look at your typical nostre relay, and it supports maybe 40. 1168 01:15:47,490 --> 01:15:48,720 There's there. Oh, 1169 01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,540 Adam Curry: yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's always comes down to the 1170 01:15:51,540 --> 01:15:53,940 instance or the relay or whatever. Yeah, it always, 1171 01:15:54,210 --> 01:15:56,820 Dave Jones: there's hundreds of proposals that just never get 1172 01:15:56,820 --> 01:16:00,180 anything done. Right. So it's but 1173 01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:03,930 Adam Curry: the way I see it is it's entirely possible that just 1174 01:16:03,930 --> 01:16:11,490 as true fans will become a full native activity pop client, and 1175 01:16:11,490 --> 01:16:17,430 will service its users with an activity pub instance, a login 1176 01:16:17,850 --> 01:16:21,690 that doesn't act at all, like a mastodon server, but just does 1177 01:16:21,690 --> 01:16:26,820 the activity pub activity pub Federation, will that mean that 1178 01:16:26,820 --> 01:16:30,240 podcast guru basically needs to do the same for their users? 1179 01:16:33,300 --> 01:16:35,250 Dave Jones: See that said again, I'm not sure I follow. 1180 01:16:35,610 --> 01:16:38,580 Adam Curry: Oh, instead of me bringing my existing activity 1181 01:16:38,580 --> 01:16:43,230 pub account, which is typically linked to a mastodon, right? Is 1182 01:16:43,230 --> 01:16:48,060 it easier to bootstrap this by the developer, the app 1183 01:16:48,060 --> 01:16:51,570 developers having their own wishes, a whole nother burden, a 1184 01:16:51,570 --> 01:16:55,230 whole nother can of worms, having their own activity pub 1185 01:16:55,260 --> 01:16:59,400 running, either in client or as a server to service their 1186 01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,360 customers, their app users for the social interaction with 1187 01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:04,230 other apps. 1188 01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,090 Dave Jones: I think that's the only way this really gets off 1189 01:17:09,090 --> 01:17:09,690 the ground. 1190 01:17:10,110 --> 01:17:13,020 Adam Curry: That's this is this is a big thing to understand. 1191 01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:14,310 Because 1192 01:17:14,340 --> 01:17:16,680 Dave Jones: I agree with Matt airhead in the chat because he 1193 01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,800 says he says his comment is Mastodon is a really poor 1194 01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:24,330 example of activity pub and got it. I don't think he's right. In 1195 01:17:24,330 --> 01:17:29,580 one sense. I mean, it's a good example of it. If you're if 1196 01:17:29,580 --> 01:17:38,550 you're if you're ill, if your aim is is to show what it can do 1197 01:17:38,580 --> 01:17:45,480 as a proof of concept for for a use case, like I'm having 1198 01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:49,710 trouble describing this. Okay. There's a reason why whenever 1199 01:17:49,710 --> 01:17:53,220 anybody comes up with a social protocol, they the first thing 1200 01:17:53,220 --> 01:17:55,440 they build, just like nostra did the first thing they build as a 1201 01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:56,340 social network, right, 1202 01:17:56,340 --> 01:17:59,400 Adam Curry: which is kind of death. Yeah, it's because 1203 01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:03,090 Dave Jones: it's the first because it it, it's an easy sort 1204 01:18:03,090 --> 01:18:08,880 of way to, it's the same reason to all example, code apps that 1205 01:18:09,030 --> 01:18:11,940 like how to build an app one on one always starts with like an 1206 01:18:11,940 --> 01:18:16,620 RSS reader. It's just this easy. Hello, World type. Yeah, here's 1207 01:18:16,620 --> 01:18:20,040 my protocol. I'm going to show it off. Right. But he's right, 1208 01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:26,580 in the sense that, that it's a poor, it's a, it leaves you with 1209 01:18:26,580 --> 01:18:30,900 a poor understanding of the full capabilities of what can be 1210 01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:36,960 created with this thing. It leaves you it sort of leaves you 1211 01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:41,160 wanting. Because you because you what you end up with is 1212 01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:44,190 thinking, you're in a box, you're stuck in a box, you're 1213 01:18:44,190 --> 01:18:48,180 thinking okay, oh, what this this is a social media protocol. 1214 01:18:49,140 --> 01:18:53,700 But that is not really, it's, it's capable of much, much more. 1215 01:18:56,190 --> 01:18:56,610 I mean, 1216 01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:03,420 Adam Curry: which, and I'm least interested in the social media 1217 01:19:03,420 --> 01:19:07,560 aspect. As most of these things pop up. That's why I'm always 1218 01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:12,330 saying, let's do something really simple, like a star. If 1219 01:19:12,330 --> 01:19:16,230 we can all get if I can hit five stars on one podcast, and 1220 01:19:16,230 --> 01:19:20,670 everybody else can see that on in their app. Champagne all 1221 01:19:20,670 --> 01:19:21,150 around. 1222 01:19:22,950 --> 01:19:27,630 Dave Jones: Right? Yeah. I mean, are those things like, play? 1223 01:19:28,140 --> 01:19:32,070 Yeah. Well, that's odd. Caddys native thing that activity pub 1224 01:19:32,070 --> 01:19:35,220 could do that you can't do through RSS to speak today. 1225 01:19:35,220 --> 01:19:35,940 Wonders point. 1226 01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:37,530 Unknown: Right. 1227 01:19:38,790 --> 01:19:42,180 Adam Curry: Just just seems like I don't know what I do with I 1228 01:19:42,180 --> 01:19:45,990 don't care if someone's well, maybe I do. I'm more I'm more 1229 01:19:45,990 --> 01:19:49,980 interested in aggregate. Like what's the rating? What's the 1230 01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:53,880 what's the what's the star rating? What is followed a lot. 1231 01:19:53,910 --> 01:19:55,860 This is the stuff that people always think they can get from 1232 01:19:55,860 --> 01:19:58,710 the index, which we don't have. Like how many people are 1233 01:19:58,710 --> 01:20:01,950 subscribed to this podcast? So that stuff that was interesting, 1234 01:20:03,090 --> 01:20:09,900 or? Yeah, let's just leave it at that. I mean, we I think we need 1235 01:20:09,900 --> 01:20:15,360 to pick one thing that hopefully is not comments that we all say, 1236 01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:19,530 okay, we can implement this. And and I agree with the who said 1237 01:20:19,530 --> 01:20:27,330 that in the Todd, I guess geek news that the podcast guru has 1238 01:20:27,330 --> 01:20:30,840 pod chaser login here to pod chaser. And I'm never going to 1239 01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:35,430 do that. Now I want either, I'm never going to do it. Now. And 1240 01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:41,580 for the by the same token, if it said, log into your Mastodon, a 1241 01:20:41,580 --> 01:20:44,430 lot of people probably won't do that. But if it says you're 1242 01:20:44,430 --> 01:20:49,980 logged into podcast guru, which I am, but I have some kind of I 1243 01:20:49,980 --> 01:20:53,310 know, I have some kind of login credentials for podcast guru, 1244 01:20:53,610 --> 01:20:56,820 because I can synchronize it somewhere or pod verse or 1245 01:20:56,820 --> 01:21:00,600 whatever. You know, that's, I'm feeling better about that. And 1246 01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:03,300 then what that does in the back end, if that's connecting to an 1247 01:21:03,300 --> 01:21:07,080 activity pub, that's great. I'm just fine. Hey, I can see. I can 1248 01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:08,940 see how many people follow this podcast. 1249 01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:12,720 Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, this, that the login with POD chaser 1250 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:17,820 thing is a way to give a cast first party data about about 1251 01:21:18,270 --> 01:21:21,570 listener metrics. Got it? Let's just be honest. I mean, that's 1252 01:21:21,570 --> 01:21:26,520 what that is. But you know, so Nathan said, I'd love to hear 1253 01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:31,830 your thoughts about the open API for podcasting data. I have got 1254 01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:34,830 that in my notes here. And I've got a bunch of stuff to to say 1255 01:21:34,830 --> 01:21:38,670 about that. I'm not sure we have. I can't I feel like it's 1256 01:21:38,670 --> 01:21:41,010 gonna be a long conversation. So I'm not sure we have time to go 1257 01:21:41,010 --> 01:21:46,650 over it. And I actually want, I want to talk about it. I'm gonna 1258 01:21:46,650 --> 01:21:51,990 talk about it next week. And because I may, actually, uh, may 1259 01:21:51,990 --> 01:21:56,760 actually try to get some code up and running on that this week. 1260 01:21:56,820 --> 01:21:58,650 Adam Curry: And to what is this? I'm not familiar with this. 1261 01:21:58,650 --> 01:22:02,190 There's an open API standard for podcast synchronization. 1262 01:22:03,150 --> 01:22:06,270 Dave Jones: Yeah, it's the open podcast sync API. 1263 01:22:06,540 --> 01:22:07,170 Adam Curry: Never heard of. 1264 01:22:09,510 --> 01:22:13,950 Dave Jones: And, well, I mean, it's very nascent, it's facing 1265 01:22:13,950 --> 01:22:21,510 you. But I want to get I want to get a little bit more off the 1266 01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:24,720 ground on that. I have tons of thoughts on it. And I think it's 1267 01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:29,190 an very interesting idea. It could relate to this also. Okay, 1268 01:22:29,490 --> 01:22:34,140 to to activity pub, I kind of want to I want to let I actually 1269 01:22:34,140 --> 01:22:38,100 want to do some coding on it. I would not mind coming up with a 1270 01:22:38,100 --> 01:22:41,250 Adam Curry: reference server for this. And what what is this? So 1271 01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:43,950 that means your subscriptions can sync between apps? 1272 01:22:44,550 --> 01:22:48,780 Dave Jones: Yes, subscriptions and other types of other stuff? 1273 01:22:48,810 --> 01:22:54,600 Uh, huh. Related to, to relate it to your catalogue, and what 1274 01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:55,380 you're doing with 1275 01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:59,370 Adam Curry: it, I think that's how I feel like we went one step 1276 01:22:59,370 --> 01:23:02,130 forward, two steps back, but it's okay, because that happens 1277 01:23:02,130 --> 01:23:09,450 in these iterative processes. But I just like, I just have a 1278 01:23:09,450 --> 01:23:14,700 high level overview. And that's, if we can connect these apps 1279 01:23:14,700 --> 01:23:18,330 together, which I'll just call federated federating. But 1280 01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:22,140 interrupt, call it whatever you want. I think that's a big win 1281 01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:27,360 for podcasting for the independent apps that can do it. 1282 01:23:28,860 --> 01:23:31,020 Because everyone else would be left out in the in the in the 1283 01:23:31,020 --> 01:23:36,030 dust, it won't be as interesting, right? Now, then 1284 01:23:36,060 --> 01:23:38,850 write a review, or what are you going to say, Go write a review 1285 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:43,620 on Spotify? Now, do that on these apps? Because then there's 1286 01:23:43,620 --> 01:23:45,900 these other 20 apps that get the same information? 1287 01:23:46,530 --> 01:23:49,410 Dave Jones: Yeah, just do it right in the app. Click on your 1288 01:23:49,410 --> 01:23:49,950 five 1289 01:23:49,980 --> 01:23:52,470 Adam Curry: be, you know, basically a pod roll for app 1290 01:23:52,470 --> 01:23:53,100 users. 1291 01:23:54,060 --> 01:23:54,420 Dave Jones: Yeah, 1292 01:23:54,450 --> 01:23:56,610 Adam Curry: click on your five favorite you know, when you when 1293 01:23:56,610 --> 01:24:00,630 I heard it on the podcast guru, that should be an activity that 1294 01:24:00,630 --> 01:24:03,720 shows up somewhere and lead this many people heart this podcast 1295 01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,840 because they like it. And then you could even drill down what 1296 01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:10,110 else is this guy? Like? You know, I might like that other 1297 01:24:10,110 --> 01:24:12,780 stuff. There's your discovery. That's, you know, people have 1298 01:24:12,780 --> 01:24:15,390 this idea that YouTube's gonna give them discovery, but new, 1299 01:24:15,810 --> 01:24:18,600 but this is discovery native to what we're doing. And if we can 1300 01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:23,160 do that distributed through activity pub, or the open 1301 01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:25,770 podcast sync API doesn't really matter to me what's under the 1302 01:24:25,770 --> 01:24:29,790 hood. But what a giant leap for mankind. That would be 1303 01:24:30,900 --> 01:24:36,930 Dave Jones: great. Yeah, yes. I mean, the Yeah, and all this the 1304 01:24:36,930 --> 01:24:43,920 open podcast sync API. I can see that being this is what I want 1305 01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:47,370 to explore is is a sort of a need to get a mental model of 1306 01:24:47,370 --> 01:24:53,790 how this could federate. Because I think it can. It The other 1307 01:24:53,790 --> 01:24:56,640 thing is we want to a promise we'll talk about this on the 1308 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,040 next show. I just, we've talked about so much already. I don't I 1309 01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,590 don't think I can do Hampshire handle the mental bandwidth of 1310 01:25:01,590 --> 01:25:05,520 that. Yeah, but because of my notes are like I've got like six 1311 01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:10,050 levels deep in my outline here about the podcasts, he KPI. But 1312 01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,340 the other thing we got to remember is people people don't 1313 01:25:14,340 --> 01:25:19,980 always want many people, myself included don't want their the ad 1314 01:25:19,980 --> 01:25:25,650 don't want a single identity online. Gotcha. You know what I 1315 01:25:25,650 --> 01:25:27,510 mean? Sure, sure. You don't want to you know, I 1316 01:25:27,510 --> 01:25:29,580 Unknown: don't have it either. Like, I don't have it either. 1317 01:25:29,970 --> 01:25:31,080 You know, 1318 01:25:32,250 --> 01:25:35,880 Dave Jones: I want to segregate my identities out into different 1319 01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:43,590 use cases. Like I have my podcast index, does social mass, 1320 01:25:43,590 --> 01:25:48,540 you know, activitypub identity. If I go, if I go and have an 1321 01:25:48,540 --> 01:25:51,810 identity within the within the sort of federated podcast app 1322 01:25:51,810 --> 01:25:55,530 world, I don't want that I'm not going to use my podcast indexed 1323 01:25:55,530 --> 01:25:58,320 or social Id got it, I'm going to have something different. 1324 01:25:58,890 --> 01:26:03,480 Because I don't like I like the compartmentalization of these 1325 01:26:03,480 --> 01:26:07,800 different things because they serve me in identities online 1326 01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:13,620 are meant to serve you. And they serve me in different from, they 1327 01:26:13,620 --> 01:26:17,100 serve my needs in different ways. That's the thing that 1328 01:26:17,100 --> 01:26:20,310 always creeps me out about this sort of digital identity stuff 1329 01:26:20,310 --> 01:26:24,510 that d&d stuff is there's always behind it, this sort of notion 1330 01:26:24,510 --> 01:26:29,100 that is only going to be like, universal Single Sign In. Yeah. 1331 01:26:29,130 --> 01:26:31,980 Where You Are you everywhere and no government. Don't 1332 01:26:31,980 --> 01:26:33,240 Adam Curry: worry, the government will give you that 1333 01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:34,140 don't worry, that's coming. 1334 01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:37,470 Dave Jones: Waiting for my mail. 1335 01:26:40,980 --> 01:26:45,030 Adam Curry: Exciting, and I'm looking at this open podcast API 1336 01:26:45,060 --> 01:26:48,390 looks like a lot of people started it. We're interested 1337 01:26:48,420 --> 01:26:55,230 antenna pod funk whale cast pod friend G Potter looks super 1338 01:26:55,230 --> 01:26:55,890 interesting. 1339 01:26:56,310 --> 01:27:01,740 Dave Jones: The first reaction to it is just use OPML. But the 1340 01:27:01,740 --> 01:27:04,560 more I thought about it, I'm like, No, this is actually 1341 01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:08,220 legit. This is better. This is this is better. 1342 01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:11,310 Adam Curry: Can I talk about a different to interrupt project 1343 01:27:11,310 --> 01:27:12,360 that is taking place? 1344 01:27:13,410 --> 01:27:14,640 Dave Jones: Yes, you can. 1345 01:27:15,390 --> 01:27:18,720 Adam Curry: So I've had some ongoing conversations with Cody 1346 01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:22,680 from the side stream music podcast. Now he's a radio guy 1347 01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:27,360 who are either he still is a morning show here in Texas. And 1348 01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,620 he is now putting I think it's actually there's a call of 1349 01:27:31,620 --> 01:27:34,410 course it's happening right after today's board meeting, 1350 01:27:34,410 --> 01:27:37,800 which I saw I can't attend their call. Now this 1351 01:27:37,830 --> 01:27:40,770 Dave Jones: is this is this guy that was on the wavelength show. 1352 01:27:41,550 --> 01:27:42,000 Yeah, 1353 01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:43,950 Adam Curry: that's Cody was on the was interviewed by the 1354 01:27:43,950 --> 01:27:49,860 wavelength, guys. Yeah. Okay. And so Cody really loves it. 1355 01:27:49,860 --> 01:27:53,220 He's a live radio guy. And he's been, I think he's now episode 1356 01:27:53,220 --> 01:27:56,790 25 of the sidestream music podcast. And he knows a lot of 1357 01:27:56,790 --> 01:28:00,000 the artists and you know, he's a real driver. I mean, like, like 1358 01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:04,500 many many of the, of the guys who have shows in the in the 1359 01:28:04,500 --> 01:28:10,500 music in the V music space. Now he he has a good connection 1360 01:28:10,530 --> 01:28:16,020 friendly connection with the CEO and founder of wire ready. And 1361 01:28:16,020 --> 01:28:21,210 wire ready is basically a radio playout system so very similar 1362 01:28:21,210 --> 01:28:25,320 to em heirless which I use. So why already you know, it has 1363 01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:28,950 your cards and then you can you know your soundboard, you can 1364 01:28:28,980 --> 01:28:35,820 cue up songs, and then you can play and so for both live and 1365 01:28:35,820 --> 01:28:40,410 recorded shows, key is now connects they're gonna have a 1366 01:28:40,410 --> 01:28:46,140 call with I think Dobby das tins Dobby. I think Cody's already 1367 01:28:46,140 --> 01:28:51,000 hosted with RSS blue.com. And what they're trying to do is 1368 01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:55,560 create a version of wire ready, which you know, typically is 1369 01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:58,920 licensed to radio stations for not an insignificant amount. 1370 01:28:59,790 --> 01:29:04,320 This guy wants to play value for value. So that you can you will 1371 01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:08,040 be able to download this wire Ready program, you can then 1372 01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:11,250 create your podcast with it, it would hook into I get in 1373 01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:15,030 initially, I guess RSS blue.com I don't know exactly what 1374 01:29:15,030 --> 01:29:18,720 they're going to come up with. But the idea is, you fire this 1375 01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:23,160 up, be say I'm looking for a song, it hits the podcast index 1376 01:29:23,190 --> 01:29:26,550 API, just like the split kit does or any of those other 1377 01:29:26,550 --> 01:29:30,870 things. So you can search you can cue up your songs you play 1378 01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:34,440 him and then on the fly it tracks everything and then 1379 01:29:34,470 --> 01:29:40,050 outputs your chapter and your value time split JSON feeds for 1380 01:29:40,050 --> 01:29:43,800 upload to your host so we have two full days and it will also 1381 01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:48,330 activate you know a live stream whatever. So we'll have all in 1382 01:29:48,330 --> 01:29:52,080 one bundle and it'll do value for value so you know he's gonna 1383 01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:55,500 want some value is going to want to be in the split. So at 1384 01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:58,320 anybody can in essence download this there'll be a special 1385 01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:03,600 podcast version And then you can go live you can record it for 1386 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:07,470 upload later and it will do all the allow you to search the 1387 01:30:07,470 --> 01:30:11,430 music and do all create all the very much the way the split kit 1388 01:30:11,430 --> 01:30:19,440 does it and then all integrated into into one application that 1389 01:30:19,620 --> 01:30:23,790 is a professional app for wow this Yeah, isn't that cool? 1390 01:30:24,450 --> 01:30:25,800 Dave Jones: That's fantastic. Yeah, 1391 01:30:25,980 --> 01:30:28,590 Adam Curry: yeah I'm very I'm very excited about that. So I 1392 01:30:28,590 --> 01:30:30,900 guess read Yeah, yeah. 1393 01:30:31,830 --> 01:30:35,220 Dave Jones: I mean to it okay, we're talking talking about me 1394 01:30:35,250 --> 01:30:42,030 that's that's pretty cool. I mean, if this if this there may 1395 01:30:42,210 --> 01:30:45,150 be a need to get in there and fix some of the API or about 1396 01:30:45,180 --> 01:30:49,650 around music there's some Yeah, of course there's some issues 1397 01:30:49,650 --> 01:30:50,640 with but 1398 01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:52,890 Adam Curry: the thing is Dolby Das is in the middle so he'll 1399 01:30:52,950 --> 01:30:55,980 he'll he already knows how to access all that stuff. He knows 1400 01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:59,340 the the the problems so you don't you know Dobby das will 1401 01:30:59,340 --> 01:31:03,810 contact you. And I hope I think Barry should be brought into 1402 01:31:03,810 --> 01:31:07,560 this you know, the podcast 2.0 native hosting companies. 1403 01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:11,130 They're really the guys that can that can work with this. But I'm 1404 01:31:11,130 --> 01:31:15,210 super excited. Because now you have not only something you can 1405 01:31:15,210 --> 01:31:19,890 easily create a podcast with, you know, like a front end that 1406 01:31:19,890 --> 01:31:23,100 you get to your host but then all this all this other music 1407 01:31:23,100 --> 01:31:25,980 stuff is built right into it. I think that would that's going to 1408 01:31:25,980 --> 01:31:27,720 be so exciting to 1409 01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:30,360 Dave Jones: have a native sort of a native experience. Yeah, 1410 01:31:30,390 --> 01:31:38,730 yeah. So my wife sent me this couple of days ago that she 1411 01:31:39,060 --> 01:31:46,320 she's a fan of this guy. Allen Google. Or Google rings 1412 01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:51,000 adventures and Australian guitar as Australian guitarist. He's 1413 01:31:51,180 --> 01:31:55,680 He's writes beautiful music. Alan G as last name is G O G O L 1414 01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:01,590 L. Go Gaul or something like that. Beautiful music. Just just 1415 01:32:01,590 --> 01:32:08,850 fantastic. Artist. And he posted this a few days ago, he says is 1416 01:32:08,850 --> 01:32:11,490 with a heavy heart that I can confirm Apple Music has removed 1417 01:32:11,490 --> 01:32:15,180 and blacklisted much of my music and continues to do so every 1418 01:32:15,180 --> 01:32:18,720 day. This is a significant portion of my livelihood gone. 1419 01:32:19,110 --> 01:32:23,190 CD Baby have been unable to help me at all. Being accused of 1420 01:32:23,190 --> 01:32:26,070 buying fake streams for my music. There's absolutely 1421 01:32:26,070 --> 01:32:28,950 nothing I can do to stop this. I've simply been ghosted by 1422 01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:32,940 Apple and CD Baby and told don't buy fake streams. They're not 1423 01:32:32,940 --> 01:32:35,970 only accusing me of this, but carrying out permanent judgment 1424 01:32:35,970 --> 01:32:39,000 as well. I have offered my full financial records to show that 1425 01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:42,120 I've never paid for streams nor do I need to. And why would I 1426 01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:44,640 continue to destroy my career like this? If I was buying fake 1427 01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,640 streams in over 20 years or releasing music this is the 1428 01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:49,980 worst experience I've ever had with no light at the end of the 1429 01:32:49,980 --> 01:32:52,770 tunnel. If you're a lawyer willing to help me please email 1430 01:32:52,770 --> 01:32:57,000 me or DM me thankfully, my music is on Spotify still unaffected. 1431 01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:01,500 So please consider listening there. This is you know, wow, 1432 01:33:01,590 --> 01:33:05,340 what happens to happens when you're in that ecosystem? And 1433 01:33:05,340 --> 01:33:08,280 Adam Curry: is no one no one to call? No one answered the phone. 1434 01:33:08,970 --> 01:33:09,870 Yeah, no, they 1435 01:33:09,870 --> 01:33:13,740 Dave Jones: all just say Sorry, can't help you. Wow. And you're 1436 01:33:13,770 --> 01:33:20,010 potentially blind lost half your income. So I mean, having this 1437 01:33:20,010 --> 01:33:24,090 is not this is not just all fun and games where we're all just 1438 01:33:24,090 --> 01:33:26,070 kind of pretending you know, obviously not pretending we're 1439 01:33:26,070 --> 01:33:29,370 we're all kind of just having a good time. Writing software. 1440 01:33:30,090 --> 01:33:32,820 This is potentially important for for real people in the real 1441 01:33:32,820 --> 01:33:37,050 world making real money shall we? I think having a plan B you 1442 01:33:37,050 --> 01:33:37,200 know, 1443 01:33:37,230 --> 01:33:39,210 Adam Curry: should we help somebody out with some real 1444 01:33:39,210 --> 01:33:43,080 money? I would love to Okay, I got a banger for you. It's a 1445 01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:46,920 Friday afternoon bang Are You Ready? Ready? Yes all right. I'm 1446 01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:50,970 ready for banger myself. This is the velvet I heard them on the 1447 01:33:50,970 --> 01:33:54,570 phantom power music I thought yeah, this is perfect for Friday 1448 01:33:54,570 --> 01:33:55,200 afternoon. 1449 01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:14,880 Unknown: Salmon 1450 01:34:34,830 --> 01:34:36,180 she's my sweet 1451 01:34:47,700 --> 01:34:48,900 she's my speech. 1452 01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:00,360 Adam Curry: Ask 1453 01:35:19,980 --> 01:35:20,820 Unknown: she's my sweet 1454 01:35:25,980 --> 01:35:27,270 she's my team 1455 01:36:33,390 --> 01:36:34,650 she's my sweet 1456 01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:09,330 Adam Curry: you ready for the weekend here, the pelvic suite 1457 01:37:09,330 --> 01:37:13,710 shapes. Everybody who went to the bathroom raise your hand. 1458 01:37:14,430 --> 01:37:20,820 Dave Jones: Oh, that was seeing the yellow pad or on buildings. 1459 01:37:20,820 --> 01:37:21,630 That's a great name. 1460 01:37:22,860 --> 01:37:25,230 Adam Curry: If you're listening to this podcast, if you didn't 1461 01:37:25,230 --> 01:37:28,380 boost during that song, go ahead rewind it, and you can even 1462 01:37:28,380 --> 01:37:31,620 pause it and then just boost them. boost those guys. Let them 1463 01:37:31,620 --> 01:37:34,350 know and let them know you heard it on podcasting. 2.0 the board 1464 01:37:34,350 --> 01:37:34,800 meeting? 1465 01:37:35,430 --> 01:37:39,270 Dave Jones: Yes. Brought to you by the gates in wallet switching 1466 01:37:39,270 --> 01:37:40,530 technology. That's right. 1467 01:37:41,490 --> 01:37:44,250 Adam Curry: The magic gates you and wallet switching technology. 1468 01:37:45,660 --> 01:37:48,030 Yeah, that's good. That guy kept me awake. 1469 01:37:48,060 --> 01:37:49,680 Unknown: I like that. Yeah, I like you're good. 1470 01:37:50,430 --> 01:37:55,860 Dave Jones: It helps wake you up after the NPR CEO. Yes, indeed. 1471 01:37:55,890 --> 01:37:58,290 Indeed. Well, thanks for people. 1472 01:37:58,590 --> 01:38:00,570 Adam Curry: Oh, you're I mean, we can do we can do another 1473 01:38:00,570 --> 01:38:03,840 topic if you wanted to. I mean, I How are you on time? You got 1474 01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:05,280 to get out. Yeah, I 1475 01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:06,360 Dave Jones: gotta go back to the office. 1476 01:38:07,350 --> 01:38:12,630 Adam Curry: You got a harder Okay, yeah. Let me let me bring 1477 01:38:12,630 --> 01:38:16,500 up the life boost. Let me see what we have here. of the ego 1478 01:38:16,530 --> 01:38:21,270 Eric pp 3333 sets for sweet cheeks played on podcasting. 2.0 1479 01:38:21,300 --> 01:38:26,640 Perfect. Thank you very much. dribs got 3456 He says hey, I 1480 01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:32,250 thought that hive was the solution for all problems. It is 1481 01:38:32,250 --> 01:38:36,510 of course the solution it is of course a solution. Brian, I'm 1482 01:38:36,510 --> 01:38:39,270 not I'm not going to deny it. It's a solution. It is a 1483 01:38:39,270 --> 01:38:42,900 solution. 3333 from Jean Everett's Thank you would just 1484 01:38:42,900 --> 01:38:47,760 says boost. Todd Cochran 1000 SATs. Adam many podcasters do 1485 01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:51,750 not know what a right click on a mouse is or scroll on. Welcome 1486 01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:55,560 to my world or scroll. Yeah, welcome to my world. Yes. Yeah, 1487 01:38:55,650 --> 01:39:01,080 I understand. Yeah, I understand. But, you know, 1488 01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:05,190 people aren't stupid. Yeah. People like to learn. Listeners 1489 01:39:05,190 --> 01:39:10,080 certainly do audiences do. Salty Crayon 1776. Patriot boost. 1490 01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:12,360 Here's little value to help balancing the podcasting to 1491 01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:15,960 point no budget since the Fed has zero motivation to balance 1492 01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:18,330 there's go podcasting. 1493 01:39:18,690 --> 01:39:21,510 Dave Jones: The Fed doesn't have a budget. They just have a it's 1494 01:39:21,510 --> 01:39:23,760 just a blank. They can just write whatever they want. And 1495 01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:27,690 they're called monetizing the debt. 1496 01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:30,960 Adam Curry: That is exactly what it is Jean Everett roadex 2222 1497 01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:34,110 Happy Friday. Happy Friday to you. Todd Cochran has 5000 SATs. 1498 01:39:34,110 --> 01:39:38,280 He says I seriously need a clone go podcasting. I'll give you 1499 01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:44,370 give me that. Well, would you look at this 5000 SATs from pod 1500 01:39:44,370 --> 01:39:45,330 friend Martin. 1501 01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:47,100 Dave Jones: Hey, Martin. 1502 01:39:47,130 --> 01:39:51,450 Adam Curry: He lives he says hello. I think I think I missed 1503 01:39:51,450 --> 01:39:56,880 a show or 10 I've been I've been so extremely busy with life, the 1504 01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:00,120 universe and everything. I hope everyone is doing well. Yes. We 1505 01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,100 miss you Martin. Boy do I would 1506 01:40:02,100 --> 01:40:04,140 Dave Jones: just like to I would just like to talk to Martin on 1507 01:40:04,140 --> 01:40:05,580 the phone and hear about his job and 1508 01:40:05,610 --> 01:40:10,860 Adam Curry: yeah and his marriage and his house and the 1509 01:40:10,860 --> 01:40:13,950 crazy country he lives in and you know all that stuff yeah 1510 01:40:13,950 --> 01:40:17,670 we'd love to know I would love to get happy I saw I saw him pop 1511 01:40:17,670 --> 01:40:19,470 up on the on the Macedon the other day 1512 01:40:20,460 --> 01:40:22,020 Dave Jones: I thought I was seeing I thought I was seeing so 1513 01:40:22,020 --> 01:40:23,670 I had to do it don't make so much someone hacked 1514 01:40:23,670 --> 01:40:24,810 Adam Curry: his account or this can't be 1515 01:40:26,940 --> 01:40:27,300 Unknown: yeah 1516 01:40:29,250 --> 01:40:32,700 Adam Curry: let me see we have that it Yeah, hit the delimiter 1517 01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:35,880 low boosted today very low boosted. Yes, 1518 01:40:35,880 --> 01:40:38,250 Dave Jones: it's very little but since we did as we did as Pe 1519 01:40:38,250 --> 01:40:44,700 files, we have actually two very low paper knowledge as well. We 1520 01:40:44,700 --> 01:40:49,830 have $5 a one off from Truman Gillette. Thank you treatment 1521 01:40:49,860 --> 01:40:54,960 for Stage five bucks. very appreciative. And Kevin bay from 1522 01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:59,220 the podcasting 2.0 Endowment Fund he says this is my monthly 1523 01:40:59,220 --> 01:41:03,000 is $3.54 monthly from the endowment fund I need to grow my 1524 01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:03,660 fund. 1525 01:41:05,400 --> 01:41:08,310 Adam Curry: Grow your show grow your fund Exactly. 1526 01:41:09,450 --> 01:41:11,940 Dave Jones: Todd's here he can tell you how to grow it. We got 1527 01:41:11,940 --> 01:41:18,840 some good guess boosted we guess we got a pot home. I'm assuming 1528 01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:22,050 that's Barry. Yeah, that's gotta be buried in 1000 SATs through 1529 01:41:22,050 --> 01:41:24,960 podcasts. Gary says thanks for listening to about podcasting 1530 01:41:24,990 --> 01:41:28,560 www about podcasting dot show. Great show was Sam guys. 1531 01:41:28,710 --> 01:41:30,690 Adam Curry: Yes, it was good show. Good show. 1532 01:41:32,430 --> 01:41:37,260 Dave Jones: See we got 3045 sets from Sam Sethi Speaking of the 1533 01:41:37,260 --> 01:41:42,000 devil shows up through true fans he says true fan support from 1534 01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:46,800 Episode 176 angel number Thank you Sam. Appreciate it. 1535 01:41:47,820 --> 01:41:54,210 Anonymous boosting everyone see listening our song from last 1536 01:41:54,210 --> 01:41:59,820 week says groovy yeah thank you Groovy is that is that it is 1537 01:41:59,850 --> 01:42:01,380 surely that's not it. 1538 01:42:02,670 --> 01:42:05,010 Adam Curry: Really? That's it? No 1539 01:42:06,330 --> 01:42:07,500 Unknown: that's not right. Can't be 1540 01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:13,200 Dave Jones: Kevin Bay 20,000 SATs through pod verse he says 1541 01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:17,400 some somehow some way 1.2 million SATs pass through my 1542 01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,700 little V for V music podcast sets and sounds since I started 1543 01:42:20,730 --> 01:42:23,880 Wow. I'm absolutely baffled by it all. And I'll spend my 1544 01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:27,030 portion own activitypub education. Well, thank you. 1545 01:42:27,330 --> 01:42:31,530 Appreciate that. He's He's a double helping of Kevin Bay 1546 01:42:31,530 --> 01:42:37,980 today. And we got 3045 from Sam Sethi give us another boost 1547 01:42:38,010 --> 01:42:42,240 there no note from him. And then that's it. Yeah, we got we got 1548 01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:47,850 the delimiter 24,000 SATs from chemistry bloggers saving saving 1549 01:42:47,850 --> 01:42:48,360 the day. 1550 01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:49,650 Unknown: Yes, yes. 1551 01:42:49,650 --> 01:42:50,940 Adam Curry: Thank you CSB. 1552 01:42:51,900 --> 01:42:54,180 Dave Jones: Through fountain he says, How do you Dave and Adam. 1553 01:42:54,660 --> 01:42:58,380 Today I'd like to recommend this podcast to your audience. Join 1554 01:42:58,380 --> 01:43:01,020 Phoenix and phone boy for some healthy happy, higher 1555 01:43:01,020 --> 01:43:04,200 consciousness. With some high tech high jinks on the side. 1556 01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:09,630 Come experience the Lotus effect for yourselves at WWW dot Lotus 1557 01:43:09,630 --> 01:43:12,060 effect dot show. Yo Josie 1558 01:43:12,510 --> 01:43:16,320 Adam Curry: pcsb always on the download. Yo Thank you very 1559 01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:21,690 much. We did just get I see we got it. We got an x boost. Kami. 1560 01:43:21,690 --> 01:43:27,720 Oh, hold on a second. We got two more boosts coming in. striper 1561 01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:34,440 boost 7777 from Steve Wilkinson. Oh, CG works he says we just 1562 01:43:34,440 --> 01:43:38,940 want healthy adds the benefits that this benefits listeners and 1563 01:43:38,940 --> 01:43:42,390 creators I've purchased many things based on trusted 1564 01:43:42,390 --> 01:43:50,190 podcasters a bet. And then under the wire 45,678 SATs from Dred 1565 01:43:50,190 --> 01:43:54,180 Scott he says boost and go podcast a podcast. 1566 01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:01,920 Dave Jones: Drib is a double as a repeat customer this week as 1567 01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:05,400 he came in with our monthlies with $15 from drip. 1568 01:44:06,810 --> 01:44:08,250 Adam Curry: Thank you, man. Thank you so much. 1569 01:44:08,790 --> 01:44:14,580 Dave Jones: We got Shawn McCune $20 See where Matt James 1570 01:44:14,580 --> 01:44:20,610 Sullivan $10 Christopher reamer $10 Jordan Dunnville $10 Michael 1571 01:44:20,610 --> 01:44:27,060 Kimmerer $5.33 Charles current $5 Michael Goggin $5 and con 1572 01:44:27,060 --> 01:44:29,040 glotzbach $5. 1573 01:44:31,440 --> 01:44:33,450 Adam Curry: What a beautiful What a beautiful bunch. Y'all 1574 01:44:33,450 --> 01:44:37,530 are just a beautiful bunch. I really I looked at the tally 1575 01:44:37,530 --> 01:44:42,540 coin real quick. Guess what, then? Absolutely nothing. 1576 01:44:42,810 --> 01:44:45,000 Absolutely nothing from the tally. Did 1577 01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:46,170 Dave Jones: we get any runes, 1578 01:44:47,850 --> 01:44:52,380 Adam Curry: runes? You know, I always my my daughter sometimes 1579 01:44:52,380 --> 01:44:55,050 needs a little help with the rent. You know, she's a social 1580 01:44:55,050 --> 01:44:59,430 worker these days. And so I'm like, like, Yeah, I'll send you 1581 01:44:59,430 --> 01:45:02,280 500 bucks, like $20 fee. 1582 01:45:03,150 --> 01:45:04,380 Dave Jones: Yikes through? 1583 01:45:04,710 --> 01:45:06,990 Adam Curry: Yeah. That was the 1584 01:45:07,020 --> 01:45:09,210 Dave Jones: bit you do debit Bitcoin 1585 01:45:09,210 --> 01:45:12,780 Adam Curry: transfer Yeah, I like this room stuff better stop 1586 01:45:13,920 --> 01:45:16,950 whatever this I mean I'm like, I'm like kid you better get a 1587 01:45:16,950 --> 01:45:19,260 lightning account you better learn how to pay for stuff in 1588 01:45:19,260 --> 01:45:21,240 lightning because this is getting crazy. 1589 01:45:21,810 --> 01:45:26,220 Dave Jones: Speaking of that do we need so I've gotten in touch 1590 01:45:26,220 --> 01:45:33,990 with strike to see if we can get into their API just for no 1591 01:45:33,990 --> 01:45:39,330 specific reason really I just want to try to understand some I 1592 01:45:39,330 --> 01:45:40,830 just want to get get my head around a little bit of 1593 01:45:40,830 --> 01:45:44,070 onboarding, so maybe I can just be better informed about Oh, 1594 01:45:44,070 --> 01:45:49,110 sure. That's always good things around that. Yeah, and I want to 1595 01:45:50,340 --> 01:45:56,430 do we need to look at opening up maybe a set channel to strike 1596 01:45:56,910 --> 01:46:00,360 Adam Curry: we can we can open Well, I mean, yeah, I 1597 01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:02,310 Dave Jones: don't know how they control that. 1598 01:46:04,980 --> 01:46:09,180 Adam Curry: That's a very good question. I'm sure that the lb 1599 01:46:09,180 --> 01:46:11,940 or the breeze boys would know I'm sure they they're all they 1600 01:46:11,940 --> 01:46:20,400 all they all fat pipe each other. may sound weird. I'm 1601 01:46:20,400 --> 01:46:23,730 sorry. I didn't mean to sound weird. Just slightly. 1602 01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:26,070 Unknown: Yeah. Yeah, 1603 01:46:26,370 --> 01:46:29,820 Dave Jones: maybe we need it. Maybe we need the fat pipe on. I 1604 01:46:29,820 --> 01:46:34,350 Adam Curry: did get a little concerned. Over this recent was 1605 01:46:34,350 --> 01:46:36,840 it samurai wallet. Now these guys were clearly doing 1606 01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:39,960 something. They were advertising, like, Hey, you got 1607 01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:42,930 illegal money that you got in Bitcoin, the gray markets and 1608 01:46:42,930 --> 01:46:45,840 black markets will mix it up for you. All right. That's never a 1609 01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:50,820 good idea. Not a good. But the. But there's all kinds of 1610 01:46:51,300 --> 01:46:54,990 government institutions saying hey, you know, the, you're not a 1611 01:46:54,990 --> 01:46:57,150 money transmitter, you don't have a money transmitter 1612 01:46:57,150 --> 01:47:00,930 license, you got to be careful. So I'm just saying, We got to be 1613 01:47:00,930 --> 01:47:01,980 careful with that stuff. 1614 01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:05,190 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's, I kind of want to get my head around 1615 01:47:05,190 --> 01:47:06,690 some of that and make sure that's not 1616 01:47:06,690 --> 01:47:09,420 Adam Curry: really clear, as always, with all this stuff, but 1617 01:47:09,660 --> 01:47:12,810 some of the writing is obvious on the wall that the main thing 1618 01:47:12,810 --> 01:47:17,160 is if you can do it with accountability, and KYC just 1619 01:47:17,160 --> 01:47:21,960 made a mean that your bank should basically be the witches, 1620 01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:25,380 I think is what strike really does. I mean, you you do have a 1621 01:47:25,410 --> 01:47:30,660 some KYC connection when you hook up striker to your bank. 1622 01:47:31,170 --> 01:47:32,070 You know, it's like, yeah, you 1623 01:47:32,070 --> 01:47:35,010 Dave Jones: have your walkie strike. KYC is you I mean, you 1624 01:47:35,010 --> 01:47:36,660 have to give them the right info. 1625 01:47:36,690 --> 01:47:39,630 Adam Curry: So you know, I think that that's just going to be a 1626 01:47:39,630 --> 01:47:44,490 given in our future. And the, you know, the idea of anonymous 1627 01:47:44,490 --> 01:47:48,090 money in this world is going to be very, very difficult. Unless 1628 01:47:48,090 --> 01:47:50,760 everyone's on a Bitcoin standard. You know, it's like we 1629 01:47:50,760 --> 01:47:53,940 only buy and sell stuff in Bitcoin, which I do in many 1630 01:47:53,940 --> 01:47:58,980 respects, for lots of stuff. But it's just kind of going to be a 1631 01:47:58,980 --> 01:48:00,960 fact of life. I don't think we can get around it. 1632 01:48:01,770 --> 01:48:04,470 Dave Jones: While I love Rob, I can I can say this about Rob 1633 01:48:04,470 --> 01:48:05,640 because he doesn't listen to the show. 1634 01:48:07,290 --> 01:48:09,930 Unknown: Love to the show. Really? 1635 01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:12,090 Dave Jones: Yeah. He said he doesn't listen to the show. He 1636 01:48:12,090 --> 01:48:14,790 said. He said, Yeah, okay. Kay said occasionally 1637 01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:17,970 Adam Curry: haters, haters over there. Yeah. Well, 1638 01:48:18,780 --> 01:48:23,370 Dave Jones: he told Todd. He told Todd that Bitcoin was 1639 01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:27,540 illegal in India and this is not true. Illegal is not illegal in 1640 01:48:27,540 --> 01:48:33,330 India. Illegal is India. This is fake news. It's their bank. 1641 01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:37,650 Banks over there do heavy KYC on crypto stuff, but it's not 1642 01:48:37,650 --> 01:48:41,550 illegal. It's not any more illegal than it is in the US or 1643 01:48:41,550 --> 01:48:42,060 the UK. 1644 01:48:43,590 --> 01:48:48,210 Adam Curry: Yeah. That's right. I put Rob's most recent article 1645 01:48:48,210 --> 01:48:52,290 in the show notes. Did you Wow. Because I thought the title was 1646 01:48:52,290 --> 01:48:56,010 just show notes worthy. is adding video the future of 1647 01:48:56,010 --> 01:48:58,290 successful podcasting strategy. 1648 01:48:59,310 --> 01:49:00,870 Dave Jones: Oh, he didn't put that in the show notes. Of 1649 01:49:00,870 --> 01:49:04,230 Adam Curry: course I do. Of course. Oh, because you know, 1650 01:49:04,260 --> 01:49:08,610 enhances your monetization potential. It first it 1651 01:49:08,610 --> 01:49:11,940 personalizes and it personalization and complexity 1652 01:49:11,940 --> 01:49:15,510 and storytelling, video podcasts offer a rich platform for 1653 01:49:15,510 --> 01:49:19,710 storytelling. You can have synergy with social media 1654 01:49:19,710 --> 01:49:21,150 trends. I'm reading it. Yes. 1655 01:49:21,930 --> 01:49:24,750 Dave Jones: Can you please play the Katherine Mark lips again 1656 01:49:24,750 --> 01:49:25,830 because there's more interesting. 1657 01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:33,450 Adam Curry: I appreciate Rob. I appreciate it, but I just don't 1658 01:49:33,450 --> 01:49:35,580 see it. No, 1659 01:49:35,940 --> 01:49:36,750 Dave Jones: I hadn't. 1660 01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:41,880 Adam Curry: I just don't see. I just don't see it. Wow. Okay. So 1661 01:49:41,910 --> 01:49:45,660 I, again, this was one of those board meetings where we got in 1662 01:49:45,660 --> 01:49:49,530 deep and, and I feel like we did get one step forward, maybe two 1663 01:49:49,530 --> 01:49:53,160 steps back but it sounds like you're going to be doing some 1664 01:49:53,160 --> 01:49:55,830 deep dives and we're going to come up with some more stuff and 1665 01:49:55,980 --> 01:50:00,870 I look forward to lots of Convos on the past I'd cast index dot 1666 01:50:00,870 --> 01:50:04,770 social. Everybody likes to weigh in. I love that. I love that. 1667 01:50:05,550 --> 01:50:07,830 Yeah, we're a little area there. 1668 01:50:08,340 --> 01:50:10,200 Dave Jones: Got some more namespace stuff to do this week 1669 01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:13,530 and hopefully I'll have some. Hopefully I'm going to I'm going 1670 01:50:13,530 --> 01:50:17,220 to have a better fleshed out idea about open podcast because 1671 01:50:17,220 --> 01:50:19,650 I want to talk about that primarily next week. Okay. 1672 01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:23,040 Adam Curry: Do we have a guest next week? Oh, good. Okay. Just 1673 01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:29,040 you and me baby. Just the two of us just to say brother had 1674 01:50:29,040 --> 01:50:32,760 yourself a great weekend. All right, everybody. Thank you for 1675 01:50:32,760 --> 01:50:35,190 being here in the board meeting. We'll be back next week Friday. 1676 01:50:35,190 --> 01:50:35,790 See you then. 1677 01:50:52,230 --> 01:50:56,790 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast 1678 01:50:56,790 --> 01:51:00,990 index.org For more information, go podcast 1679 01:51:02,520 --> 01:51:04,170 Dave Jones: so that we can do hard stuff