1 00:00:00,539 --> 00:00:06,119 podcasting 2.0 for December 21 2020, Episode 17 will pop 2 00:00:06,119 --> 00:00:06,899 into being 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:13,620 What did you say 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,940 when Evan introduced all become clear with what I meant by that 5 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:25,860 it is it's Christmas I guess. Yeah like we're really doing 6 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,190 this on Christmas day you know we are I'm Adam Curry here in 7 00:00:29,190 --> 00:00:32,700 Austin Texas and Now may I introduce to you the man who 8 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:36,600 takes people so seriously he wrote the person tag for the 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:37,950 namespace mystery 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:45,360 Merry Christmas 11 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:49,170 oh wait I have to come totally prepared today. 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:55,740 Oh wow. That is so festive. Wonderful. Yes. Makes me happy. 13 00:00:55,860 --> 00:00:58,740 This is our little Christmas surprise to everybody who's 14 00:00:58,740 --> 00:01:02,130 worked so hard. Hi guys. Everyone who's worked so hard 15 00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:08,580 these past podcasting 2.0 this is this is our gift to you a 16 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:11,940 little Christmas you know all the gifts have been open your 17 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:15,300 uncle's falling asleep on the couch and so now you want to 18 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:17,970 just slide off and listen to something 19 00:01:18,689 --> 00:01:21,179 here and has COVID sorry 20 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:24,450 who's uplifting now 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,850 sorry sorry this i mean i i get i did get you something actually 22 00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:30,630 I get you to think 23 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:32,130 oh I did 24 00:01:32,130 --> 00:01:37,200 I made them myself. Okay their home their homemade one is the 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,600 person tag. Yes. And it's the season 26 00:01:39,870 --> 00:01:45,630 Oh no, I didn't even know about the season tag. Merry Christmas 27 00:01:45,630 --> 00:01:50,010 everybody I read it I read the the person tag and I think it's 28 00:01:50,010 --> 00:01:50,820 fantastic. 29 00:01:52,890 --> 00:01:58,980 The gate the gate to happiness is self compassion that's what 30 00:01:58,980 --> 00:02:01,680 my that's what my tea bags I just made a cup of tea and 31 00:02:04,380 --> 00:02:09,570 it's so true. It's so true. So true. Wow. 32 00:02:09,599 --> 00:02:12,029 Yeah. What's going on this Christmas for you for you? Are 33 00:02:12,029 --> 00:02:15,269 you yo get family or anything just 34 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,960 not just my stepdaughter Elise. She's over. So she's three of 35 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,980 us. My daughter's in Rotterdam, mother stepdaughters in Chicago. 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:29,070 And Tina and I and then and all the family is in either Indiana 37 00:02:29,070 --> 00:02:34,200 or Chicago. Or as I said in Rotterdam, so it's just the two 38 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,980 of us and then the stepdaughter is moving to New York in 39 00:02:38,010 --> 00:02:41,970 January. And I don't think I can wait any longer for 40 00:02:41,970 --> 00:02:47,190 grandchildren. So we'll probably get a dog. completed. 41 00:02:48,389 --> 00:02:50,279 Same thing. Yeah. Well, 42 00:02:51,060 --> 00:02:55,710 at least you can control the mess now. Yes. The financial 43 00:02:55,710 --> 00:02:57,450 mess is kind of a known factor. 44 00:02:57,810 --> 00:03:01,020 Now isn't moving to New York in January. That's it. That's 45 00:03:01,020 --> 00:03:01,470 called 46 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,410 moving to New York during a COVID lockdown. I mean, 47 00:03:04,410 --> 00:03:05,760 that's what I'm saying. Yeah. 48 00:03:06,150 --> 00:03:08,910 Yeah, this did not go without some interesting conversation. 49 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:12,630 For those of you who would like to catch up and everything 50 00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:16,500 that's happening here, podcasting 2.0 we have a cool 51 00:03:17,370 --> 00:03:20,850 web forward new podcast apps.com it takes you to podcasts 52 00:03:20,850 --> 00:03:25,080 index.org apps page. And if you want to see any of the stuff 53 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,980 that we talked about on on the show in action, that's the place 54 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:34,200 to find it. The holsters the all the categories of everything 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,810 that that has been built. And I wish I could have gotten two 56 00:03:39,810 --> 00:03:46,080 things this past week. I know no one picked up my podcasting 2.0 57 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,600 certification tag that I wanted. 58 00:03:50,310 --> 00:03:54,300 We get a badge. We get a badge for it. Oh, it was I didn't see 59 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:58,410 the badge. No, no, no, this is this is not for us. This is for 60 00:03:58,410 --> 00:04:03,630 from us. This is we get it we get a badge from podcast 61 00:04:03,630 --> 00:04:04,470 taxonomy. 62 00:04:04,979 --> 00:04:08,849 Oh, we got a badge on their website. Yeah, we did. Yeah, 63 00:04:08,849 --> 00:04:09,929 we're gonna we can put this 64 00:04:09,930 --> 00:04:11,400 on our on our website. Yes. 65 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:16,890 That links back. Yeah. You better put that in react.js and 66 00:04:16,890 --> 00:04:17,850 make that happen. 67 00:04:18,300 --> 00:04:24,390 Wait, man, we were so we like totally came in. Yeah, what do 68 00:04:24,390 --> 00:04:27,870 you call that we like, subverted that whole thing. Because they 69 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:30,870 they've been working on this taxonomy thing for months and 70 00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:33,390 months. And then we can 71 00:04:33,990 --> 00:04:37,110 avert it. We we just gave it a home. 72 00:04:37,590 --> 00:04:40,590 What else? Well, true. I mean, I do come in like three like, like 73 00:04:40,650 --> 00:04:43,740 two months ago. And it's like, oh, pockets, that you're an 74 00:04:43,740 --> 00:04:47,010 equal partner and all thanks for your help. It's like there's 75 00:04:47,010 --> 00:04:48,960 been people working on this thing for years and we're you 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,000 know, we just show up like a bunch of 77 00:04:51,390 --> 00:04:56,760 cowboys first podcast, boys. Well, that's the way I think 78 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,360 we're viewed. By the way when I see my my podcast, 2.0 79 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,790 certification log I want something that people can put on 80 00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:06,810 their on the app. This is podcasting. 2.0 certified comm 81 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:07,620 like a stamp. 82 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:11,250 It's like when it says the but my keyboard I don't know if you 83 00:05:11,250 --> 00:05:15,180 can hear this. Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, you know, it's like, 84 00:05:15,270 --> 00:05:18,540 it's a really old mechanical keyboard from like, the early 85 00:05:18,540 --> 00:05:19,020 90s. 86 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:21,540 With the deep key travel. 87 00:05:21,750 --> 00:05:24,870 No, yeah. And it's got key if you flip it over on the bottom 88 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:28,560 is it's a it's got a big sticker on it that says it's Novell 89 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:29,490 NetWare tested. 90 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,440 And it has the color of what hearing aids used to look like. 91 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:37,020 The geriatric gray or brown 92 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:44,220 colored. Yep, it's pretty much, man. That's, that's, yeah, we 93 00:05:44,220 --> 00:05:45,360 need that badge we need. 94 00:05:45,570 --> 00:05:49,770 We need the badge, slap it on there being the badge. But as we 95 00:05:49,770 --> 00:05:52,980 were kind of viewed as Cowboys, and I think you might have had a 96 00:05:52,980 --> 00:05:57,330 chance to listen to it the most recent episode of The Todd and 97 00:05:57,330 --> 00:06:00,180 Rob show the new media show. Holy moly. 98 00:06:01,740 --> 00:06:05,550 I haven't. I was, oh, that was like finishing the previous one. 99 00:06:05,550 --> 00:06:06,660 I haven't even heard that one yet. 100 00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:12,360 Oh, my God, the whole show is about us. The whole show about 101 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:13,680 how fabulous we are. 102 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:15,570 I like those 103 00:06:15,570 --> 00:06:17,970 guys a lot. Well, there's a number. 104 00:06:19,380 --> 00:06:24,300 No, the title of the show is the podcast index gathers steam or 105 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:28,500 something like that. And it's all about how we came in. And 106 00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:31,290 and we just said, EFF it, and we're going to go for it and the 107 00:06:31,290 --> 00:06:34,650 stuff that I mean, no, of course it's true. These are all tags 108 00:06:34,650 --> 00:06:37,110 that they've worked on for a decade, that I don't think we 109 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:40,170 came up with anything. Well, the value tag is new and specific to 110 00:06:40,530 --> 00:06:45,750 us. But there's been ideas like this for a long time. And I 111 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:48,600 think they both realize that, oh, wait a minute, you come in 112 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,300 as an independent party and you just say fuck it, we're gonna 113 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:56,250 go, then you can actually get it done. And they recognize that we 114 00:06:56,250 --> 00:07:02,520 have buzzsprout to the degree that now I knew this last 115 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:08,640 Friday. I wanted to clear it with Rob. first before we 116 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,290 mentioned it, but he mentioned it on the new media show. Lipson 117 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:18,450 hitting Yes. libsyn is going to support the podcast 2.0 tags. 118 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:22,260 I mean, 119 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:26,550 I got a Christmas present. present to me. I mean, 120 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:31,620 now we're cooking with gas, as you would say. Yeah. This is 121 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:37,230 fantastic. I mean, so now we can really push stuff ahead. And 122 00:07:37,230 --> 00:07:38,820 they were you know, they were taught by the way. 123 00:07:40,020 --> 00:07:44,160 pod bean will be next. You go you're coming, you're coming to 124 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,300 the dark side beam 125 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:51,450 beam will be next. We're bringing you in pod bean. And 126 00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:55,770 what a power what a power we'll have as a force man. Everyone 127 00:07:55,830 --> 00:07:59,760 will love these tags. And they'll be there for anybody to 128 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,240 use and you watch. Apple is going to have to adopt at least 129 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,300 some of them that mean the season tag. That's our gift to 130 00:08:06,330 --> 00:08:10,590 them. Their customer NPR wants that. We get this again. Yes. 131 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,740 Yeah, that's a bunch of fuckers. Well, I 132 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:16,320 put that in there. Put that in there today. And that mean it 133 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,160 was low hanging fruit. So we finalized that thing and Merry 134 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,830 Christmas MPR gifts going around all over 135 00:08:22,829 --> 00:08:25,979 the place. It's the season man. It's the time is the time 136 00:08:25,979 --> 00:08:28,229 forgiving. It's beautiful. 137 00:08:28,620 --> 00:08:31,800 Man. I can't believe I have to listen to that have not not 138 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,120 finished the previous one yet. 139 00:08:33,180 --> 00:08:37,110 It was a real good insight into how we've been viewed from the 140 00:08:37,110 --> 00:08:41,610 outside. Which I'm sure that it never really I've never really 141 00:08:41,610 --> 00:08:44,970 stopped to think about it but I'm sure that there were plenty 142 00:08:44,970 --> 00:08:47,340 of people going well why don't we just wait until they go away? 143 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:50,670 Because we've seen shit like this start this way so those 144 00:08:50,670 --> 00:08:53,250 guys give up and then we can move on and not have to worry 145 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:55,710 about it. And it's completely understandable. 146 00:08:56,070 --> 00:08:58,710 Absolutely yes I do the same thing. 147 00:08:58,770 --> 00:09:01,980 Yeah, well of course it's like a like a Kickstarter. You know you 148 00:09:01,980 --> 00:09:05,220 get burned a couple times like yeah, wait, let me see you ship 149 00:09:05,220 --> 00:09:08,370 something first. And then I'll get I'll buy on the open market. 150 00:09:09,030 --> 00:09:12,180 Yeah, well, I mean, that basically was our first board 151 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:14,100 meeting was effortless dude. 152 00:09:14,310 --> 00:09:17,880 Yeah, no, no without it without a doubt this has been a fly by 153 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,000 the seat of the pants operation but it's not that we and we 154 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,640 don't mention Eric the shoe enough. I don't know if he wants 155 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:32,100 us to use his last name. I don't have to ask him. So Eric's a 156 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:36,240 partner that podcast introduces Bitcoin lightning node address. 157 00:09:37,890 --> 00:09:44,610 Just read that says this is who this guy is. Exactly. Yeah, we 158 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,720 could just screw it. Let's just do this. And we but we do have 159 00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:52,590 experience in our in our individual areas. And now it's 160 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:57,510 more of like an A team situation where we just bring together 161 00:09:57,510 --> 00:10:00,780 some some good talent and we all fit in the van. And we're good 162 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:01,200 to go. 163 00:10:01,890 --> 00:10:02,850 I'll fit in the van 164 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,800 fit in the van. But 165 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:10,590 who am I? Who am I? Am I like okay you're obviously Mr. T. No 166 00:10:10,590 --> 00:10:11,760 no yeah me like 167 00:10:13,139 --> 00:10:16,679 I'm face at least I'm facing I might be Hannibal maybe I have 168 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,979 too many of animals. Yeah, you're handsome but i think i 169 00:10:19,979 --> 00:10:21,509 think you would be more 170 00:10:23,550 --> 00:10:24,720 oh my god Murdock 171 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:29,400 Murdock Murdock crazy crazy mecanica yeah as you Dave. 172 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:31,110 Sangha 173 00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:34,530 Yes man but at least we don't have to figure out who would be 174 00:10:34,530 --> 00:10:42,690 ginger and who would be Marianne I'm the special Christmas 175 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:45,960 episode let me cue up the the sleigh bells again we have a 176 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,300 guest and this is so we have your we have your best interests 177 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,090 at heart we're just going to chat a little bit and of course 178 00:10:54,090 --> 00:10:58,680 the left tons of news in the in the new year the next show who 179 00:10:58,710 --> 00:11:03,240 our guest today I feel deserves a lot more credit than he's 180 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,530 received for the success of podcasting 2.0 Not only is the 181 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:11,250 editor of pod news, he's the host of pod land which is I 182 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:16,230 quote a podcast about podcasting. I read him every day 183 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:19,680 and since he launched pod land, I listened to him every day, 184 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,160 Dave, I think you do the same. He's kind of presents the the 185 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,080 daily Bible for for the industry, also known as the 186 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,380 podcasting space, ladies and gentlemen from down under where 187 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:33,840 it's tomorrow, James Cridland. 188 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,150 Thank you so much. 189 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:40,320 That was weaker that was weaker than my intro. James. 190 00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:44,130 I worked on that. No, no, 191 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:45,300 no. 192 00:11:47,490 --> 00:11:49,800 Come on. You guys are nerds. I know what to expect from y'all. 193 00:11:49,830 --> 00:11:51,720 Yeah, that's what it is. 194 00:11:52,290 --> 00:11:52,920 What do you do? 195 00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:54,540 Yeah. 196 00:11:54,749 --> 00:11:56,399 So it's beyond. Thank you. 197 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,770 Yeah. And James, thank you, because you were you jumped into 198 00:12:01,770 --> 00:12:06,090 podcast index the project very soon. I think you immediately 199 00:12:06,090 --> 00:12:10,260 recognized what we were attempting to do. You come with 200 00:12:10,260 --> 00:12:14,580 your own credibility. But also you've, you have an interesting 201 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:20,430 role. Where on one hand, you're a that you run a business, which 202 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:24,870 is delivering the latest news information and analysis on 203 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:29,880 podcasting as a whole. On the other hand, you also contribute 204 00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:35,010 to in no small way, I mean, to namespace descriptions and 205 00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:40,650 definitions. There's a lot of, I would say, technical policy that 206 00:12:40,650 --> 00:12:44,760 you're involved in. What do you consider yourself? Because this 207 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,600 is I think it's any journalist would say, Well, he can't be a 208 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,210 journalist, if he's working on it. If he's working on this 209 00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:55,080 stuff himself, I'm doing my journalist voice here. yet. It 210 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,210 seems very comfortable to everybody, you know, and yeah, I 211 00:12:57,210 --> 00:12:59,880 mean, you're also taking money from the industry for your ads 212 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,510 to keep the keep it running, which to me is kind of another 213 00:13:03,510 --> 00:13:07,500 version of value for value. I mean, it's all within the all 214 00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:10,200 within the ecosystem. So it's very much appreciated what 215 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,050 you've done so far, and what you do. And yeah, what you consider 216 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:15,930 yourself is a big question. Well, thank 217 00:13:15,930 --> 00:13:19,230 you. I yeah, I mean, it's, it's an interesting one, I guess I 218 00:13:19,230 --> 00:13:24,660 consider myself, somebody who really enjoys podcasting really 219 00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:29,970 enjoys the technical side, as well as the creative side. And I 220 00:13:29,970 --> 00:13:34,950 guess one of the things that fun is, you know, I'm a writer by 221 00:13:34,950 --> 00:13:37,560 trade, I learned to write radio commercials a long, long time 222 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:42,450 ago. But I'm all I also do the tech stuff. So I've worked for a 223 00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:47,190 bunch of radio broadcasters, actually, and done a lot of the 224 00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:50,400 coding behind the scenes. So there's a good sort of mix 225 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,760 there, of things that I can hopefully bring. And I think one 226 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,300 of the things that excited me about the podcast index, was 227 00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:01,620 just being able to see there being a group of people that 228 00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:05,640 wanted the best for the industry, and wasn't there just 229 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,500 to sell their own company, and to, you know, to just sort of, 230 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:13,680 you know, hide, hide away behind that sort of thing. So actually, 231 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,670 just wanting the best wanting to move on wanting to innovate was 232 00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:21,030 something that I felt wow, this is really cool. And if, if 233 00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:23,880 people get behind this, then that should be a fantastic 234 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,230 thing. The fact that you now have 100,000 podcasts, which is 235 00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:34,170 using some aspect of the podcast index namespace is just really 236 00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:34,650 good news. 237 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:39,720 Yeah, that, I think, so I was looking in the database, and you 238 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:45,150 are the ninth person to sign up for a developer account. So 239 00:14:45,330 --> 00:14:50,490 that's out of almost 1000 accounts. So you the first eight 240 00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:54,540 of which are different versions of me. So you're, you're almost 241 00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:57,090 literally the very first person to sign up for a developer 242 00:14:57,090 --> 00:15:00,000 account. And it was before you started using it before we even 243 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,000 Did our squishy launch. I mean, like, you're using it like a 244 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,340 week before anybody even knew it existed? I 245 00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:08,280 think he has. He has keys before. I did. He did. 246 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,550 And so I was like, so you emailed me, like a couple of 247 00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:17,220 days before and I was doing some work on the stuff and had stuff 248 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,430 stuff down. You'd like, Hey, man, your stuff down. Hey, I 249 00:15:20,430 --> 00:15:22,230 hope you know that. And you know, I mean, like you were 250 00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:25,080 actually troubleshooting before we even went live with this 251 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,120 thing. So yeah, you are definitely. 252 00:15:28,050 --> 00:15:28,890 I know, watching me. 253 00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:32,460 I know what I call you. I know what I call you. You're the Dick 254 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:36,780 Clark of podcasting. Because, like, somehow, somehow you're 255 00:15:36,780 --> 00:15:42,150 like, you were doing radio in the 80s. And you're still in 256 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:44,460 you're doing podcasting today, but you don't look like you're a 257 00:15:44,460 --> 00:15:45,630 day over. 40 Yeah. 258 00:15:47,820 --> 00:15:49,080 American Teenager? 259 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:52,620 Yeah, that's that's kind of it was I mean, I was doing radio in 260 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:58,230 the 80s. Yes. But in the very late 1980s. Okay, so yeah, but 261 00:15:58,590 --> 00:16:01,530 yeah, you're right. No, it's, it's, it's been really fun. And 262 00:16:01,530 --> 00:16:05,460 I think you know, what, what's been lovely is seeing, you know, 263 00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:11,010 seeing the things that makes some of radio really good. Also 264 00:16:11,010 --> 00:16:14,910 working in the podcasting sphere, as well of just that, 265 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:17,910 you know, that relationship that you can have with your audience, 266 00:16:18,420 --> 00:16:21,900 the relationship that you can have with, you know, a random 267 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:25,380 stranger talking into your ears. That's a fantastic thing. And 268 00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:29,250 there's a lot a lot of things that go together with that, and 269 00:16:29,250 --> 00:16:33,060 a lot of things which are, you know, which some people find 270 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:35,760 really weird. Some people look at Radio and go, but they're the 271 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,400 baddies, aren't they? They're the they're the gatekeepers, and 272 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,800 we don't want to be involved with those. Well, you know, 273 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,980 actually, I think that there's a lot of shared experience there, 274 00:16:43,980 --> 00:16:47,790 which we can all use in podcasting, and in radio, as 275 00:16:47,790 --> 00:16:48,030 well. 276 00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:51,210 People always say, Hey, man, how did you learn how to make make 277 00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:58,890 it sound so good? And I say 40 years of practice? Exactly. It 278 00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:03,060 is really what it is. It's 40 years practice. I can publish 279 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:03,390 all my 280 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:07,740 policy. Yeah, yeah, you can buy all of the all of the equipment 281 00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:11,040 that you want. But actually, you you do also need to have that 282 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,150 skill, to learn how to do things to learn how to use a microphone 283 00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:18,300 to use how to how to use a compressor, and all of that kind 284 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:22,290 of stuff. There's a lot of skill, which isn't just going 285 00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:25,650 out and buying a new gadget, a new cloud lifter, or a new, you 286 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:26,850 know, USB interface. 287 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:29,910 On the other hand, what is and I think I've said this before, 288 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:34,410 what always has enamored me is kind of the unprofessional 289 00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:37,980 crappy sounding stuff to that it doesn't really bother me if it's 290 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:43,020 something that is if the contents there, it kind of adds 291 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:47,310 to it sometimes for me, and I see it more as a whole, you 292 00:17:47,310 --> 00:17:50,190 know, I'm very much to theater of the mind. So if I'm hearing 293 00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:55,170 your boomy room, I'm gonna build a MindScape around that, and 294 00:17:55,170 --> 00:17:57,600 I'll get used to it. And that may not be my preferred way, and 295 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,970 it's not going to be the best for walking the dog cuz I'm 296 00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:04,140 gonna have time difficult time hearing you, perhaps. But I kind 297 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:05,820 of like all the differences that are 298 00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:10,140 out there. He's kind of like the project of you know, of your 299 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,610 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 300 00:18:14,730 --> 00:18:17,550 I I completely agree with that. And I think that there's a lot 301 00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:21,270 of, there's a lot of over polish, sometimes it is 302 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:23,040 sometimes not even stuff like 303 00:18:24,750 --> 00:18:27,150 You have been listening to podcasting. 304 00:18:30,450 --> 00:18:31,140 For more. 305 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:41,220 Wow, that's fantastic. So yeah, I think, you know, all of that 306 00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:44,910 polish is lovely and fine, and works in a lot of different 307 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:49,500 places. But also, you know, it is actually quite nice to hear 308 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:53,340 real people. And I think that's one of the difficulties of some 309 00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:56,100 of the podcasts that you hear certainly some of the radio that 310 00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:59,280 you hear right now is that they've taken the humanity out 311 00:18:59,310 --> 00:19:04,680 of it. And it's just something which is so totally, so totally 312 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,730 polished and professional. And you know, there's no real human 313 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:11,310 connection there anymore. And I think that's a big mistake. 314 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,530 I agree so much. I also come from radio, as you know, and 315 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,650 pretty much the interactive gateway we had was the phone 316 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:23,400 line, which was typically utilized for maybe trolling for 317 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,940 a date on a Friday night if you're doing a later shift or 318 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:33,060 you just want $100 budget a radio station Yeah, that's the 319 00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:36,930 kind of stuff that was the interactivity or and this part I 320 00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:42,840 think does carry over very well. live shows live remote broadcast 321 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,100 that carries over very well in podcasting. Surprisingly, well 322 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:52,080 actually, if you look at pod save, was it pod save the 323 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,250 country what is the 324 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:54,450 pod save America pod save 325 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:59,970 America, thank you to my new pod words, pod save America who went 326 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,140 on tour and did their show on stage and got people to buy 327 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:07,020 tickets to come in. I mean, these these are things that were 328 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:11,340 not possible before and the real beauty of this, which is if you 329 00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:15,660 look at the, the genesis of podcasting, we just bought all 330 00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:20,340 this time. That's what we have. We have all this time and it's 331 00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:24,480 it's our time to create it. And it's the other the consumption 332 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,980 side, the reception side is your time to place it into your life. 333 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,750 That's why it wins. 334 00:20:31,860 --> 00:20:34,980 Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and just the connection with the 335 00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:39,810 audience as well as the is the really big thing here. I mean, I 336 00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:43,650 remember so I when I was on on the radio a long long time ago, 337 00:20:43,650 --> 00:20:47,280 we got a fax machine. Adam, this was the most exciting thing. 338 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:55,890 Yeah, this was the most exciting stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was. 339 00:20:56,580 --> 00:21:00,450 That was that was fantastic fun and and just like giving people 340 00:21:00,450 --> 00:21:05,850 the tools to communicate and to make the thing that you are 341 00:21:05,850 --> 00:21:08,760 working on better. And there's and that's where I see quite a 342 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,700 lot of the parallels in between what what was going on there 343 00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:15,060 with you know, people sending voice messages and sometimes 344 00:21:15,090 --> 00:21:19,830 emails into the studio and people sending fax faxes in. And 345 00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:24,810 now with what you're doing with, with chapters, with community 346 00:21:24,810 --> 00:21:28,860 driven chapters and stuff like that, all of that stuff is very, 347 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:29,580 very similar. 348 00:21:29,910 --> 00:21:33,660 Did you ever get your Sphinx app running for the podcasting 2.0 349 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:36,510 stuff with the with the lightning payments? 350 00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:39,120 I haven't got my Sphinx app working yet. 351 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:42,540 No, it wouldn't you call yourself a newsman Shame on you. 352 00:21:42,540 --> 00:21:43,020 Sorry. 353 00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:45,570 One of one of the things that I have real difficulty 354 00:21:45,570 --> 00:21:49,260 understanding is this whole cryptocurrency and and all of 355 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:52,980 that I understand, understand how the blockchain works. But 356 00:21:53,010 --> 00:21:57,180 everything else just confuses my little head. Yeah, I'm waiting 357 00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:58,470 for somebody to write it down. 358 00:21:58,709 --> 00:22:01,649 No, no, no, no, that's, that's, that's incorrect. What What you 359 00:22:01,649 --> 00:22:04,409 need is an app that will be clear from day one, and you 360 00:22:04,409 --> 00:22:07,589 understand what's happening, and no manual should be necessary. 361 00:22:08,009 --> 00:22:12,449 The reason I bring it up is that experience, I think, is a 362 00:22:12,449 --> 00:22:17,789 version of the future of podcasting, where they're each 363 00:22:17,849 --> 00:22:22,409 podcast has its own little area, and that area is built right 364 00:22:22,409 --> 00:22:27,419 into the player is a chat room. And the beauty of it is that you 365 00:22:27,419 --> 00:22:30,659 can hit a boost button, which is the equivalent of a like or 366 00:22:30,659 --> 00:22:35,279 tapping hearts on a on a periscope video or Instagram 367 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:41,489 Live. And but that is sending extra satoshis extra money. And 368 00:22:41,489 --> 00:22:44,669 the podcaster can see at what point that was done. So they 369 00:22:44,669 --> 00:22:48,689 know where the extra kudos attaboys, etc, is coming in 370 00:22:48,689 --> 00:22:55,349 from. But really the just the interaction in the chat room, by 371 00:22:55,349 --> 00:22:59,189 itself is phenomenal. And it's your my dream, as you may have 372 00:22:59,189 --> 00:23:04,349 heard, is to have these types of features work inter app. And so 373 00:23:04,349 --> 00:23:07,769 yes, and that's why I'm so excited about possibilities of 374 00:23:07,769 --> 00:23:13,559 using lightning, specifically, but even if, if that doesn't 375 00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:15,389 happen, you know, we've already looked at a whole bunch of 376 00:23:15,389 --> 00:23:18,749 different things of doing that. And it's just the creativity of 377 00:23:18,749 --> 00:23:21,419 the group man, that that's what's driving it all for you. 378 00:23:22,199 --> 00:23:25,379 And you're a big No, well, thank 379 00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:29,880 you. Thank you. But no, I mean, you know, the, I used to say, so 380 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,700 I worked at the BBC for two years. And I got into awful 381 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:37,260 trouble one day, because I said that my programmers, my software 382 00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:40,530 developers, were just as creative as some of the people 383 00:23:40,530 --> 00:23:44,580 in the programming team. You know, I'm going, going working, 384 00:23:44,730 --> 00:23:49,860 working for radio and for TV, and I was, I was taken aside 385 00:23:49,860 --> 00:23:53,190 until that that was, that was the most ridiculous thing that 386 00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:55,980 anybody could still believe it right now. 387 00:23:56,010 --> 00:23:58,980 Was this in the days of the Dutch guy who was running the AI 388 00:23:58,980 --> 00:23:59,520 player? 389 00:24:01,410 --> 00:24:04,230 Well, funnily enough, it was Eric and Eric, lovely, lovely 390 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:04,680 guy. 391 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,950 Are you just sucking up to him now? Or you mean that? No, I 392 00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:10,860 know him really well. I know him extremely well. And I always 393 00:24:10,860 --> 00:24:14,280 give a crap about everything. He was the CEO of blockbuster. 394 00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:18,420 Did you know before he went to Philips not know that Yeah. 395 00:24:18,420 --> 00:24:22,410 Before he went to film before he went to the BBC. He was he took 396 00:24:22,410 --> 00:24:24,780 a job and he was working for I think he was working for 397 00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:28,260 Microsoft first in the Netherlands, then yes. And he 398 00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:30,330 then was working in Silicon Valley and then 399 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,760 wound up working for Windows Media Player. That's right, 400 00:24:32,790 --> 00:24:36,420 right. And then he wound up taking a gig to try and turn 401 00:24:36,420 --> 00:24:41,010 around Blockbuster Video, as Netflix was already a thing. And 402 00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:46,230 Eric, is his last name, the beautiful guys, I should reach 403 00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:46,650 out to him. 404 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,300 Great. He's great. He joined he joined the BBC at the same time 405 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:55,980 as I joined. And so therefore, it was all Eric huggers, who we 406 00:24:55,980 --> 00:24:59,670 called him huggers, Eric, Eric huggers, blah, blah, blah, this 407 00:24:59,670 --> 00:25:02,520 that and Here's a photograph of Eric huggers. Right at the 408 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,880 bottom of this press release was Oh, and James Cribbins also 409 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,210 joined. 410 00:25:08,099 --> 00:25:09,239 Thanks so much for that. 411 00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:19,590 Now, Eric was a great guy. And, you know, and and so he, he did 412 00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:22,260 a lot of unblocking of things like the AI player to get that 413 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:23,640 working. He said, it was a 414 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,280 really hard time, he said the politics were crazy. 415 00:25:26,699 --> 00:25:30,419 Oh, the politics was just insane. And so Eric was kind of 416 00:25:30,419 --> 00:25:34,319 my boss, but not my boss. And in typical BBC fashion, I had two 417 00:25:34,319 --> 00:25:36,509 bosses, and one of them has a dotted line, and one of them 418 00:25:36,509 --> 00:25:39,149 didn't have a dotted line. And then there was another with a 419 00:25:39,389 --> 00:25:44,129 wavy line. And, you know, and all that going on. But yeah, you 420 00:25:44,129 --> 00:25:48,959 know, and and, you know, it was it was the best of times, it was 421 00:25:48,959 --> 00:25:53,399 the worst of times. Working with Eric was fantastic, explained 422 00:25:53,399 --> 00:25:53,489 the 423 00:25:53,490 --> 00:25:54,270 dotted line. 424 00:25:55,710 --> 00:26:02,640 Oh, so, um, I think so I had a manager who, you know, who would 425 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,030 be my boss, who I would go and ask things like, you know, can I 426 00:26:06,030 --> 00:26:09,480 have next Monday off, please. And then I had him. And then I 427 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,440 had another manager, who would be in charge of telling me what 428 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,090 it is that I should be doing. 429 00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:16,080 Ah. 430 00:26:17,850 --> 00:26:21,060 And then I had another manager, by the way, who was also in 431 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:23,790 charge of telling me what it is that I should be doing. And 432 00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:25,920 neither of those two people agreed with one another. 433 00:26:27,810 --> 00:26:31,050 We started this, we started this project, we're like, we pretty 434 00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:34,500 much just want to have three separate Bitcoin accounts. And 435 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:36,450 you can just deposit it directly. And we don't really 436 00:26:36,450 --> 00:26:40,890 want to be a company. Yeah. And maybe we can get well jump in. 437 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,490 I can just add something in a previous podcast that I thought 438 00:26:44,490 --> 00:26:47,700 was absolutely right. When you when you turned around, and you 439 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:50,760 said we're not funded for politics, we can't afford 440 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,910 politics. And I thought that that was a really good way of 441 00:26:53,910 --> 00:26:56,820 putting it that actually, you're just going ahead and doing 442 00:26:56,820 --> 00:27:01,260 things and and and making them work. And I think it's really 443 00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:05,370 interesting. You're talking about Todd and Rob's new media 444 00:27:05,370 --> 00:27:09,150 show earlier on, you know, they have been talking for a long, 445 00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:12,930 long time about, you know, we need to be working on new tags 446 00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:16,320 and all that all that we need is basically a couple of hours of 447 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,620 meetings a month and then and then you know, we'll be able to 448 00:27:19,620 --> 00:27:23,040 after six months, we might have some ideas of you know, where we 449 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,380 should be going forward. And I was thinking No, 450 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,490 no, no, no, just go ahead and do well. Actually, the meeting 451 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,100 process was the same way except we just decided to turn the 452 00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:35,100 meetings into a podcast that seemed a little more effective. 453 00:27:35,460 --> 00:27:36,330 Oh, yeah. 454 00:27:37,410 --> 00:27:41,940 Yeah, that's speaking of industry, industry, and players 455 00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:48,300 and movers and shakers. I heard on that. thing was for me today 456 00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:51,270 or yesterday's episode of pod land that Liz Gately from 457 00:27:51,270 --> 00:27:53,010 Spotify is rumored to be leaving. 458 00:27:54,420 --> 00:27:55,500 Yeah, apparently so. 459 00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:58,560 So what's the deal there, man? So what's happening? So? 460 00:27:58,830 --> 00:28:03,210 So this was in pod news yesterday? Yes. So she was the 461 00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:06,510 original person that was supposed to be sorting out 462 00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:11,550 Spotify, his podcast development and everything else, and says 463 00:28:11,550 --> 00:28:16,290 Bloomberg, she's going to leave the company. But it looks as if 464 00:28:16,290 --> 00:28:18,660 what's basically happened is you've now got, you know, the 465 00:28:18,660 --> 00:28:21,870 ringer in there. You've got a you've obviously got Joe Rogan. 466 00:28:21,870 --> 00:28:24,570 But you've got gimlet, you've got podcasts, you've got all of 467 00:28:24,570 --> 00:28:28,560 these other companies who are now part of Spotify. And so 468 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,830 really, they don't necessarily need somebody to oversee all of 469 00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:35,400 that, because they've got some really good people there. So 470 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,530 maybe, you know, maybe if if the story is is true, maybe that 471 00:28:40,530 --> 00:28:43,260 frankly, there's nothing for Liz to actually do anymore kind 472 00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:46,590 of patriarchy is that that's not a good system. This is a common 473 00:28:46,590 --> 00:28:46,860 that 474 00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:53,850 loves this. That said if you look at Nick quarz hotpot, he 475 00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:57,840 was saying that he was saying yesterday that this has come as 476 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,450 a surprise to quite a few people who've been working with her. 477 00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:03,900 You know, because Because actually, you know, they were, 478 00:29:04,350 --> 00:29:08,010 you know, she was really involved. And so it just seems a 479 00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:09,030 little bit of what was 480 00:29:09,390 --> 00:29:15,360 whose task is a James, to bring it all together. Who is in 481 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,680 charge of that there? 482 00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:21,750 Maybe that is Dawn Ostroff. Who's the Spotify Chief Content 483 00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:29,760 Officer? Maybe that's fair. I mean, maybe they're just, you 484 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,530 know, too many people at the top. And maybe, you know that 485 00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:38,010 that was the basic thing. But, you know, I mean, the story from 486 00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:40,980 Bloomberg that broke this yesterday was talking a lot 487 00:29:40,980 --> 00:29:45,390 about, you know, just the growing pains of how Spotify is 488 00:29:45,390 --> 00:29:48,180 actually dealing with all of this. And, you know, I mean, 489 00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:51,540 obviously, Spotify is now having to deal with Joe Rogan and all 490 00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:56,700 of the issues around that. But there's also you know, I think 491 00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:56,910 that 492 00:29:57,810 --> 00:30:01,710 I think that is the issue James. I you Nothing to cancel stuff 493 00:30:01,740 --> 00:30:05,160 not to cancel stuff. I think they're having trouble having 494 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,440 trouble converting a lot of people to being, they may be 495 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,230 Spotify customers, but converting them to becoming 496 00:30:13,230 --> 00:30:16,170 Spotify podcast customers. Well, that's 497 00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:22,260 absurd number that they listed of like 100 million podcast 498 00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:24,810 listeners on Spotify, or something like that. And I 499 00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:28,380 thought is that? I mean, they have to be counting every single 500 00:30:28,380 --> 00:30:31,320 person who accidentally clicked on a podcast in the UI. I mean, 501 00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:33,180 there's that can't be right. 502 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,280 I mean, what they said in their, in their financial reports, I 503 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:45,120 think, is that 22% I think the figure is now 22% of Spotify 504 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,380 users listen to podcasts. So 505 00:30:50,670 --> 00:30:51,660 whoa, hold on, 506 00:30:52,199 --> 00:30:53,159 in spite of they 507 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,040 may listen to podcasts. But do they listen to them in Spotify? 508 00:30:56,430 --> 00:30:59,640 Oh, yeah. In Spotify? Yeah. Okay, in Spotify 509 00:31:00,029 --> 00:31:03,389 in that's what that's what I'm saying. Is it because so here's 510 00:31:03,389 --> 00:31:05,759 how you I mean, like, the first thing that I think of you could 511 00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:10,439 use those numbers by auto, when you auto play after your after 512 00:31:10,439 --> 00:31:13,259 your album finishes, you just throw that there was a podcast 513 00:31:13,259 --> 00:31:16,349 episode in there, so that it rolls over to a podcast episode 514 00:31:16,349 --> 00:31:18,659 instead of the next album. And then you got a new listener that 515 00:31:18,659 --> 00:31:20,069 you can count in your quarterly results. 516 00:31:24,270 --> 00:31:25,050 100 million 517 00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:29,940 skeptic, you could be true. But having said that, that that 518 00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:36,570 figure only grew by 1% over the last quarter. That's a quarter, 519 00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:40,380 which includes Joe Rogan joining us. So from my point of view, 520 00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:44,370 I'm looking at that and I'm thinking that's great. Yeah, so 521 00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:49,050 it's 22% of them used podcasts, they now have 320 million 522 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:53,400 monthly active users globally. Globally, globally, globally. 523 00:31:53,460 --> 00:31:57,840 22% of those used podcast, which is that 1% from the previous 524 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,370 quarter, that does not seem to me like a hockey growth. Yeah, 525 00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:07,020 hockey stick podcasting, my friend, when, particularly when 526 00:32:07,020 --> 00:32:10,110 you've got when you've got the Joe Rogan experience joining 527 00:32:10,110 --> 00:32:14,640 Spotify during that quarter that to me, I don't know, I'm not 528 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,250 entirely convinced that that's going in the in the in the 529 00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:17,640 rights. 530 00:32:18,330 --> 00:32:21,870 Let me let me say this, though, I've got something that bugs me 531 00:32:21,870 --> 00:32:25,230 is the diff. Well, the difference between an original 532 00:32:25,230 --> 00:32:28,020 and an exclusive? those terms are used way too 533 00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:30,810 interchangeably. Yeah. And you know, and so you don't you don't 534 00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:34,830 ever know. Okay, is this? Is this just when they they listed 535 00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:36,990 as an original, but then you can't find it anywhere else in 536 00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:39,810 any, any any open system? So it's like, oh, it's also an 537 00:32:39,810 --> 00:32:43,800 exclusive. But then I want to bring that in that vein, I want 538 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:49,260 to bring this up, which is no agenda is listed on Audible in 539 00:32:49,260 --> 00:32:51,150 their index. Did you know that? Adam? 540 00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:53,400 No, I never stated it. 541 00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:57,960 Well, you know, the, the, the thing that I was looking at with 542 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,890 audible this morning, is they have all these original meaning 543 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,100 that half dozen or so original pod, you know, what they call 544 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:09,150 podcasts, which are not podcasts that are not outside their 545 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:13,050 ecosystem. And just like the Spotify stuff, they're 546 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,630 overproduced, like just like you're talking about earlier. 547 00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:21,510 Yeah, yeah. And they're boring. Like this. I can understand why 548 00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:24,870 they want to go out and buy existing existing content. 549 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:29,250 Because the stuff that's produced as, as a like a, an 550 00:33:29,250 --> 00:33:34,260 audio story format, is or, or an interview show, like the Bernie 551 00:33:34,260 --> 00:33:38,280 brown stuff and the Michelle Obama stuff. You can't. It is 552 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,380 just, it's boring to the people who love those people. You know, 553 00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:46,590 I mean, you can have the biggest, biggest Rene brown fan 554 00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:49,590 in the world. And you can they probably can't sit through that. 555 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,370 It's just not there's something about the descriptive of it. 556 00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:57,120 Well, yeah, there's also hit, you can be Bernie brown all you 557 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,500 want, and you may make write great books and have a 558 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:03,750 tremendous following. It doesn't necessarily mean you're an 559 00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:08,580 entertaining podcaster. You know, that's people seem to 560 00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:12,510 forget that I would although i didn't i remember blogs and 561 00:34:12,510 --> 00:34:16,770 blogging. Okay, well, we can toss out 99% of it, because all 562 00:34:16,770 --> 00:34:20,340 crap. And then there's a piece that sticks and people like and 563 00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:22,680 there's always going to be everyone should have a blog, 564 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,980 that's fine. But doesn't mean that it'll be a commercially 565 00:34:26,010 --> 00:34:31,260 profitable venture. As we know, 95% of most podcasts don't even 566 00:34:31,260 --> 00:34:32,160 care about that. 567 00:34:33,659 --> 00:34:34,499 don't even care. 568 00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,879 Yeah. Are you do you think that their brain Do you think Spotify 569 00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:42,299 is bringing in a radio mindset to it or do you think they're 570 00:34:42,299 --> 00:34:44,369 coming at it from a from a more of a television? No, 571 00:34:44,369 --> 00:34:47,849 I think, well, I really don't know. And maybe James can jump 572 00:34:47,849 --> 00:34:50,729 in here, but they've got production teams. Look, if you 573 00:34:50,729 --> 00:34:56,639 listen to my shows, I produce four. They sound similar. Now. 574 00:34:57,539 --> 00:34:59,819 They're different in content, but the production is going to 575 00:34:59,819 --> 00:35:03,899 be Very similar. Now if you have not, if you have the same 576 00:35:03,899 --> 00:35:07,799 producers, because remember these podcasts, companies now 577 00:35:07,799 --> 00:35:11,189 they have producers and line producers and they built an 578 00:35:11,189 --> 00:35:15,329 infrastructure, which is kind of counterintuitive to the beauty 579 00:35:15,329 --> 00:35:18,719 of podcasting. If you can figure out how to do it yourself, you 580 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,859 can do it yourself. Yeah. And then you get people whose job it 581 00:35:22,859 --> 00:35:25,619 is, is to back out and produce an interview show got segment 582 00:35:25,619 --> 00:35:28,379 one here, segment two there. I mean, we don't do any of that 583 00:35:28,379 --> 00:35:28,829 here. 584 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:31,620 Do we? Yeah. 585 00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,870 Well, you started the show with some with some Jingle Bells. Is 586 00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:38,430 that yeah, that's production. 587 00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:40,410 Yes. That's production. Exactly. 588 00:35:41,130 --> 00:35:43,350 What what do you what do you think about that? James? Do you 589 00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:47,850 think that from the come you're talking about radio history and 590 00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:48,900 that kind of stuff before? 591 00:35:49,260 --> 00:35:50,010 Yeah, 592 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,270 I'd seen somebody I forget what it was you you link to like a 593 00:35:54,270 --> 00:35:56,670 seminar or something that you were a part of, and and maybe 594 00:35:56,670 --> 00:36:00,270 Sam said he was a part of it as well. But you link to it. At one 595 00:36:00,270 --> 00:36:04,710 point. And you said, in I think one of y'all said that radio and 596 00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:07,800 podcasting are different. And they shouldn't you shouldn't 597 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,360 think of them the same. Do you? I mean, what are you? Can you 598 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,610 flesh that out? Or do you do you think that or do you think 599 00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:16,590 they're more similar than different? Oh, I 600 00:36:16,590 --> 00:36:19,770 mean, I think that there's there's a lot of similarity. And 601 00:36:19,770 --> 00:36:25,560 there's a lot of differences. And I think, you know, when so I 602 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,280 mean, I come at this as a Brit that now lives in Australia. And 603 00:36:29,310 --> 00:36:32,400 one of the things that I noticed a lot is that there is a 604 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,320 definite sound that NPR has. And it's the sound where everybody 605 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,940 talks a bit like this. And it's all very careful and close to 606 00:36:41,940 --> 00:36:46,200 the microphone. And here's some random jazz. And that's and 607 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,250 that's lovely. But there's a definite sound to what NPR does. 608 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,090 There's also a definite sound or gimlet does I agree, is gimlet 609 00:36:54,090 --> 00:36:58,890 is a great podcast company makes great shows Reply All is a 610 00:36:58,890 --> 00:37:02,700 fantastic show, which is not a radio show. It's a deliberate 611 00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:08,280 it's it's a podcasting. You know, podcasting first type of 612 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,610 show, which works fantastically well. But there are other people 613 00:37:11,610 --> 00:37:17,400 who have come at this from radio, and have taken a very, 614 00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:23,460 you know, radio sort of thinking of how you make a show and how 615 00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:28,740 you format a show and everything else. And tried to translate 616 00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:31,890 that into podcasting without necessarily having to listen to 617 00:37:31,890 --> 00:37:35,520 a lot of podcasts. And maybe that's the that's the big 618 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,760 difference there. And I think, you know, I mean, I've heard 619 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,080 you, Dave, playing clips of some of the shows that are on 620 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:48,720 Spotify, from some of these big stars. And, you know, and and 621 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,970 they're certainly not the sort of shows that I would want to 622 00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:54,570 have a listen to that said, you know, that, you know, I'm sure 623 00:37:54,570 --> 00:37:56,580 that they have an audience because otherwise they wouldn't 624 00:37:56,580 --> 00:38:00,330 have, they wouldn't have spent all of the money on them again. 625 00:38:00,390 --> 00:38:03,360 I also also, by the way, wouldn't listen to Joe Rogan. 626 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,460 Well, neither have I never will. 627 00:38:06,870 --> 00:38:09,660 It's, it's interesting when I hear you to discuss this thought 628 00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:12,150 popped in my mind. And this brings us back to what you said 629 00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:16,440 earlier, James, the interact, I think Joe Rogan, had a great 630 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,990 audience, despite himself, because I know we're, we're kind 631 00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:26,640 of friends. He's not a guy that interacts. He's not a guy that 632 00:38:26,670 --> 00:38:29,910 to post stuff on Instagram, he won't read it. He's very vocal 633 00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:34,830 about how he says it drives me crazy. his audience, as far as 634 00:38:34,830 --> 00:38:37,830 I'm concerned, is in his YouTube comments, which were 635 00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:44,160 unceremoniously blown up with deletion of up yet at least he 636 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,550 left I think he has 100 that he that he keeps on his YouTube 637 00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:54,840 channel. So he had that community, despite what he was 638 00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:01,350 doing. And that community kind of got a, you know, got screwed 639 00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:06,750 over a little bit on where they could interact. And the the 640 00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:10,740 stuffs that podcasters inherently do, which at the 641 00:39:10,740 --> 00:39:15,060 basis comes down to email, but even the value for value model 642 00:39:15,090 --> 00:39:18,840 is a pure interactive feature where someone is sending us 643 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,850 value, giving us something to read, and the fact that we're 644 00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:26,370 doing it is sending the value right back. A lot of people love 645 00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:32,070 that part alone. All of these things can only be done, really 646 00:39:32,070 --> 00:39:35,340 without the restrictions of the commercial infrastructure. 647 00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:39,570 Mm hmm. Yeah, I think you're right to a point there and I 648 00:39:39,570 --> 00:39:43,590 think was you know, some of the some of the best radio shows 649 00:39:43,590 --> 00:39:46,410 that I've worked on have been shows that have been really 650 00:39:46,410 --> 00:39:51,990 interactive. And, and have worked very hard. There's one 651 00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:55,650 thing say, you know, the lines are open, though. Cool. That's 652 00:39:55,650 --> 00:40:01,080 one thing, but you can but you can also help Educate your 653 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,410 audience in terms of what you want from them. There's an 654 00:40:04,410 --> 00:40:09,270 amazing broadcaster in the UK, a guy called Jeff Lloyd, who used 655 00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:12,120 to be on the old virgin radio used to be an absolute radio for 656 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,900 a long time, has a podcast has a number of different podcasts. 657 00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:20,040 And one of them is called, reasons to be cheerful with Ed 658 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,330 Miliband. And one of the things that he has done, and he's 659 00:40:24,330 --> 00:40:28,530 spoken about this at conferences and things, he doesn't want a 660 00:40:28,530 --> 00:40:32,550 lot of calls, he just wants great calls, calls that he can 661 00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:37,740 use on the calls that he can use on his podcast as being you 662 00:40:37,740 --> 00:40:41,490 know, as being great content from audience from his audience 663 00:40:41,490 --> 00:40:47,010 that he can then use to make a great show. And so I think quite 664 00:40:47,010 --> 00:40:51,120 a lot of radio people quite a lot of podcasting. People want 665 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,760 the numbers. And you know, they want loads of text. So loads of 666 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,780 messages, loads of very good actually, what are you really 667 00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:03,840 want is you want the cream of the crop, and you want the other 668 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,630 people that don't think that their story is good enough to 669 00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:10,980 not call please. So you can actually get really good stuff. 670 00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:13,260 Really well, that's 671 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:16,290 a very good point. Because with with divorce, and I, we've 672 00:41:16,290 --> 00:41:21,600 never, never, ever looked at stats, you know, a cursory like, 673 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,100 I know how many terabytes we push in data. The only thing we 674 00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:29,670 ever cared about is can we pay the rent? Yes, that's all there 675 00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:33,180 was. Which was not directly related to how many people were 676 00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:34,830 listening. Yeah, 677 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,310 does. Does Does he still get no spam? By the way? 678 00:41:38,490 --> 00:41:42,990 Oh, my God, he gets almost no email. If you put if you put if 679 00:41:42,990 --> 00:41:46,410 you put the word shit in an email, you get porn blocked by 680 00:41:46,410 --> 00:41:53,070 him. He doesn't believe that I keep telling him long story. Is 681 00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:57,330 his reasons to be cheerful. Is that relate relating back to Ian 682 00:41:57,330 --> 00:41:57,840 jury? 683 00:41:58,770 --> 00:42:02,880 I believe it may be okay. Yes. cheerful. The other one is the 684 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,380 other one is, is called adrift. Which is another great show that 685 00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:10,470 he does. But yeah, no, exactly. 686 00:42:11,310 --> 00:42:16,710 No. So on the other day, I guess on the other side of on the 687 00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:19,290 other side of that is just the, you know, the mission of the 688 00:42:19,290 --> 00:42:22,410 India we talk a lot about the pushing podcasting forward and 689 00:42:22,410 --> 00:42:25,860 that kind of thing. But on last, the last episode of pod land 690 00:42:26,010 --> 00:42:29,310 that I was listening to, you're asking about, you know, how we 691 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:37,200 sort of anticipate having to deal with take downs and that 692 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,000 kind of stuff. And so how, you know, what, our free speech, you 693 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,780 know, because we always say that we want to be a platform for 694 00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:50,550 freedom of speech. And, you know, the, the thing that I've 695 00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:53,580 been thinking a lot about that, actually, since I heard that 696 00:42:53,580 --> 00:42:57,000 episode, because I'm like, you know, what, I haven't really had 697 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,520 a lot of stuff swirling in my head, and but I haven't really 698 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,630 stopped to think to, like, put it in, like, put it into words. 699 00:43:03,630 --> 00:43:06,840 And it was actually a pretty good chat intellectual challenge 700 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,520 to, to sit there and think about it. And, you know, we'll, of 701 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,540 course we'll, you know, always deal with the comply with local 702 00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:19,350 law and those kinds of things in but in on a broader sense, I 703 00:43:19,350 --> 00:43:25,350 think. I think really, from that standpoint, it's a it's a 704 00:43:25,350 --> 00:43:28,950 situation where I think and i think i think we live in a 705 00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:33,900 unique period right now with the vitriol of the of the 2016 to 706 00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:41,010 2020 time period and in it has caused this this extreme 707 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,240 extremism it mean it It feels like there are hands in the 708 00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:49,290 middle just pushing each side to the extremes of right and left 709 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,760 and what what happened what has happened I feel like is this 710 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,840 misinformation disinformation fact checking, this stuff has 711 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:05,730 popped up very recently. And so that that scares me the because 712 00:44:05,730 --> 00:44:11,010 I see the debris that it leaves behind it. And really in that's 713 00:44:11,010 --> 00:44:15,930 what that's what I feel like there's a challenge to there was 714 00:44:15,930 --> 00:44:19,800 a there was an opening out there for someone to step in the 715 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,360 middle and say okay, there's there's going to be a space 716 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,880 space or a place on the in the podcasting world where the fact 717 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,940 checkers and the disinformation labels and those sorts of 718 00:44:32,940 --> 00:44:38,460 things. Those those are not here. Those can be downstream 719 00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:43,080 from us. But they don't reside here. It's a non techies Am I 720 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,400 taking a non editorial approach, so to speak, because what for 721 00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:49,290 for instance, you know, I was reading a Glenn Greenwald 722 00:44:49,290 --> 00:44:53,490 article the other day about Instagram fact checking. Joe 723 00:44:53,490 --> 00:44:57,960 Biden's crime record and they you know, they he lists out he 724 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:03,210 goes through there and Instagram List usa today as showing that 725 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,810 one of the posts was false about his prime record. But then he 726 00:45:06,810 --> 00:45:10,890 also lists out eight other fact checking organizations that are 727 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,270 listed as partially true or true. So there's, there's this 728 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:22,980 strange sort of mix of fact checking and political adherence 729 00:45:22,980 --> 00:45:25,560 and all this kind of stuff. And I think it's so new in this 730 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,530 whole game. And it's so politicized that I don't trust 731 00:45:28,530 --> 00:45:34,410 it. factcheck fault. Exactly. Yeah. And so like, we are an 732 00:45:34,410 --> 00:45:37,920 organization that I've listened to and followed and supported, 733 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,210 actually, for a long time as anti war, calm, anti war radio, 734 00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:48,030 and they have, you know, been all listed on various terrorism, 735 00:45:48,030 --> 00:45:51,630 watch lists, and all these disinformation, it's the whole 736 00:45:51,630 --> 00:45:56,460 thing is bogus. And that really set me off as thinking, you 737 00:45:56,460 --> 00:45:59,970 know, I don't trust this fact checking the fact checker kind 738 00:45:59,970 --> 00:46:03,570 of thing. And the defense of the disinformation labels have 739 00:46:03,570 --> 00:46:07,290 become so highly politicized that I think there really does 740 00:46:07,290 --> 00:46:13,230 need to be a sort of unbiased directory level thing where the 741 00:46:13,260 --> 00:46:16,980 any, any filtering can happen downstream from that. 742 00:46:18,420 --> 00:46:18,990 The 743 00:46:21,989 --> 00:46:26,939 the commercial nature of the internet is what is being used 744 00:46:26,939 --> 00:46:31,499 as a wedge, for kancil culture, that's what people discovered is 745 00:46:32,939 --> 00:46:36,899 you can pressure advertisers to have someone kicked off and then 746 00:46:36,899 --> 00:46:39,269 a certain point, you don't have to pressure advertisers, you 747 00:46:39,269 --> 00:46:42,209 just pressure the platform, because hey, you want this guy 748 00:46:42,209 --> 00:46:46,079 on, then he's going to get your advertisers not gonna be happy. 749 00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:50,189 Look, I cc them. And from there went to well, we might as well 750 00:46:50,189 --> 00:46:53,369 preemptively do something, and then we can't really take it 751 00:46:53,369 --> 00:46:59,309 off, let's put a label on it is the no agenda show would last 17 752 00:46:59,309 --> 00:47:05,489 seconds in a commercial environment. But because we're 753 00:47:05,489 --> 00:47:10,529 not in it, not also not for hosting. It's an interesting 754 00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:14,699 thing. People talk, talk crap about us, but there's no there's 755 00:47:14,699 --> 00:47:19,259 no lever, there really does solve a lot of problems. It's 756 00:47:19,259 --> 00:47:22,109 like, if you want free speech, you got to get out of the 757 00:47:22,109 --> 00:47:27,239 advertising realm. Because advertising is censorship bottom 758 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:34,559 line. And James, I'm sure you would see, I know you have to 759 00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:38,999 self censor, you can't you can't go tinkling and everybody's 760 00:47:38,999 --> 00:47:40,559 cornflakes and the industry. 761 00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:46,770 Well, I think once you have a once you have enough 762 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:53,580 advertisers, then I think you can actually be you can carry 763 00:47:53,610 --> 00:47:57,330 enough stories that sometimes aren't going to be particularly 764 00:47:57,330 --> 00:48:01,350 positive. I mean, heavens, you know, you only need to go back 765 00:48:01,350 --> 00:48:04,320 and look at some of the things that I've uncovered about the 766 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,770 way that anchor works, you know, as one as one example and 767 00:48:07,770 --> 00:48:12,810 Spotify piece is still is still you know, covering, you know, 768 00:48:12,810 --> 00:48:19,110 it's still supporting the, the newsletter. I think where it 769 00:48:19,110 --> 00:48:24,960 gets more difficult is if you have five advertisers and you so 770 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,860 you can't afford to annoy any of those advertisers. Once you've 771 00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:33,390 got you know, over 100 supporters as I do, thankfully, 772 00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:37,680 then it does mean that I think you can be you can, you know, 773 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:44,100 tell the truth. You can you can, you know, cover whatever it is 774 00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:48,270 that needs to be covered. And if you lose one out of 100 775 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,600 supporters well you lose one out of 100 supporters and it'll be 776 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,490 pretty obvious why they've gone You know, yeah, so i think i 777 00:48:56,490 --> 00:48:59,400 think that there's a difference there in between Yeah, 778 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,700 absolutely. If you're only going to have two or three you know 779 00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:07,740 individual you know individual advertisers then you need to be 780 00:49:07,740 --> 00:49:12,480 super super polite to all of them probably go some way you 781 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,500 know if you have more now 782 00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:16,440 you do your own direct sales you don't deal with a network. 783 00:49:17,460 --> 00:49:22,260 I yeah, there's a fantastic lady called called Christie that 784 00:49:22,260 --> 00:49:27,000 looks after all of that. But yes, it's it's all done for for 785 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:27,750 us. So yeah. 786 00:49:29,250 --> 00:49:33,030 That's another Yeah, that's another weak link in the chain 787 00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:36,480 typically is when you're dealing with programmatic ads with ad ad 788 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,360 networks. Oh, yeah. They're not going to want you Oh my God, 789 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,660 that's okay, man. Please don't use it. 790 00:49:43,019 --> 00:49:48,629 I was reading that article as the Guardian article. Was it the 791 00:49:48,659 --> 00:49:49,949 sinister sounds 792 00:49:50,010 --> 00:49:51,570 Yes or no? Yeah, this 793 00:49:51,989 --> 00:49:55,199 article. He has written that in reading through it because we 794 00:49:55,199 --> 00:49:57,239 talked about we briefly touched on it the light at the end of 795 00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,699 last episode, and I was like, you know, really haven't gotten 796 00:49:59,699 --> 00:50:03,239 all the way through it. And so I dug in a little bit in this, 797 00:50:03,269 --> 00:50:09,869 this sort of this comment stood out to me says, Tom, Alex Jones 798 00:50:10,559 --> 00:50:13,949 said Jones's own show had been kicked off Spotify under its HP 799 00:50:13,979 --> 00:50:17,609 hate speech policy was given space to broadcast a stream of 800 00:50:17,609 --> 00:50:20,429 consciousness about everything from climate change to vaccines 801 00:50:20,429 --> 00:50:24,569 with minimal factchecking. And when I read that, I thought it 802 00:50:25,499 --> 00:50:30,269 immediately the person who came to mind was art bale. I thought, 803 00:50:30,269 --> 00:50:35,039 you know, that's exactly what he did. And he made a 35 year 804 00:50:35,249 --> 00:50:38,729 career out of it on radio, and nobody fact checked in when he 805 00:50:38,729 --> 00:50:42,869 said that some dude got one of his guests that he was 806 00:50:42,869 --> 00:50:47,789 interviewing got abducted by, you know, Sasquatch in the 807 00:50:47,789 --> 00:50:51,029 Appalachian forest, you know, and forced to procreate with 808 00:50:51,029 --> 00:50:54,089 their women. Like he that was actually a episode that I heard 809 00:50:54,089 --> 00:50:57,959 one time. So it like he made an actual career at that, but I 810 00:50:57,959 --> 00:51:03,389 think we have become so we've become so deep, so sensitive 811 00:51:03,389 --> 00:51:09,029 now. That a it is it is extremely difficult for somebody 812 00:51:09,269 --> 00:51:12,929 to operate in the middle. You know, it's, it's, it's like, 813 00:51:13,019 --> 00:51:16,139 what's happened is everybody's been pushed to the right. And 814 00:51:16,139 --> 00:51:19,109 now the now you have your conservative people over here 815 00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:22,889 who are bailing out of YouTube and creating their own video 816 00:51:22,889 --> 00:51:26,759 sites, and then you got the left over here that you know, those 817 00:51:26,759 --> 00:51:30,269 people they're taking over Reddit and these other forums. 818 00:51:30,599 --> 00:51:33,749 And it's just like, there's nothing, there's no middle 819 00:51:33,749 --> 00:51:34,289 ground. 820 00:51:34,290 --> 00:51:37,620 Yeah. But Dave, I got to push back on that. What happens is, 821 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,970 is these platforms like Rumble, they see who's coming over. And 822 00:51:41,970 --> 00:51:45,570 it's just like, like Fox News, Fox News, see, okay, we got 823 00:51:45,570 --> 00:51:50,010 conservative people, we're gonna cater to them, rumble sees, hey, 824 00:51:50,010 --> 00:51:52,350 we've got all the conservative people who don't like Twitter, 825 00:51:52,350 --> 00:51:55,590 we're gonna cater to them. So they just ramp that up. And as 826 00:51:55,590 --> 00:51:59,670 long as people want, as long as people are going to continue to 827 00:52:00,570 --> 00:52:03,900 ride on coattails of companies that provide these services 828 00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:08,490 until they figure it out, they're going to happen if we're 829 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,690 podcasts index dot social in, I believe, is one of the great 830 00:52:12,690 --> 00:52:16,740 contributing factors to the success of this project. Because 831 00:52:16,740 --> 00:52:20,280 it tastes a very familiar interface people really, it has 832 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,410 its quirks, but people in general understand that 833 00:52:22,410 --> 00:52:26,910 immediately. But we're not messing around with you. We're 834 00:52:26,910 --> 00:52:30,750 not continuously pushing stuff, you know, popping up 835 00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:36,150 controversies. You know, it's kind of, you know, it's a 836 00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:39,870 timeline. It's an actual timeline, you get, oh, I've 837 00:52:39,870 --> 00:52:44,070 already read this one. I'm at the end, go to the top refresh 838 00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:48,840 now. All right, move on. And but but the interaction is, is very 839 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:53,250 good. And there's people from all walks of life all. I mean, 840 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,980 so we had recently, I think, James, you might have James, 841 00:52:55,980 --> 00:53:00,090 you're a guy who would easily post something like, well, since 842 00:53:00,090 --> 00:53:02,670 you clearly have no clue what you're talking about, I'm gonna 843 00:53:02,670 --> 00:53:06,360 step back from this thread. I saw you with Brian of London. 844 00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:12,060 But But what happened is nothing. He didn't escalate, it 845 00:53:12,060 --> 00:53:16,440 didn't elevate it. Which was interesting. No, I'll go. And 846 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,720 you know, even I don't even know if Brian answered you didn't 847 00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:22,590 show up for me. So no one was presenting me with with the 848 00:53:22,590 --> 00:53:26,820 conflict. I didn't even see like posting, I'm like, whatever, 849 00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:30,240 fine. It'll be fine. Everyone's gonna everyone will love each 850 00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,780 other. In the end, it all be okay. We're all grown ups. So 851 00:53:33,810 --> 00:53:36,900 there's a big difference. I think the platform's are rigged 852 00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:38,640 to do this. And 853 00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:42,569 so I, I used to live, as you know, Adam, I used to live in 854 00:53:42,569 --> 00:53:49,169 the UK and I, and in the UK, broadcast media, so TV and radio 855 00:53:49,199 --> 00:53:53,849 is not allowed to be biased. It is, it is illegal. Now you can 856 00:53:53,879 --> 00:53:58,859 you can laugh, because of course it is. But there is a legal 857 00:53:59,129 --> 00:54:04,109 compunction for their license, that they should not unduly be 858 00:54:04,109 --> 00:54:09,539 biased on one side. What that essentially means is that if you 859 00:54:09,539 --> 00:54:14,009 have a mad bloke on the on the Breakfast Show talking about, 860 00:54:14,009 --> 00:54:16,769 you know, the fact that climate change is nonsense, and there's 861 00:54:16,769 --> 00:54:19,619 no such thing and you know, and it's all and it's all a 862 00:54:19,619 --> 00:54:23,999 conspiracy, then at least you have somebody else giving the 863 00:54:24,029 --> 00:54:26,579 other viewpoint. Yeah, but they stopped doing that kind of 864 00:54:26,639 --> 00:54:28,199 Yeah, but they stopped doing that. 865 00:54:28,619 --> 00:54:34,109 Well. And then when you when I then moved from the UK here to 866 00:54:34,199 --> 00:54:38,939 Pitt, Australia, and I heard this guy called called Alan 867 00:54:38,939 --> 00:54:44,219 Jones, of course on on the show. And he was there saying, you 868 00:54:44,219 --> 00:54:47,369 know, this is ridiculous climate change. It's all it's all 869 00:54:47,369 --> 00:54:52,289 nonsense. It's all it's all completely made up. And it's an 870 00:54:52,439 --> 00:54:53,909 apostate in the news and troubling. 871 00:54:56,969 --> 00:54:59,969 Where's the where's the balancing? Well, but but the 872 00:54:59,999 --> 00:55:04,049 ferries in the UK there's now directive to no longer let 873 00:55:04,049 --> 00:55:07,499 climate change deniers on the air at all. So it's gone the 874 00:55:07,499 --> 00:55:08,339 other direction. 875 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,420 I mean, I think climate change is a it was a bad example that I 876 00:55:12,420 --> 00:55:13,830 gave, but I think any 877 00:55:13,889 --> 00:55:15,539 I think it's the best example. 878 00:55:18,359 --> 00:55:22,019 And the reason why I mentioned climate changes that is, is that 879 00:55:22,019 --> 00:55:24,299 that was the easiest thing that I could actually think of 880 00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:27,450 vaccines are another one vaccines do it all. 881 00:55:27,629 --> 00:55:30,989 I mean, it's all there. I mean, both, both both vaccines and 882 00:55:30,989 --> 00:55:36,989 climate change the the, the the scientific, you know, proof is 883 00:55:36,989 --> 00:55:40,079 overwhelming. So there isn't a there isn't really a 884 00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:43,409 conversation in between, is it happening? Or is it not 885 00:55:43,409 --> 00:55:46,079 happening? Yes, it's happening. It's obvious, it's happening. 886 00:55:46,109 --> 00:55:48,689 All the scientific proof says that it's happening, therefore 887 00:55:48,689 --> 00:55:51,899 it's happening. So there isn't actually a bias that needs to be 888 00:55:52,439 --> 00:55:55,469 gone into there, where there is a bias that needs to be gone 889 00:55:55,469 --> 00:55:59,939 into is, you know, should all should all public transport be 890 00:55:59,939 --> 00:56:04,769 free, should be a minimum wage should be you know, all of that 891 00:56:04,769 --> 00:56:08,039 kind of stuff, which is less polarizing, of course, but all 892 00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:12,899 of that kind of stuff clearly has two sides to those 893 00:56:12,959 --> 00:56:16,439 arguments, the recent two sides to climate change argument, and 894 00:56:16,439 --> 00:56:18,479 there isn't two sides to a vaccination argument. 895 00:56:25,829 --> 00:56:29,249 That the interesting thing about that. The interesting thing 896 00:56:29,249 --> 00:56:33,449 about that, though, is what it is, how do you deal with it? And 897 00:56:33,449 --> 00:56:38,579 I think that's where the issue comes in, is, do you label it as 898 00:56:38,579 --> 00:56:42,959 disinformation? Or do you ban it? Or do you take it down? And 899 00:56:42,959 --> 00:56:45,689 I think I think Matt Taibbi article dealt with that very 900 00:56:45,689 --> 00:56:50,669 well. He said, If you know, if you're concerned about something 901 00:56:50,669 --> 00:56:55,409 is being something being disinformation, banning it, is 902 00:56:55,409 --> 00:56:58,649 the quickest way to make people think that there's a cover up, 903 00:56:59,309 --> 00:57:02,189 and that you're trying to suppress it. So like I was 904 00:57:02,189 --> 00:57:05,999 reading. This has been a few days ago. And I was reading a 905 00:57:05,999 --> 00:57:10,199 CNN article, and it was actually from from back in August, he 906 00:57:10,199 --> 00:57:16,379 said that 70 to 70% of the of the American population now 907 00:57:16,769 --> 00:57:20,579 agrees with same sex marriage. And 908 00:57:21,690 --> 00:57:23,130 I doubt that's true. 909 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,520 I don't know if it's true or not. But they the poll, the 910 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:31,830 polling, it's definitely higher than 50. And so the poll, what I 911 00:57:31,830 --> 00:57:38,250 was thinking was, it immediately made me think, back to 2008, 912 00:57:38,910 --> 00:57:44,460 when Barack Obama ran for his first term, and there was a 913 00:57:44,490 --> 00:57:48,750 controversy surrounding him where he was, and he was against 914 00:57:48,750 --> 00:57:52,230 same sex marriage. You know, at the very beginning, he had this 915 00:57:52,260 --> 00:57:55,170 there was a big sort of a big to do with fencing Marriage Act. 916 00:57:55,290 --> 00:57:59,550 Yeah. And he said, Well, I know, I've always been against same 917 00:57:59,550 --> 00:58:03,390 sex marriage, but now I've changed my mind. Yeah. And so it 918 00:58:03,390 --> 00:58:05,880 made me sort of put a timeline together in my head. And I 919 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,750 thought, you know, so here's, here's over over a 12 year 920 00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:14,130 period of time, we've gone from having our politicians openly 921 00:58:14,130 --> 00:58:16,980 denying same sex marriage to where you could never get 922 00:58:16,980 --> 00:58:22,200 elected at all, by denying same sex marriage. And that didn't 923 00:58:22,260 --> 00:58:28,080 that progress as social progress came from one than one thing? It 924 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,230 will it happened in the absence of disinformation labels, in 925 00:58:31,230 --> 00:58:36,690 fact, checkers. Ah, I happen. It happened with just an open 926 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,920 debate where everybody, everybody can either say yes, 927 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,610 without without being banned, I hear you and and the proper, 928 00:58:44,850 --> 00:58:49,740 correct decision was made by this society. So 929 00:58:49,740 --> 00:58:52,740 the accelerant was, of course, the internet, because that's 930 00:58:52,740 --> 00:58:55,500 what made that's what really accelerates all these things. 931 00:58:56,490 --> 00:59:02,310 But I think you're very correct. At that time, man. I think Jeep 932 00:59:02,460 --> 00:59:07,230 was Google Plus, I think, launched around that time. 933 00:59:08,010 --> 00:59:11,790 Google Plus, and yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And so 934 00:59:11,970 --> 00:59:17,100 to bring it back around to podcast index, I will, that's a 935 00:59:17,370 --> 00:59:20,970 that's a hill I'm ready to I'm willing to die on. We are 936 00:59:20,970 --> 00:59:29,010 hosting an index of feeds. This this is no argument. The more 937 00:59:29,010 --> 00:59:32,670 people who can say stuff, the better if I just there's, 938 00:59:33,180 --> 00:59:35,970 there's nothing there's no other logic. 939 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,650 We've seen it all. We've seen all every single model would 940 00:59:40,650 --> 00:59:43,680 doesn't work. And now we have something new but the people 941 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,310 still have to figure out that if you want to do this, the 942 00:59:47,310 --> 00:59:52,140 difference the difference there Adam comes into If yes, of 943 00:59:52,140 --> 00:59:55,800 course you're hosting an index of feeds the differences do you 944 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,670 put if you have a discovery mechanism in your in your 945 00:59:59,670 --> 01:00:06,900 podcast, That that podcast index runs, do you put something as a 946 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:12,810 as a suggested podcast in front of someone that, you know, 947 01:00:13,230 --> 01:00:18,330 contains, you know, contains unsafe or racist or unpleasant? 948 01:00:18,419 --> 01:00:20,849 Right? Well, that's up to the pod. That's up to the podcast 949 01:00:20,849 --> 01:00:21,269 app. 950 01:00:22,739 --> 01:00:26,099 So I suppose the question is, but you know, I mean, it comes 951 01:00:26,099 --> 01:00:31,349 back to if you if you do a search, should the search that 952 01:00:31,349 --> 01:00:37,979 podcast index runs? Should that search uncover? You know, deeply 953 01:00:37,979 --> 01:00:39,119 racist and unpleasant? But 954 01:00:39,119 --> 01:00:43,379 yes, yes. The the standard Basic Search should should uncover 955 01:00:43,379 --> 01:00:48,839 everything I believe. So. If so, we've discussed from day one, if 956 01:00:48,839 --> 01:00:53,249 you want the sanitized version, we're happy to put a checkmark 957 01:00:53,249 --> 01:00:55,589 in front of everything that's an apples index, and you can just 958 01:00:55,589 --> 01:00:59,249 use that, that's fine by me. But you can't get down to I want a 959 01:00:59,249 --> 01:01:01,979 sensitivity for this a sensitivity for that a 960 01:01:01,979 --> 01:01:05,849 sensitivity for a, b, and c, we can't do that the apps can do 961 01:01:05,849 --> 01:01:10,259 that any app can be a completely family friendly app, do whatever 962 01:01:10,259 --> 01:01:14,069 you like. And if we can help in any way providing an endpoint to 963 01:01:14,069 --> 01:01:17,009 you in that manner, I think we don't have a problem with it, 964 01:01:17,279 --> 01:01:19,979 but ultimately, has to be available. 965 01:01:20,699 --> 01:01:24,989 So maybe, maybe the answer then is, is to have that, you know, 966 01:01:25,079 --> 01:01:28,499 tick box of is this in Apple because you know if there's one 967 01:01:28,499 --> 01:01:32,729 thing that Apple has done a, you know, a good job on, it's making 968 01:01:32,729 --> 01:01:36,149 sure that the stuff which is in the apple podcasts in days, no 969 01:01:36,149 --> 01:01:42,599 fun. Is has been has been humanly vetted, shall we say? 970 01:01:42,810 --> 01:01:46,230 Well, now this is interesting, because it hasn't been this is 971 01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:50,340 something that Dave noticed, maybe one of our first shows, 972 01:01:50,820 --> 01:01:56,310 and wanting to pay attention to this snippet from 2006. I think 973 01:01:56,310 --> 01:01:59,430 it is the de conference when Steve Jobs presented podcasting 974 01:01:59,430 --> 01:02:03,360 onstage, I'm not playing the whole thing. Just a moment where 975 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:07,260 I say something, I dropped an F bomb, and then listen to what 976 01:02:07,260 --> 01:02:11,400 Kara Swisher says onstage. This is the first podcast ever 977 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:17,340 demonstrated in public. Radio. 978 01:02:26,909 --> 01:02:30,659 That's right, it's show number 180. And it's Friday, everybody. 979 01:02:33,929 --> 01:02:36,929 I've actually had to restart the show three times my Mac has been 980 01:02:36,929 --> 01:02:38,849 acting up like a motherfucking. 981 01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:42,989 Something to do with the file system. 982 01:02:43,199 --> 01:02:44,009 Okay. 983 01:02:48,659 --> 01:02:51,059 How do you control say dirty stuff? 984 01:02:51,090 --> 01:02:54,720 I mean, we're gonna have an explicit flag on these, like we 985 01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,010 do the music. So you can, 986 01:02:56,190 --> 01:02:58,560 Dave, the first thing you said, when you heard that was, Oh, 987 01:02:58,620 --> 01:03:02,100 isn't that typical? Good, they go straight for the gatekeeping 988 01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:03,780 role straight for it. 989 01:03:04,949 --> 01:03:08,309 That's that's the thing that I that I always think of, and I 990 01:03:08,309 --> 01:03:11,699 don't forget where I heard this first. But you know, you never 991 01:03:11,699 --> 01:03:17,039 make policy based on the guy who is in office. Now, you make 992 01:03:17,039 --> 01:03:20,849 policy based on the guy who may be in office, two or three guys 993 01:03:20,849 --> 01:03:24,509 down the line. And because the guy that's in there, now, maybe 994 01:03:24,539 --> 01:03:27,749 he may be your guy, you know, he may believe like you do, and you 995 01:03:27,749 --> 01:03:31,319 may, you may be on his team and that sort of thing. But things 996 01:03:31,319 --> 01:03:34,589 change over time. And in the guy too. You don't want to give too 997 01:03:34,589 --> 01:03:38,189 much power to the office right now, because they got two or 998 01:03:38,189 --> 01:03:41,759 three steps down the line, he may be a creep. He may be 999 01:03:41,759 --> 01:03:44,729 terrible, he may disagree with everything that you do that you 1000 01:03:44,729 --> 01:03:48,749 hold. So I think it's the same way with Nia with making 1001 01:03:48,749 --> 01:03:52,619 policies about disinformation labels and takedowns. And that 1002 01:03:52,619 --> 01:03:57,569 sort of thing is, you know, when when it seems like the tide of 1003 01:03:57,989 --> 01:04:01,859 society is moving in your direction, the direction that 1004 01:04:01,859 --> 01:04:05,609 you agree with? You don't you know, you the tendency is to get 1005 01:04:05,609 --> 01:04:09,419 overzealous and say, Okay, we're gonna stamp out every every 1006 01:04:09,419 --> 01:04:12,809 alternative view. And but then you got to think about once you 1007 01:04:12,809 --> 01:04:17,609 put those tools in place, those same tools can easily be 20 1008 01:04:17,609 --> 01:04:20,969 years from now turned around and used for terrible things against 1009 01:04:20,969 --> 01:04:25,349 yourself. And I think that in if you taking that example from 1010 01:04:26,489 --> 01:04:29,999 just about about same sex marriage, same thing can can be 1011 01:04:29,999 --> 01:04:34,019 said for most civil rights. Most of the civil rights that 1012 01:04:34,019 --> 01:04:38,849 minorities and disenfranchised populations experienced today 1013 01:04:39,359 --> 01:04:44,309 weren't one because the opposing views were banned from being 1014 01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:48,479 heard they were won based on the merits of the argument. And that 1015 01:04:48,479 --> 01:04:52,799 and you can't you can't judge the merits of an argument unless 1016 01:04:52,799 --> 01:04:55,079 you see how bad the other side is. 1017 01:04:55,590 --> 01:04:58,170 So okay, so what you're basically saying that Dave, is 1018 01:04:58,170 --> 01:05:01,590 that you can have podcasts out there. That incredibly racist, 1019 01:05:01,590 --> 01:05:07,320 anti semitic threatened violence about about other people. And a, 1020 01:05:07,470 --> 01:05:11,850 that's great. And B, we should encourage that and see we should 1021 01:05:11,850 --> 01:05:15,030 be putting those podcasts in front of other people. 1022 01:05:15,059 --> 01:05:17,699 No, no, that's where I stand. No, 1023 01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:20,969 I'm not saying with any sense whatsoever. No one's 1024 01:05:22,020 --> 01:05:25,320 we have an index. We're not putting anything in front of 1025 01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:30,450 anybody. We have an API. The thinking has to change. James 1026 01:05:30,450 --> 01:05:35,550 from a podcast app is this. Why isn't there a podcast app that 1027 01:05:35,550 --> 01:05:39,840 is just for music? Why is there one that's just for, for 1028 01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,890 racists, and white, anyone can make any, any app they want. 1029 01:05:44,220 --> 01:05:47,310 Now, they may run into some different issues in their 1030 01:05:47,310 --> 01:05:50,820 presentation of the content, but I have nothing to do with that I 1031 01:05:50,820 --> 01:05:53,700 feel the American dollar is is should have come with a warning 1032 01:05:53,700 --> 01:05:58,230 label. It doesn't. But you know, a warning label, this is fake. 1033 01:05:58,260 --> 01:06:02,310 This is this is not real money. This is a bunch of digits. So 1034 01:06:02,310 --> 01:06:05,430 there's a lot of these things. But we're not serving anything 1035 01:06:05,430 --> 01:06:09,360 to anybody. Well, that's not true. If you go to podcast 1036 01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,690 index.org. And you search you will get you will eventually get 1037 01:06:12,690 --> 01:06:13,260 whatever 1038 01:06:13,469 --> 01:06:16,079 you're looking for using a search. If you're using the 1039 01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:19,019 podcast indexes API, then you're searching that, 1040 01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:22,169 then you can filter you can filter it for whatever you want 1041 01:06:22,169 --> 01:06:23,489 your customers to have. 1042 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,630 So I guess what I'm that's and that's the hard job. Because 1043 01:06:27,630 --> 01:06:31,200 actually filtering, you know, filtering. 1044 01:06:33,449 --> 01:06:35,699 using Apple, yeah. 1045 01:06:37,710 --> 01:06:41,430 Yeah, just use overcast, just use overcast to be fine. And 1046 01:06:41,430 --> 01:06:45,900 look at the ground. It'll all go away. The evil, the evil, anti 1047 01:06:45,900 --> 01:06:49,710 semitic racist podcasts that harmed you so much by seeing its 1048 01:06:49,770 --> 01:06:53,460 album art. And hearing the first five minutes, 1049 01:06:54,210 --> 01:06:59,370 you might get over it, there's no racist. There's no rate like 1050 01:06:59,370 --> 01:07:01,830 podcast apps that only show racist stuff, because they would 1051 01:07:01,830 --> 01:07:04,410 only be they would only have five customers, you know, 1052 01:07:04,410 --> 01:07:08,700 there's like, there's just not that much out there. There's not 1053 01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:12,840 that many insane people out there to make that a viable 1054 01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:13,650 market strategy. 1055 01:07:13,770 --> 01:07:17,580 But the point is that the things that I say in any of my shows 1056 01:07:17,610 --> 01:07:19,170 offend lots of people. 1057 01:07:19,740 --> 01:07:20,100 Yeah. 1058 01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,690 Really offensive. And sometimes it's humorous. Sometimes it's 1059 01:07:24,690 --> 01:07:28,170 taken the wrong way. You've offended me a few times already 1060 01:07:28,170 --> 01:07:29,610 on this show. Looking 1061 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,050 back at your baby, 1062 01:07:32,730 --> 01:07:37,950 that well, the part of it did, but it's like it's almost like 1063 01:07:37,950 --> 01:07:41,940 you can't start. So that's this The issue is you can't start 1064 01:07:41,940 --> 01:07:45,780 with the filtering and the takedowns because then you have 1065 01:07:45,780 --> 01:07:49,890 to find once you start you have to find a place to stop. And 1066 01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,850 that the stopping point is way harder than the starting point 1067 01:07:53,850 --> 01:07:56,970 because I guarantee you I could go on to the pockets index right 1068 01:07:56,970 --> 01:08:02,070 now and probably find it you know, 10 or 20 problems 1069 01:08:02,070 --> 01:08:02,940 problematic 1070 01:08:02,940 --> 01:08:04,350 podcasts problematic 1071 01:08:04,349 --> 01:08:10,499 podcasts that offend me. Yes, offend me to no end. And I would 1072 01:08:10,499 --> 01:08:14,309 love to take them off. But I just can't click the button but 1073 01:08:14,309 --> 01:08:16,349 yeah, like okay, now I got to pick a stopping point 1074 01:08:16,380 --> 01:08:20,310 this Yes. And and, and the same goes for Well, I've been running 1075 01:08:20,310 --> 01:08:25,200 an experiment for three years no agenda, social COMM The mastodon 1076 01:08:26,190 --> 01:08:31,290 which has, I think 14,000 people who they're not all active, but 1077 01:08:31,410 --> 01:08:36,450 there's several 1000 who are active. And people report other 1078 01:08:36,450 --> 01:08:42,600 people all the time. What he said is racist. You know, this 1079 01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,950 is this is a misogynistic, this is porn, this is spam. This is 1080 01:08:46,950 --> 01:08:54,060 an ad. And I've never taken action on any of it. Ever. And 1081 01:08:54,090 --> 01:08:58,680 it just goes away. And people don't care after two minutes. If 1082 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:03,030 I start to silencing, deleting, suspending I have I have a whole 1083 01:09:03,030 --> 01:09:06,750 extra job, I'm just not gonna do it. And I get I get requests, 1084 01:09:06,780 --> 01:09:10,590 like serious requests, like emails hammering on me, you've 1085 01:09:10,590 --> 01:09:17,040 got to do something about this. I mean, like, we had a recent 1086 01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,760 little fractious going on with the, on the podcast index on 1087 01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:24,240 social, a little anger back and forth with a couple of people, 1088 01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,850 there's no action going to be taken. No one's going to block 1089 01:09:26,850 --> 01:09:28,320 anybody work it out. 1090 01:09:29,190 --> 01:09:33,510 Yeah, that the two there seems like there's two there's kind of 1091 01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:38,310 two separate categories. They're a thing of content that you deal 1092 01:09:38,310 --> 01:09:43,290 with and it's it's I do dangerous content, where you're 1093 01:09:43,290 --> 01:09:48,000 talking about some somebody advocating violence or and that 1094 01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,850 would be handled by you know, that's that's a legal issue and 1095 01:09:50,850 --> 01:09:54,630 you take you know, you take stuff off if you got a podcast 1096 01:09:54,630 --> 01:09:57,570 out there that's just Nina saying, hey, go kill this guy. I 1097 01:09:57,570 --> 01:10:00,150 mean, clearly that's, you know, that's that's an accurate An 1098 01:10:00,150 --> 01:10:05,280 item. But, you know, the the thing that bothers That one's to 1099 01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:07,800 me is kind of sort of a no brainer. I mean, you could take 1100 01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:11,640 stuff down because it's illegal. It's literally illegal. But the 1101 01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,020 other the part that bothers me more is just the whole this the 1102 01:10:16,020 --> 01:10:20,100 the misinformation, stuff side of things. Because there's, 1103 01:10:20,610 --> 01:10:24,960 again, history is our is the guide here. And if we go back, 1104 01:10:25,230 --> 01:10:29,760 you know, if we go back to the weapons of mass destruction in 1105 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:34,290 Iraq was complete bullshit, you know, and you had the the 1106 01:10:34,290 --> 01:10:38,010 Secretary of State up there at the UN, claiming a bunch of 1107 01:10:38,010 --> 01:10:40,860 stuff that ended up not being true. But some you know that you 1108 01:10:40,860 --> 01:10:43,920 had the antiwar.com guys who were saying this is completely 1109 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,420 false. Well, they could have been easily it that was before 1110 01:10:48,420 --> 01:10:49,200 social media 1111 01:10:49,230 --> 01:10:53,580 labeled information is thrown off, no, not easily, they would 1112 01:10:53,580 --> 01:10:54,990 have been without a doubt 1113 01:10:54,990 --> 01:10:55,350 then. 1114 01:10:55,950 --> 01:11:00,030 But that's only because we feel that it's so important to do 1115 01:11:00,030 --> 01:11:02,760 this on these particular systems. 1116 01:11:03,270 --> 01:11:05,580 I've got a bad I've got a better example. Here's a better 1117 01:11:05,580 --> 01:11:12,060 example. 911 truth years. Okay, so, I, the first time I ever 1118 01:11:12,060 --> 01:11:17,160 heard about 911 truth movement, was watching the loose change 1119 01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,320 documentary on Netflix, 1120 01:11:19,380 --> 01:11:20,130 oh, really. 1121 01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,460 It was on Netflix, they would never show that we 1122 01:11:23,460 --> 01:11:26,340 had a Google Video man remember those days Google. 1123 01:11:27,510 --> 01:11:31,650 But in the thing is, like this, the 911 truth or movement is 1124 01:11:31,650 --> 01:11:36,870 still just a tiny fraction of people. It's never the danger of 1125 01:11:36,870 --> 01:11:41,340 people seeing something and being influenced by it so much 1126 01:11:41,340 --> 01:11:45,810 to the point of bad things happening is so small, but we've 1127 01:11:45,810 --> 01:11:46,860 proven historically 1128 01:11:46,860 --> 01:11:50,940 that we're afraid the difficulty is, is that the algorithms that 1129 01:11:50,940 --> 01:11:57,120 you have in things like YouTube, and, and other places, end up 1130 01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:03,540 sort of ramping up the, the content that you see. So that 1131 01:12:03,540 --> 01:12:09,900 they, they, they begin to put more and more, you know, stuff 1132 01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:14,250 in it, you know, in front of you to the point where it begins to, 1133 01:12:15,420 --> 01:12:19,440 you know, begins to amplify those views that you have 1134 01:12:19,980 --> 01:12:22,080 a rabbit hole, it takes you down the rabbit hole 1135 01:12:22,110 --> 01:12:26,730 just difficult. Yeah, yeah. And so you've got that that age, I 1136 01:12:26,730 --> 01:12:30,360 think where I'm coming from here is not is not that they appear, 1137 01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,370 if you know what you're searching for, then you will 1138 01:12:32,370 --> 01:12:37,950 find it. It's the it's putting stuff in front of you. It's the 1139 01:12:38,010 --> 01:12:41,070 it's the algorithms and the tools that enable those 1140 01:12:41,070 --> 01:12:47,250 particular algorithms. It, you know, so that you do begin to 1141 01:12:48,030 --> 01:12:52,230 see more, you know, outlandish stuff. And then there's been 1142 01:12:52,230 --> 01:12:57,420 lots of pieces of research around how the Google algorithm 1143 01:12:58,710 --> 01:13:03,870 how the YouTube algorithm works, and, you know, people who watch 1144 01:13:03,870 --> 01:13:08,430 this, also watch this and so on. I think you know, that that's, 1145 01:13:08,490 --> 01:13:12,300 that's where it gets difficult. And, you know, and it's 1146 01:13:12,300 --> 01:13:14,550 interesting hearing you say, Well, of course, if it's 1147 01:13:14,550 --> 01:13:18,720 illegal, we'll take it down. Because that then that turns 1148 01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:24,060 into it being legal versus illegal. But and, you know, 1149 01:13:24,540 --> 01:13:29,490 it's, you know, there's various rules about all kinds of things. 1150 01:13:29,550 --> 01:13:30,150 All right, so 1151 01:13:30,959 --> 01:13:33,959 I'll give you the final word on this Jays. But now, now, I gotta 1152 01:13:33,959 --> 01:13:34,799 say a few things. 1153 01:13:35,369 --> 01:13:37,799 I'm looking, I'm looking forward to the final. Yeah, no, 1154 01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:38,910 of course, you're a guest. 1155 01:13:38,970 --> 01:13:41,040 We're gonna, we saw we're solvers here. 1156 01:13:41,070 --> 01:13:43,830 I'm gonna, I'm gonna slice you both down. And I'm gonna toss it 1157 01:13:43,830 --> 01:13:46,800 to you, James. So your bloody corpse can give the final word. 1158 01:13:48,570 --> 01:13:52,710 Go for it. All right, first of all, the only thing that should 1159 01:13:52,710 --> 01:13:56,220 be labeled on social media is the algorithms themselves, 1160 01:13:56,220 --> 01:14:00,540 because what you just described is not is much more dangerous, 1161 01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:05,730 and had adverse effects on people's health and sanity and 1162 01:14:05,730 --> 01:14:11,760 state of mind. And personality. And general life is the 1163 01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:16,050 algorithms of social media used versus Stumbling on a search 1164 01:14:16,050 --> 01:14:21,150 where some kkk Nazi quadroon podcast pops up that you're 1165 01:14:21,150 --> 01:14:26,970 probably not going to get sucked into Heil Hitler. But it was 1166 01:14:26,970 --> 01:14:30,060 Dave who said it. Of course, if it's something illegal, we'll 1167 01:14:30,060 --> 01:14:32,760 take it off. You didn't hear me pipe in there? Because I would 1168 01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:36,000 really have to, you know, I'm willing to go to court, 1169 01:14:36,030 --> 01:14:41,670 depending on you know, our resources. Because Yeah, I'm not 1170 01:14:41,670 --> 01:14:45,420 doing anything. I'm hosting an index. We're not telling anybody 1171 01:14:45,420 --> 01:14:48,570 to go shoot anybody. That's an mp3 file. You can find that over 1172 01:14:48,570 --> 01:14:51,330 there. And you could listen to it on that on that platform. I 1173 01:14:51,330 --> 01:14:57,240 have nothing to do with this. Go away from me. Secondly, I grew 1174 01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:02,430 up in a military intelligence family. The simple good old days 1175 01:15:02,430 --> 01:15:06,420 of news was one and all this information to everybody on 1176 01:15:06,420 --> 01:15:10,710 television today, as half of them are ex CIA, FBI agents 1177 01:15:10,710 --> 01:15:14,520 talking crap on the news that this information is in the 1178 01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,090 system that is telling you to shut up. And it's telling you 1179 01:15:18,090 --> 01:15:21,240 that you can't talk that way, because the official word is 1180 01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,140 this. And you yourself did a version of a James, you know, 1181 01:15:25,140 --> 01:15:28,260 climate change is settled case, there's nothing left to discuss. 1182 01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:31,500 But that's not actually the discussion. Is it? Now, the 1183 01:15:31,500 --> 01:15:34,470 discussion is, and that's, that's why it's so dangerous. 1184 01:15:34,770 --> 01:15:39,360 The discussion has been moved from climate change your climate 1185 01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:44,010 denier versus, well, let's take a look at what's really causing 1186 01:15:44,010 --> 01:15:47,640 it, how we can really affect it. What these particular plans 1187 01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,550 entail, none of that is discussed is just shut up and 1188 01:15:50,550 --> 01:15:55,020 put under a big blanket, and you can't talk anymore. And as long 1189 01:15:55,020 --> 01:15:58,800 as people commit the narcissistic acts of needing to 1190 01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:03,180 have a large audience, or thinking they have one, which 1191 01:16:03,180 --> 01:16:05,700 you don't really on, I don't think I think a lot of your 1192 01:16:05,700 --> 01:16:09,780 followers are probably up, I have a lot of bots, for sure. 1193 01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:16,710 And if you are able to go over to a different platform, such as 1194 01:16:16,740 --> 01:16:24,240 the Federated universe of sites, or podcasting, I'm perfectly 1195 01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:30,600 okay with us being where we are with 40% of the market. And I 1196 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:34,560 don't care if Apple supports the namespace, I really don't, 1197 01:16:35,250 --> 01:16:38,280 there's going to be enough people who want to hear 1198 01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:42,450 podcasts, any podcasts have access to it, they'll make their 1199 01:16:42,450 --> 01:16:46,080 own decisions. And if an app is too dangerous for them, because 1200 01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,200 it shows them the full search results, they can either find 1201 01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:53,670 one that doesn't or shockingly build one themselves. And that's 1202 01:16:53,670 --> 01:16:57,690 where we need to move people. James Cridland for the last 1203 01:16:57,690 --> 01:16:58,110 word. 1204 01:17:00,990 --> 01:17:13,170 I, I certainly don't want to turn your views down at all. Do 1205 01:17:13,170 --> 01:17:13,650 I say? 1206 01:17:14,850 --> 01:17:18,330 Whatever you want, James, I'm just unloading on you, man. It 1207 01:17:18,330 --> 01:17:18,690 just didn't 1208 01:17:19,589 --> 01:17:24,089 take my Take. Take Take my approach. James. I've never I've 1209 01:17:24,089 --> 01:17:27,749 never let lack of knowledge of a topic stop me from having 1210 01:17:27,749 --> 01:17:31,649 completely unjustified strong opinions about that topic. 1211 01:17:35,310 --> 01:17:36,150 Well, but but 1212 01:17:36,150 --> 01:17:38,670 I love that we can have this conversation. I'm not quite sure 1213 01:17:38,700 --> 01:17:43,680 how we got here. But I think it's worth discussing. Because 1214 01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,050 this really is what we're talking about here. What we're 1215 01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:50,730 building here is a place where there's just a lot more 1216 01:17:50,730 --> 01:17:53,340 flexibility. And it's not even, 1217 01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:56,760 it's really important Unless Unless just unless just be 1218 01:17:56,760 --> 01:18:00,690 really clear. By the way, the podcast index is a conversation 1219 01:18:00,690 --> 01:18:06,000 around censorship or not censoring, or however you want 1220 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:09,840 to say this right? The podcast namespace, nothing to do with 1221 01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:14,370 that, right? Oh, yes, yes. All is all about making podcasting 1222 01:18:14,370 --> 01:18:18,450 better for everybody. And it has nothing to do with content. It's 1223 01:18:18,450 --> 01:18:22,050 all about the it's all about adding additional features and 1224 01:18:22,050 --> 01:18:23,250 everything else. So that's 1225 01:18:23,250 --> 01:18:26,910 why Yeah, that's why I didn't respond to Brian London's issue. 1226 01:18:26,910 --> 01:18:29,700 I just, I just left it alone. I'm like, this is probably just 1227 01:18:29,700 --> 01:18:31,230 not the right place for this issue. 1228 01:18:31,499 --> 01:18:33,989 Yeah. So what was so whether or not there's a conversation 1229 01:18:33,989 --> 01:18:39,479 around around, you know, taking legal podcasts down? Actually, 1230 01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:42,299 what we really want is we really want people like Apple to 1231 01:18:42,299 --> 01:18:46,739 support the podcast namespace because it's that that will help 1232 01:18:46,769 --> 01:18:52,289 innovate and move us forward. So we should we should be working 1233 01:18:52,289 --> 01:18:53,849 on that, as far as I'm concerned. 1234 01:18:54,449 --> 01:18:59,879 Well, I am presenting to the Apple podcast team in January 1235 01:18:59,879 --> 01:19:00,989 the namespace. 1236 01:19:01,890 --> 01:19:03,030 Very cool. Yeah. 1237 01:19:04,050 --> 01:19:05,280 Yeah. But 1238 01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:13,110 it is my belief they are working on podcasting, podcast plus, and 1239 01:19:13,110 --> 01:19:17,670 they are working on I made him I said to them quite clearly, you 1240 01:19:17,670 --> 01:19:23,130 know, good luck with competing with Spotify. My recommendation 1241 01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:26,940 is get on a different battlefield, brother. Come on, 1242 01:19:27,390 --> 01:19:28,920 come over here with the red coats. 1243 01:19:29,490 --> 01:19:34,470 You know what I think that Adam that Apple podcasts ought to be 1244 01:19:34,470 --> 01:19:37,680 doing. They should be doing two things really easy 1245 01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:41,850 straightforward for them. Number one is for them to turn on paid 1246 01:19:41,850 --> 01:19:45,180 for podcasts. Now you or I might not want to do a paid for 1247 01:19:45,180 --> 01:19:50,010 podcast but the the benefit that Apple has is that they already 1248 01:19:50,010 --> 01:19:53,340 have all of the tax and all of the payments and everything else 1249 01:19:53,490 --> 01:19:57,570 set up because of their app store. So they can very easily 1250 01:19:57,570 --> 01:20:01,680 turn on if you want to listen to this podcast. $1 an episode or 1251 01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:05,490 it's $1, for you to get, you know, the next 10 shows or 1252 01:20:05,490 --> 01:20:07,950 whatever it is. So they can easily do that. That will be 1253 01:20:07,950 --> 01:20:12,510 number one. And number two would be an Android app. Because it 1254 01:20:12,510 --> 01:20:16,980 turns out that 75% of phones in the world, our Android apps, and 1255 01:20:16,980 --> 01:20:20,340 the Android apps that we have, with a possible exception of 1256 01:20:20,340 --> 01:20:26,160 Google podcasts, are really not very good. And so it would be 1257 01:20:26,460 --> 01:20:31,050 really helpful, I think, if Apple were to do an Android app, 1258 01:20:31,050 --> 01:20:34,050 but the only reason that they would do an Android app is if 1259 01:20:34,050 --> 01:20:35,400 they could earn some money out of it. 1260 01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:38,820 But why? Why would they have to do their thing? There's plenty 1261 01:20:38,820 --> 01:20:41,730 of great Android apps. Why would they? Why did they? Why do we 1262 01:20:41,730 --> 01:20:43,920 need that? Who needs that? 1263 01:20:44,490 --> 01:20:47,010 I mean, there are plenty of great Android apps, but 1264 01:20:47,100 --> 01:20:49,650 everybody just wants to use everybody talks about Apple 1265 01:20:49,650 --> 01:20:54,120 podcasts as if it is podcasts. And I know, 1266 01:20:55,230 --> 01:21:00,300 a feeling you get because I I really, I had a nice chat with 1267 01:21:00,300 --> 01:21:07,500 James Boggs. Um, he reached out. Yeah, no, we talk once a year 1268 01:21:07,500 --> 01:21:12,780 maybe. Any he checked in with me? And I told him that he right 1269 01:21:12,780 --> 01:21:18,480 after the Sphinx demo, and believe me, I think he's very 1270 01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:23,430 interested in that. But you know, the, the issue is, micro 1271 01:21:23,430 --> 01:21:26,850 payments is just the dollar. The and the system is 1272 01:21:27,090 --> 01:21:29,490 so hugely, that's a hugely complicated thing. 1273 01:21:29,490 --> 01:21:33,060 But But I think they also Yeah, that's not their customer there. 1274 01:21:33,510 --> 01:21:36,390 Now look at what they've done with professional audio and 1275 01:21:36,390 --> 01:21:39,540 video they've given up or semi professional, they've kind of 1276 01:21:39,540 --> 01:21:44,280 given up on it. Yeah, let's come back with a with a $50,000 1277 01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:48,420 machine, you can do anything on. But meanwhile, all the the high 1278 01:21:48,420 --> 01:21:52,110 end audio guys, I know, all moved to Windows A while ago, 1279 01:21:53,310 --> 01:21:57,240 many of them moving to Linux, there's not enough for me on on 1280 01:21:57,240 --> 01:22:00,840 Linux to do what I do in particular. But their customer 1281 01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:04,680 is the person who has the phone. And podcasting was doing just 1282 01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:09,840 fine. Without apple. We had we had apps being created. I think 1283 01:22:09,870 --> 01:22:13,470 it would be hard, actually hard for Apple to catch up on 1284 01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:17,820 podcasts. This is like iTunes on Windows, you know, it's like it 1285 01:22:17,820 --> 01:22:20,940 wouldn't it never really caught on it was a piece of crap, but 1286 01:22:20,940 --> 01:22:24,450 you needed it for the iPhone. I just don't see the importance 1287 01:22:24,450 --> 01:22:29,640 anymore of apple and the industry. The hosting companies 1288 01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:34,110 in particular, and this is the whole conversation that Todd and 1289 01:22:34,110 --> 01:22:37,290 Rob were having is they've basically been waiting for 10 1290 01:22:37,290 --> 01:22:42,180 years for Apple to do one thing. And oh, yeah, now just by 1291 01:22:42,180 --> 01:22:46,380 starting Apple is calling us. And I said, Hey, man, here's 1292 01:22:46,380 --> 01:22:51,090 what I know. I know that NPR, who you featured from day one, 1293 01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:53,880 before you were at the company, instead of the independent 1294 01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,660 podcast, which is okay. But you know, you went highbrow High 1295 01:22:57,660 --> 01:23:03,150 Road with all the NPR PBS stuff, and which, you know, kudos to 1296 01:23:03,180 --> 01:23:06,870 Tony Khan and everyone who worked on getting NPR in, but 1297 01:23:07,260 --> 01:23:10,980 they can't get the season tag they want, we're creating it. So 1298 01:23:10,980 --> 01:23:12,660 we're gonna write this for them, we're putting it in the 1299 01:23:12,660 --> 01:23:15,990 namespace, and we're gonna have app supporting it. And they have 1300 01:23:15,990 --> 01:23:18,780 their own publishing system, they're going to support it. And 1301 01:23:18,780 --> 01:23:22,440 they might be telling their listeners to go listen on, on 1302 01:23:22,440 --> 01:23:27,180 pod friend or pod verse, or podcast addict or, or any of 1303 01:23:27,180 --> 01:23:31,620 these different apps. So up to you. The pressure is going to 1304 01:23:31,620 --> 01:23:37,440 come from their customers, not from podcast hosts, and not even 1305 01:23:37,440 --> 01:23:41,820 for me. But there's competition out there. And these web apps, 1306 01:23:42,090 --> 01:23:45,660 they work great on Android. And they suck on the iPhone, but 1307 01:23:45,660 --> 01:23:50,010 they work fantastic. On Android. They really do is Apple hates 1308 01:23:50,010 --> 01:23:58,710 web apps. What a farce that is. So tell me, what is this? Why is 1309 01:23:58,710 --> 01:24:01,230 this still a thing? Why can't people get over this? Why does 1310 01:24:01,230 --> 01:24:04,920 it always have to be apple? We need Apple, Apple, I support it. 1311 01:24:05,190 --> 01:24:07,770 I just don't see why anyone cares anymore. 1312 01:24:09,060 --> 01:24:12,870 I mean, I'm I guess I'm one of the people who has been sort of 1313 01:24:12,870 --> 01:24:18,480 driving against Apple for quite some time. Very interesting to 1314 01:24:18,480 --> 01:24:22,950 me, it's a bit weird playing the other side. But you can but you 1315 01:24:22,950 --> 01:24:28,110 can certainly see that, you know, the the addition of Apple 1316 01:24:28,110 --> 01:24:34,050 podcasts to the Apple to the iPhone had a big effect on the 1317 01:24:34,050 --> 01:24:37,170 amount of downloads on the amount of people that knew what 1318 01:24:37,170 --> 01:24:43,230 a podcast was. And it would be really helpful. Whether that to 1319 01:24:43,230 --> 01:24:47,880 be, you know, available on the Android side of it as well. I 1320 01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:48,990 would also say what 1321 01:24:48,990 --> 01:24:52,050 part what part James, What part do you want on the Android side 1322 01:24:52,050 --> 01:24:52,260 what 1323 01:24:52,260 --> 01:24:54,810 what is the important part what is so different about that 1324 01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:59,280 because because you have a bunch of podcasters and there and they 1325 01:24:59,370 --> 01:25:02,490 all don't any better, but you have a bunch of podcasters all 1326 01:25:02,490 --> 01:25:06,570 saying listen to us on Apple podcasts to the point where 1327 01:25:06,870 --> 01:25:10,290 granny with her android phone says, Oh, well, I can't listen 1328 01:25:10,290 --> 01:25:12,240 to that, because that's on the apple thing. 1329 01:25:13,050 --> 01:25:18,030 Okay, so a, you know, a, you've got to go help your granny or 1330 01:25:18,030 --> 01:25:29,760 you're just a bad grandson. Very bad grandson. B. Once we publish 1331 01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:33,810 the payment API, we're almost any podcast app can tie in 1332 01:25:34,530 --> 01:25:37,470 Bitcoin lightning payments, I'm jumping the gun, but I'm saying 1333 01:25:37,470 --> 01:25:38,310 once we do that, 1334 01:25:39,030 --> 01:25:40,080 a 1335 01:25:40,830 --> 01:25:44,850 podcasters are not going to say, go get to go and tell granted to 1336 01:25:44,850 --> 01:25:48,240 get the podcast, I think I say go get this podcast app, and 1337 01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:51,450 then flash the QR code with this. They're going to push 1338 01:25:51,450 --> 01:25:53,310 people towards apps that make the money. 1339 01:25:53,820 --> 01:25:56,490 Yeah, the podcasters will follow them. The money Oh, 1340 01:25:56,490 --> 01:25:59,220 yeah, they'll follow it put it when I say you can make more 1341 01:25:59,220 --> 01:26:06,240 money. With with 5000 downloads, what you would call five, you 1342 01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:08,790 can make more money with lightning payments, then then 1343 01:26:08,790 --> 01:26:12,690 you're going to get from any ads in your podcast, guaranteed. 1344 01:26:14,430 --> 01:26:19,170 The sc sc this has the same, essentially the same thing that 1345 01:26:19,170 --> 01:26:24,420 happened with Google Reader. A good RSS feeds were a huge thing 1346 01:26:24,420 --> 01:26:28,320 at the time. You know, we're we're a fledgling technology. 1347 01:26:28,590 --> 01:26:30,990 And then Google Reader came on the scene. And everybody 1348 01:26:30,990 --> 01:26:35,550 thought, Oh, well, this Google Reader is Newser is RSS. I mean, 1349 01:26:35,550 --> 01:26:37,830 that's they thought it was the entire thing. And it was a 1350 01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:41,970 horrible interface. The UI was terrible. It was a piece of it 1351 01:26:41,970 --> 01:26:45,660 was a piece of garbage, really. And then as soon as Google 1352 01:26:45,660 --> 01:26:51,810 Reader disappeared, you had a resurgence of new innovative 1353 01:26:51,810 --> 01:26:57,840 apps like new, does it feed Ben feed Ben and Feedly. And I mean, 1354 01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:01,200 just like 10 of them popped up overnight. And some of them are 1355 01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:05,880 so good now. And you got netnewswire came back? It's 1356 01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:09,930 actually a thing again, yeah. Let's see, the problem with 1357 01:27:09,930 --> 01:27:15,060 Apple podcasts is when it's not just them, it's just a genre 1358 01:27:15,060 --> 01:27:18,840 defining thing is when some some big player comes in there and 1359 01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:23,130 just plants the flag at the very beginning, it can really damage 1360 01:27:23,130 --> 01:27:25,260 the market for long periods of time. 1361 01:27:25,950 --> 01:27:29,520 Well, Apple has no beef with me, because they did us a huge 1362 01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:34,620 favor. The beauty of RSS in general is that never went away, 1363 01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:38,760 the readers went away. And the methodology of a timeline was 1364 01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,450 adopted by the social networks, Twitter is, after all, at its 1365 01:27:42,450 --> 01:27:46,950 core, a podcasting company. So the idea of subscribing to feeds 1366 01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:51,960 with content was, you know, has always been there. And what 1367 01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:55,440 didn't have what we did not have, at the time was an 1368 01:27:55,440 --> 01:28:01,500 incentive that we didn't have app stores. an incentive for the 1369 01:28:01,500 --> 01:28:06,150 developers to build these experiences. And this is what 1370 01:28:06,150 --> 01:28:10,890 I'm pushing for, and what we've been trying to do it and I even 1371 01:28:10,890 --> 01:28:15,960 heard Todd and Rob, talk about, almost as if it was a crazy 1372 01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:18,660 thing for someone to say like, we have no relationship with the 1373 01:28:18,660 --> 01:28:26,610 podcast apps. And I thought to myself, How sad because you 1374 01:28:26,610 --> 01:28:30,810 couldn't, you could once you have value flowing, that you can 1375 01:28:30,810 --> 01:28:34,320 easily disperse back and forth. And micro payments, which has 1376 01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:38,460 been a big thing people have talked about for 20 years, we 1377 01:28:38,460 --> 01:28:41,460 actually have it working. When you have these micro payments. 1378 01:28:41,670 --> 01:28:44,220 Yeah, you're gonna have relationship with with the app 1379 01:28:44,220 --> 01:28:46,800 developers, because they're going to say, Hey, you know 1380 01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:50,280 what, maybe you can get half off hosting, if you kick in 1% goes 1381 01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:53,520 back to your hosting company, maybe you want to have the 1382 01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:57,600 hosting company wants the app developer to highlight certain 1383 01:28:58,440 --> 01:29:01,950 certain podcasts that are their customers, maybe they should 1384 01:29:01,950 --> 01:29:06,660 have their own app and make their own money on it. Once you 1385 01:29:06,660 --> 01:29:09,060 put money into the equation, Apple doesn't make money on 1386 01:29:09,060 --> 01:29:11,880 podcasts cost them a lot of dough to host it to have the 1387 01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:18,180 whole team there. But they sell devices. So what's been lacking 1388 01:29:18,180 --> 01:29:21,270 is that infrastructure and so I agree. And when you say, and 1389 01:29:21,270 --> 01:29:25,320 this is what I would hope would not happen. Because the 1390 01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:29,550 inclination is think if Apple made pot for pay podcast, it 1391 01:29:29,550 --> 01:29:33,030 would be very disappointing to me because I know that they 1392 01:29:33,030 --> 01:29:39,630 would say All right, here's 199 and episode, hell where and the 1393 01:29:39,630 --> 01:29:40,710 whole the whole premise 1394 01:29:40,710 --> 01:29:42,120 of why with 30% what 1395 01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:45,480 besides that the whole premise of value for value is what is it 1396 01:29:45,480 --> 01:29:50,070 worth to you make it make it open ended it make it variable 1397 01:29:50,070 --> 01:29:52,860 from day to day, make it variable from minute to minute, 1398 01:29:52,890 --> 01:29:56,250 I'm liking it a little bit more, it's more value to me. This is 1399 01:29:56,250 --> 01:29:59,340 the conversation that's changing and what we're doing here today 1400 01:30:00,510 --> 01:30:04,470 We're going to do it for music, we're going to use a similar 1401 01:30:04,470 --> 01:30:06,960 infrastruc. I'm telling you, Dave, right now cancel the next 1402 01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:08,970 10 years of your life, I have plans. 1403 01:30:09,419 --> 01:30:11,399 Alright, wait, let me do, let me pull my calendar 1404 01:30:11,459 --> 01:30:15,299 we're gonna do we can do it for music, we have a built in 1405 01:30:15,299 --> 01:30:20,609 royalty system that has never existed before this anywhere, it 1406 01:30:20,609 --> 01:30:25,049 can actually function in real time. With any type of content 1407 01:30:25,049 --> 01:30:29,009 source, the only hook is that it's based on value for value 1408 01:30:29,009 --> 01:30:32,909 and not on set pricing. And it's and therefore it's also 1409 01:30:32,909 --> 01:30:36,239 voluntary, because you can assign value zero, but then what 1410 01:30:36,239 --> 01:30:41,699 are you doing with your time. So this is my dream of the future. 1411 01:30:42,029 --> 01:30:45,539 And without people like you, James Cridland, we're not going 1412 01:30:45,539 --> 01:30:48,809 to be able to communicate it. So what can I do to suck up to you 1413 01:30:48,809 --> 01:30:49,529 even more? 1414 01:30:52,740 --> 01:30:53,940 You got everybody now that 1415 01:30:53,940 --> 01:30:56,940 used to navigate you thoroughly now that you thoroughly 1416 01:30:57,390 --> 01:30:59,970 understand lightning, or read an article. But 1417 01:31:04,380 --> 01:31:07,380 when I do thoroughly understand lightning, I certainly will 1418 01:31:07,410 --> 01:31:11,010 write I really I really want to do. James, I really want to set 1419 01:31:11,010 --> 01:31:14,730 you up with that. I will make it my personal mission to see that 1420 01:31:14,730 --> 01:31:18,300 you have experienced this. Because once you do, and once 1421 01:31:18,300 --> 01:31:20,340 you put because I want you to put pod land on there. 1422 01:31:20,730 --> 01:31:23,100 And it'll blow your mind. You see this 1423 01:31:23,130 --> 01:31:26,610 this? Yeah, it's micropayments. But it's coming in every minute. 1424 01:31:27,090 --> 01:31:30,930 Like, Oh, my God, it just makes you happy. And all you know, all 1425 01:31:30,930 --> 01:31:36,060 you know, is you just got to get a multiplier. So either more 1426 01:31:36,060 --> 01:31:39,270 people listening or get them listening longer. It's one of 1427 01:31:39,270 --> 01:31:40,050 two things, 1428 01:31:40,860 --> 01:31:45,330 I can see that and I think one of the things that, you know, is 1429 01:31:45,330 --> 01:31:49,620 really needed in this space is to make it really simple. And 1430 01:31:49,620 --> 01:31:53,100 the fact that you have to sign up the fact that you have to buy 1431 01:31:53,100 --> 01:32:00,300 some Bitcoin, the fact that it was Satoshi. And then and then 1432 01:32:00,300 --> 01:32:03,060 you need this app. And then you need this weird code. And then 1433 01:32:03,060 --> 01:32:06,810 you need the world's most complicated thing. But I think 1434 01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:06,900 I'm 1435 01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:09,270 ready. I'm making it sound. Yeah. 1436 01:32:09,270 --> 01:32:13,350 James, when when we first started podcasting, people had 1437 01:32:13,350 --> 01:32:17,430 to click on this button, this big page code came up, he had to 1438 01:32:17,430 --> 01:32:21,450 copy the great copy the link, go over to your app, paste it in 1439 01:32:21,450 --> 01:32:25,620 there. Oh, crap, I left on download all episodes at once. 1440 01:32:25,620 --> 01:32:29,970 Now I have no internet. Granny is crying. 1441 01:32:33,780 --> 01:32:37,770 I remember fiddling around with you know, iPod back in late 1442 01:32:37,770 --> 01:32:43,500 2004, early 2000. Sure. And that was not anywhere near as as 1443 01:32:43,500 --> 01:32:47,430 simple as you know, pocket cast is or anything else. So yeah, 1444 01:32:47,430 --> 01:32:50,670 absolutely. And it's that that's actually needed here in terms of 1445 01:32:50,670 --> 01:32:54,540 the micropayment stuff, in terms of just keeping things simple. 1446 01:32:55,380 --> 01:32:58,530 Yeah. What do you think about this data? When does that? Do 1447 01:32:58,530 --> 01:33:01,200 it? tag? it? What do you think about that stick sticking that 1448 01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:02,940 on the end of the download? 1449 01:33:07,620 --> 01:33:09,150 I, 1450 01:33:09,270 --> 01:33:13,170 I see your the stick the parameter on the end of the 1451 01:33:14,790 --> 01:33:17,760 explain, we're talking about Dave set it up because people 1452 01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:18,570 need to understand. 1453 01:33:19,860 --> 01:33:25,290 Okay. Well, you know, it's, it's a way to differentiate and 1454 01:33:26,100 --> 01:33:32,130 excuse me, You caught me off guard, it is a way to create a 1455 01:33:32,130 --> 01:33:35,910 code that is completely anonymous, that gets attached to 1456 01:33:35,910 --> 01:33:42,840 the end of every download, so that the CDN or the host can 1457 01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:50,040 accurately differentiate individual users. And individual 1458 01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:54,870 listens. And in a way that is completely anonymous. That's 1459 01:33:54,900 --> 01:33:56,370 that's the that's the idea. 1460 01:33:56,910 --> 01:34:01,200 Yeah, so as as pod new said yesterday, so good parameter, it 1461 01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:04,800 goes on the end of the audio. And the idea is to produce if 1462 01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:07,950 I've understood it right to produce a random grid per 1463 01:34:07,950 --> 01:34:12,450 enclosure, so per individual episode of a show, which is 1464 01:34:12,450 --> 01:34:15,240 consistent for every listener, so that you can actually 1465 01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:20,160 understand therefore, exactly how many listeners you have, 1466 01:34:20,190 --> 01:34:25,380 assuming that every single podcast app does this. Yeah. But 1467 01:34:25,530 --> 01:34:26,640 yeah, exactly. 1468 01:34:27,210 --> 01:34:31,680 Yep. And that's so that's, you know, all the other, all the 1469 01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:36,840 other. Let's just say I be based, things stay the same. So 1470 01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:40,560 you're still you know, you're still saying, well, you need to 1471 01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:43,200 download at least enough content to listen to the first minute 1472 01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:46,380 and you accounts and you listen to after 24 hours and those 1473 01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:49,830 those sorts of things, all this stuff. Assuming all of that 1474 01:34:49,830 --> 01:34:53,670 stuff stays the same. This just solve the problem of being of 1475 01:34:53,700 --> 01:34:57,210 differentiation with people being behind a NAT firewall and, 1476 01:34:57,510 --> 01:34:59,880 and all these kinds of things, which is a real issue. I mean, 1477 01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:04,890 In in my office, we have, you know, 100 people here and you 1478 01:35:04,890 --> 01:35:08,460 may and probably 50% of them have iPhones and a lot of them 1479 01:35:08,490 --> 01:35:12,690 podcast. So literally, it looks like it's all the same. It's all 1480 01:35:12,690 --> 01:35:16,860 one big, you know, one person downloading the same NP and mp3 1481 01:35:16,860 --> 01:35:22,050 57 times. But what I mean, do you? Do you think that's a thing 1482 01:35:22,050 --> 01:35:25,530 that the open podcast analytic working group could pick up and 1483 01:35:25,530 --> 01:35:27,870 look at? Or? I mean, I 1484 01:35:27,870 --> 01:35:32,610 think I think anything that makes the job of analytics 1485 01:35:33,390 --> 01:35:38,700 easier and better is a good plan. Mostly analytics is driven 1486 01:35:38,700 --> 01:35:45,270 by advertisers, not necessarily by by podcasters, because, hey, 1487 01:35:45,270 --> 01:35:48,810 there you go. Because as Adam has already said, you know, he, 1488 01:35:48,870 --> 01:35:52,260 you're not that interested in your stats, you're more, you're 1489 01:35:52,260 --> 01:35:54,960 more interested in everything else that you actually get back. 1490 01:35:55,350 --> 01:35:59,430 So in terms of that, do the advertisers, do the advertisers 1491 01:35:59,430 --> 01:36:03,090 care enough about this sort of thing? is an interesting 1492 01:36:03,090 --> 01:36:07,980 question. For me, I look at the IB stuff. And you know, I think 1493 01:36:07,980 --> 01:36:13,170 that the IB is good, I think it does a good, it does a good job, 1494 01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:17,790 it's quite slow. It's not fast enough for me, and a little bit 1495 01:36:18,060 --> 01:36:21,150 disappointed at the fact that it costs so much to be involved. 1496 01:36:22,350 --> 01:36:25,830 And that it's a bit sort of opaque. But I think it's a very 1497 01:36:25,830 --> 01:36:29,790 useful thing to have a standard way of talking about a download 1498 01:36:29,850 --> 01:36:34,260 and a play, and a standard way of, you know, of doing all of 1499 01:36:34,260 --> 01:36:39,060 that. If this good. Helps, then I think that's great. I should 1500 01:36:39,150 --> 01:36:44,460 probably also say, once more of our devices, move over to IP 1501 01:36:44,460 --> 01:36:48,690 version six, then we've kind of got that good anyway, because we 1502 01:36:48,690 --> 01:36:51,810 ended up changing all rather it changes that because we end up 1503 01:36:51,810 --> 01:36:57,510 changing IP addresses and all kinds of things. So there's 1504 01:36:57,510 --> 01:36:59,820 gonna be the IP version six. 1505 01:36:59,850 --> 01:37:02,250 Yeah, that's gonna be a lot of Nat though, even with ipv6 1506 01:37:02,250 --> 01:37:04,110 because of security issues with Nat 1507 01:37:04,140 --> 01:37:05,250 There you go. You see 1508 01:37:05,340 --> 01:37:09,480 ipv6? Am I gonna see that before I die? I've been hearing about 1509 01:37:09,480 --> 01:37:11,520 this for 20 years. You're gonna 1510 01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:14,670 get your My, my network here. I've got it on my mobile phone. 1511 01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:16,770 I've got it on everything, I think Yeah. 1512 01:37:17,190 --> 01:37:21,300 Oh, man, you want to talk about making logs and mess? Up babies? 1513 01:37:21,300 --> 01:37:24,600 Yes, absolutely. It does get four and six mixing together. 1514 01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:25,440 It's like me. No. 1515 01:37:26,070 --> 01:37:28,770 And the weird thing is, is that your phone because of the 1516 01:37:28,770 --> 01:37:31,260 privacy, your phone and your laptop, and everything else 1517 01:37:31,260 --> 01:37:33,480 changes its IP? Six. 1518 01:37:33,510 --> 01:37:34,950 Yeah, 1519 01:37:35,250 --> 01:37:37,740 you know, address all the time. So it makes life really, really 1520 01:37:37,740 --> 01:37:42,540 hard. But yeah, I mean, I think I mean, I so I do my own stats 1521 01:37:42,570 --> 01:37:48,330 for my podcast. And for the pod news podcast, which is the daily 1522 01:37:48,330 --> 01:37:52,710 one. I do my own stats for that. And one of the things that I 1523 01:37:52,710 --> 01:37:57,960 don't want to end up doing is to have any others any unknowns. 1524 01:37:58,770 --> 01:38:02,730 And I also don't want to go down the easy job of saying that all 1525 01:38:02,730 --> 01:38:05,370 of these plays have come through Google Chrome or through 1526 01:38:05,370 --> 01:38:06,330 Firefox, right? 1527 01:38:07,440 --> 01:38:10,860 Because that's not that's not a platform. That's not a podcast 1528 01:38:10,860 --> 01:38:13,950 platform. That's just the this device that you're using, at the 1529 01:38:13,950 --> 01:38:17,850 end of the day, the bottom line for me, and I think you realize 1530 01:38:17,850 --> 01:38:20,550 this as well, James, and I've been out of the advertising game 1531 01:38:20,550 --> 01:38:23,160 for a long time, but was a big part of it for most of my 1532 01:38:23,160 --> 01:38:29,250 career. It doesn't really matter. As long as there's an 1533 01:38:29,250 --> 01:38:33,870 agreed to standard. And it's like Neil says, we all know it's 1534 01:38:33,900 --> 01:38:38,220 total horse crap. Everybody knows big secret. There are 1535 01:38:38,250 --> 01:38:44,520 actually some ways to influence it. I think radio, Arbitron 1536 01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:48,240 ratings are even funnier. The way those are put together. We 1537 01:38:48,240 --> 01:38:54,990 used to have a promotion right around radio sweeps at wh Tz in 1538 01:38:54,990 --> 01:38:59,430 New York. Because it's the art the Arbitron ratings, and 1539 01:38:59,490 --> 01:39:03,120 Arbitron would send people a diary. And you'd have to list in 1540 01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:06,360 your book. If you had you know what radio stations, you'd 1541 01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:08,970 listen to what time and for how long. So we would run a 1542 01:39:08,970 --> 01:39:15,000 promotion for we will give away watches the Armitron watch. So 1543 01:39:15,000 --> 01:39:17,940 we would keep promoting this. It sounds like arbitrage but we 1544 01:39:17,940 --> 01:39:21,000 were saying Armitron and that would put into everybody's head 1545 01:39:21,030 --> 01:39:23,640 Armitron armor. No ever heard that? Oh, yeah, that's a book. 1546 01:39:23,670 --> 01:39:29,580 Oh, yes. 100 and it works. It works. We actually bought the 1547 01:39:29,580 --> 01:39:31,500 watches. We wouldn't even take them for free. 1548 01:39:32,370 --> 01:39:32,910 Oh, wow. 1549 01:39:33,150 --> 01:39:34,440 Wow, that's clever. 1550 01:39:34,500 --> 01:39:38,340 But as long as everyone agrees on the one standard, then you're 1551 01:39:38,340 --> 01:39:43,830 golden and I think that ay ay ay b. And of course, they also get 1552 01:39:43,830 --> 01:39:46,920 to charge whatever they can charge, you know, to for their, 1553 01:39:47,340 --> 01:39:52,350 their lunches in Geneva. I mean, that's just how it works. So I'm 1554 01:39:52,380 --> 01:39:55,890 super happy with that. For us for the podcast index. I just 1555 01:39:55,890 --> 01:39:58,770 love that we are an ad hoc working group of a bunch of nut 1556 01:39:58,770 --> 01:40:03,150 jobs. opinion. And and sometimes we come up with stuff and then 1557 01:40:03,150 --> 01:40:06,210 you know, look at the namespace it's, it's not like it's not 1558 01:40:06,210 --> 01:40:08,610 Adam and Dave sitting in the corner. It's a whole bunch of 1559 01:40:08,610 --> 01:40:12,270 people. It's years and years of work of thinking that's gone 1560 01:40:12,270 --> 01:40:15,150 into it. We're just the Wrecking Crew. You know, we're in here. 1561 01:40:16,020 --> 01:40:18,930 We're the snowpiercer. We're the snow plow, and we're just okay, 1562 01:40:18,930 --> 01:40:20,520 we're just gonna go, we have. 1563 01:40:21,570 --> 01:40:25,590 I mean, except for some personal pride, nothing to lose. The 1564 01:40:25,590 --> 01:40:29,310 whole world is open to you, when you are not scared of being 1565 01:40:29,310 --> 01:40:35,970 wrong. Yes, I'm not scared of that at all. If the worst thing 1566 01:40:35,970 --> 01:40:38,550 that can happen if somebody says, You're an idiot, that was 1567 01:40:38,550 --> 01:40:41,010 a stupid idea, and we'll just drop it and go to the next one. 1568 01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:43,440 Right. Hmm. 1569 01:40:44,160 --> 01:40:45,450 So James Cridland, 1570 01:40:45,630 --> 01:40:46,560 it's a good place to be. 1571 01:40:47,610 --> 01:40:50,700 Man, thank you so much. We have to have you back again. Because 1572 01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:53,730 with you, we can get into some real deep philosophical stuff. 1573 01:40:53,730 --> 01:40:56,190 So when we feel smart again, we'll have to get you know. 1574 01:40:57,120 --> 01:40:59,460 It'll take a little bit that'll be a while. Yeah. Well, 1575 01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:02,700 and stop stealing our namespace segment. Man that really hurt. 1576 01:41:03,630 --> 01:41:14,160 Doing sexy names. Sexy namespace. Yeah. Couple of 1577 01:41:14,160 --> 01:41:17,460 donations to take care of, if you don't mind. For a moment, 1578 01:41:17,460 --> 01:41:19,860 James. Yeah, this is a value for value, the whole project has 1579 01:41:19,860 --> 01:41:25,650 value for value. So if you enjoy podcasts, index.org the API that 1580 01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:28,800 horribly racist, misogynistic search, you might use that from 1581 01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:34,500 time to time. More any of the apps, you know, support those 1582 01:41:34,500 --> 01:41:37,380 guys directly, of course, but if you maybe like this show, just 1583 01:41:37,380 --> 01:41:41,580 what we're discussing, turn that value into numbers and go to 1584 01:41:41,580 --> 01:41:45,000 podcast index.org. At the bottom of the big red Donate button, 1585 01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:48,810 you hit that that's all pay pal. We do have a lightning Bitcoin 1586 01:41:48,810 --> 01:41:51,330 payment there as well, which I think some people are using. I 1587 01:41:51,330 --> 01:41:55,110 have seen some stuff come in as appreciated. That'll be for the 1588 01:41:55,110 --> 01:42:00,270 future. And let's see if we had any. We had a great, great week 1589 01:42:00,270 --> 01:42:04,050 last week. I mean, some massive support coming in. How are we 1590 01:42:04,050 --> 01:42:04,950 doing this week? Dave? 1591 01:42:06,210 --> 01:42:12,210 It is a Monday. And we have zero donations. This is not 1592 01:42:12,210 --> 01:42:17,610 Christmas. So we had we did we did have to subscribe. 1593 01:42:20,250 --> 01:42:22,500 We got coal. Oh, we have subscriptions. 1594 01:42:22,830 --> 01:42:26,310 We will we had two subscription payments that came in my box one 1595 01:42:26,310 --> 01:42:29,580 for $5 and went for $10. Yeah, well, that keeps some fires from 1596 01:42:29,580 --> 01:42:29,910 us. Good 1597 01:42:29,940 --> 01:42:31,530 glow. Yes. Yeah. 1598 01:42:32,910 --> 01:42:35,790 I just got brought up one up a random piece of paper because we 1599 01:42:36,390 --> 01:42:38,490 have no, that's that's our coal. 1600 01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:41,970 Yeah, we'll probably have a double donation on on next 1601 01:42:41,970 --> 01:42:44,670 week's show. Because this as you said, this is only a few days 1602 01:42:44,670 --> 01:42:45,570 after last one. 1603 01:42:46,350 --> 01:42:49,140 Yeah, usually the donations they usually come in like maybe 1604 01:42:49,140 --> 01:42:51,540 Wednesday or Thursday. Yeah, right before the show. 1605 01:42:52,530 --> 01:42:57,030 James, what you're doing for for Christmas, man? You must be 1606 01:42:57,030 --> 01:42:59,340 weird there with the middle of the summer. 1607 01:43:00,120 --> 01:43:02,610 Yes, it's middle of the summer, which is very strange. So you 1608 01:43:02,610 --> 01:43:05,070 have all of these songs going Let it snow and then you look 1609 01:43:05,070 --> 01:43:08,670 out the window and it's 90 degrees. What on earth is going 1610 01:43:08,670 --> 01:43:15,720 on? So yeah, we are going we are spending four days in a nice 1611 01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:18,480 hotel somewhere which should beautiful should be good. Yeah, 1612 01:43:18,480 --> 01:43:22,710 right. Should be nice. In the in the hinterland of the of the 1613 01:43:22,710 --> 01:43:24,750 Queensland, Bush, so 1614 01:43:25,590 --> 01:43:26,220 nice. 1615 01:43:26,790 --> 01:43:29,700 Yeah. So you should be good. Looking forward to 1616 01:43:29,850 --> 01:43:34,620 congratulations on on your tremendous success. It is the 1617 01:43:34,620 --> 01:43:39,420 Bible to me for the daily read. I always go to my newsletters 1618 01:43:39,420 --> 01:43:44,100 folder first and pick it out. above anything else, and I 1619 01:43:44,100 --> 01:43:48,180 actually load images. So I make sure you can track me because I 1620 01:43:48,180 --> 01:43:51,060 want you to know that I'm reading your stuff. I don't do 1621 01:43:51,060 --> 01:43:54,720 that on any other pod newsletter, pod newsletters. 1622 01:43:55,650 --> 01:43:57,420 And I'd love you so much. 1623 01:43:57,450 --> 01:44:01,140 Yes. And I'd love to be featured one time to try and discourage 1624 01:44:01,140 --> 01:44:04,230 people from using the term pod. I think that would be an 1625 01:44:04,230 --> 01:44:06,930 excellent really throw away articles. Oh, yeah, I have a 1626 01:44:06,930 --> 01:44:09,600 real problem with this change. Oh, really? 1627 01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:14,250 I was I was unaware of this. I never say the pod. Obviously pod 1628 01:44:14,250 --> 01:44:14,520 news. 1629 01:44:16,410 --> 01:44:19,020 Just the idea of you doing Oh, we're doing the pod? It's the 1630 01:44:19,020 --> 01:44:20,310 latest pod. Yeah. Which is? 1631 01:44:20,910 --> 01:44:24,690 Really that really drives me mad. pleased to hear it. 1632 01:44:24,720 --> 01:44:29,070 Yes. I have a friend in this. Yes. Rock against the pod term. 1633 01:44:29,580 --> 01:44:30,360 Correct. 1634 01:44:31,650 --> 01:44:33,690 All right. Alright. Let's we always like to ask Dave, 1635 01:44:33,690 --> 01:44:35,100 anything that we can do for you. 1636 01:44:36,330 --> 01:44:40,680 You can send donations. What up a random piece of paper I found 1637 01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:42,810 on my desk. That would be I want to fantastic 1638 01:44:42,840 --> 01:44:47,700 Dred Scott who is diligently managing the chapters for this 1639 01:44:47,700 --> 01:44:51,180 for all of our episodes. I have a feeling he'll put another sad 1640 01:44:51,180 --> 01:44:54,930 puppy up for you Dave was with the donations for today 1641 01:44:55,110 --> 01:44:56,190 with a Santa Claus Adam. 1642 01:44:56,520 --> 01:45:02,010 If you want to experience the wonder of the Have the chapters 1643 01:45:02,010 --> 01:45:06,480 in their full glory, new podcast app.com a number of them support 1644 01:45:06,480 --> 01:45:09,870 this. I like hyper catcher and pod friend, James, what can we 1645 01:45:09,870 --> 01:45:10,470 do for you? 1646 01:45:11,370 --> 01:45:14,100 You can get a free buddy who's listening to this to subscribe 1647 01:45:14,100 --> 01:45:18,270 to pod news. dotnet. It's a free newsletter. It's also a podcast 1648 01:45:18,270 --> 01:45:22,260 and it's at pod news. dotnet. That's great. 1649 01:45:22,290 --> 01:45:25,350 That's easy. Well, we can do that every single time. Not a 1650 01:45:25,350 --> 01:45:29,400 problem. All right, man, really, really appreciate. It's been 1651 01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:33,090 great and appreciate the time and the scheduling because, you 1652 01:45:33,090 --> 01:45:34,560 know, as we said, You live in the future. 1653 01:45:34,980 --> 01:45:37,590 So well. Well, thank you so much. It's been an honor to be 1654 01:45:37,590 --> 01:45:38,490 on. Sorry. 1655 01:45:38,879 --> 01:45:41,489 All right, Dave, my friend Have a Merry Christmas the rest of 1656 01:45:41,489 --> 01:45:45,539 what's left of it and we'll see all of you on the next episode 1657 01:45:45,539 --> 01:45:50,819 of podcasting 2.0 as we reshape the future of podcasting. Until 1658 01:45:50,819 --> 01:45:52,139 then, take care everybody Bye bye. 1659 01:46:06,180 --> 01:46:07,500 Should have muted my mic. 1660 01:46:09,030 --> 01:46:13,830 You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 visit podcasts in 1661 01:46:13,830 --> 01:46:16,380 the Zach org for more information.