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Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for
November 17 2023, episode 155

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landing zone Hello everybody,
welcome to podcasting. 2.0 This

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is the boardroom that wants to
vaporize its corporate

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mothership. That's right. We're
here to remove ourselves

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everything going on with the
current state of podcasting the

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future of podcasting value for
value. Yes, we've got all this

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going on with the namespace
podcast index.org podcast index

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dot social and I'm Adam curry
here in the heart of the Texas

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Hill Country in Alabama. The man
who digs for nuggets in

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cryptographic libraries wrapped
in saying Say hello to my friend

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on the other end ladies and
gentlemen the one and only Mr.

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day

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Dave Jones: that's nugget with a
sea

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Adam Curry: nuggets in
cryptographic libraries wrapped

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in sea dog. I read your posts. I
know I know what you're doing.

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Like yeah,

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Dave Jones: that that's we we
are going to be we will be lucky

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if we make it through the show.
Because why is that? Oh, now my

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house is freaking out.

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Adam Curry: Is it your house? Or
is it just Alabama? What's going

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on Birmingham?

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Dave Jones: Wish I could tell so
we had this issue a few months

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ago, about two or three months
ago, we had this problem where

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the lights would flicker just
just to be like Berber Berber.

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And that was your nose stop.
Yeah, well, no, no, actually, it

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was not okay. Alabama. The so we
I thought it was the house I

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thought. So I go you know, my
first thinking is we live in So

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we live in a really old house
and I've replaced a lot of the

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wiring our house was built in
1892.

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Adam Curry: Oh, the wires were
that with the cloth covering

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around it the Oh yeah, sure.
Yeah. It starts to rot away

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slowly over time.

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Dave Jones: We had knob and tube
if you know what that is.

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Adam Curry: I think I had that
when I was in college. I'm not

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sure if

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Dave Jones: that's also an only
fans channel.

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Adam Curry: That's the line.
That's the one I was looking

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for.

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Dave Jones: Helping you ally.
Alright, so we hear you we have

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knob and tube which is like
these porcelain. Porcelain

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standoffs.

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Adam Curry: Oh yeah, of course I
know it. Yes, I've seen that.

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Dave Jones: And then porcelain
tubes that go through the

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through the joists. And so you
like I've gone through there.

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And over the last almost 10
years we've lived here, I've

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ended up ripping most of that
out. And we've only got about

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only about 15% of the house left
is still not been tube

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everything else is up to code
with Romex and everything. But

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so I'm immediately thinking when
this happened a few months ago,

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these little blue rubber, you
know, lights flickers. I'm like,

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well, there must be a bad
circuit somewhere. And in then

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one LED on the circuit goes
crazy and makes the all the rest

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of them freak out. You know?
Because who knows? I mean, these

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LEDs have little computers.

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Adam Curry: Oh, they're their
own entity of goodness. Those

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things are us. Yeah.

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Dave Jones: And they're all
crap, you know? So they ended up

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not being the case. It was
actually the transformer on the

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pole outside was bad was going
bad. Yeah. Because our neighbor

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said the things he's like, are
you awesome lights flickering?

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, is that the
whole neighborhood? You know,

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essentially Oh, man. So then the
power company replaced the

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transformer. That was like three
months ago. Everything's been

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great. And then two days ago
this thing started again. Now as

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does do the same thing but
what's weird about it? What

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makes me think is not I don't
understand the nature of this

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problem. Because when this
happens like nothing goes off

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it's no no computers are
affected No TVs? No no Wi Fi

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seems to be affected by this.
It's only the lights and in

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sometimes you can hear it if you
have like a fan running you'll

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hear it slow down a little bit.

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Adam Curry: Yeah, that that you
what that is that's a frequency

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issue. So frequency Yeah, so
this is an you know, the guy

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that talks about this is Steven
b He knows about this stuff. But

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the grid by itself has to stay
in a pretty tight frequency

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range. And this is why you know
wind power is not that great

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because or even solar power
because once everything's on and

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the sun is shining or the wind
is blowing, then there's too

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much power. You can't put too
much power into the grid it has

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to be regulated, which is
coincidentally why a lot of

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Bitcoin miners are doing well
with the with the grid operators

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because like Hey, I got all this
power. What am I gonna do with

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it? Why don't I give it on the
cheap instead of shutting it

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down given on the cheap to these
bitcoin miner guys. So it has to

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be within the certain frequency
range. And if it dips out Little

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too low. It's bad all around,
but that's what you're seeing.

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And so an electric motor, you'll
notice that immediately, because

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based on cycle cycles cycle,

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Dave Jones: the AC cycle is the
60 cycles, there's maybe

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dropping like

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Adam Curry: 59 59.9 or
something. It's a real tight

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range.

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Dave Jones: So that all right,
that limb, limb, okay, so I

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think I understand what you're
saying. It's not a voltage

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problem is amperage problem or
anything like that? It's the

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it's the frequency with which
the current alternates from

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positive to negative. That's

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Adam Curry: my understanding.
I'm not the guy to give the real

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answer. But you know, the yes,
that's, that's what and all the

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grid stuff is measured in the
frequencies, not the amount of

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power. Hmm, yeah, I know.
There's another guy. Yes, sir.

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Ben, the protector of megawatts.
He's the guy that can tell you

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exactly how that works.

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Dave Jones: That sounds like a
power company issue again. Oh,

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yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. To me,

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Adam Curry: but not not
necessarily your transformer

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that could be Yeah, that can be
at the plant or they're

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switching stuff over or don't
have enough. I mean, we have

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that happen here in Texas. Not
because our grid sucks, which

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we've been sigh opt into
believing.

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Dave Jones: Yeah, well,
everything sucks in Texas. Yeah.

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Well, it's

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Adam Curry: because, you know,
obviously, they want to

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nationalize our grid. And we're
quite happy with our grid, but

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ERCOT, which is it's, it's
basically an exchange, and every

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five minutes, they update the
prices and people have, you

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know, the some of that stuff has
been featured out five years in

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advance. And that's really what
happened with this snowpocalypse

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is no one was making any money.
It's like, I'm not going to turn

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on this coal plant or anything,
because, you know, it takes

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three days to warm up. And I
don't know if I'm gonna need it.

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And then the snow hits like,
Oops, and we couldn't flip on

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gas, because the law says it has
to go to the consumers first. So

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it was it was it's really
basically the earth the Enron

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guys. They're running. They're
running the exchange, not the

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grid, but the exchange where the
electricity is all

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commercialized. So

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Dave Jones: they all they all
left Enron, and

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Adam Curry: then when they went
to prison, no, one or two guys

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died in prison or in prison,
whatever. And then the other

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guys yeah, they all went to to
ERCOT. No, it's horrible. It's

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horrible.

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Dave Jones: It's great gig if
you can get it, I guess. Yeah,

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Adam Curry: no kidding. No
kidding. But anyway, yeah,

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Dave Jones: I was looking for
squirrels laying across the

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powerline outside or something.
You know, like

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Adam Curry: you said, dripping
dripping squirrel juice down on

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another lock world's squirrel
SAP? That's what we call it.

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Yes. Business in the business.
Oh, man. Yeah, I wanted to I

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wanted to mention something.
Something really powerful

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happened in my life, something
powerful has been happening for

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a while. You know, I've kind of
turned I got a lot of not a lot.

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But I get a significant amount
of really ugly emails from time

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to time, depending on the topic
no agenda discusses. Could we

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never take sides or anything
like that? We're just trying to

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deconstruct media. People get
outraged and spawn up and, and

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being a new Christian. Yes.
Jesus freak, alert. I've, I've

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resorted to instead of replying
like, Well, what do you think

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you are? You are I'm blocking
you. So anything like that? I

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just say is hey, man, I'm sorry.
You seem angry about this. I

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don't think I can help anything.
But I pray for you. So it's

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either you know, I will say I
hate to say that, or I forgive

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you for saying this to me.

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Dave Jones: This is this is the
deal, though. This is not that

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much different. The old Adam.
I've been on. I've been CC on

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angry emails.

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Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. You
remember the old Adam? Yes. And

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Dave Jones: your reply all would
just be like, Why are you so

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angry bro?

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Adam Curry: Well, but I've
replied differently to depending

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on the level. But I've really
been very consistent. I mean, it

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i and i actually, if I write
that email before I hit send, I

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pray for that person real quick.
Doesn't that believe me? It's

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not a long drawn out thing. But
it just but it's, it's well met.

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And what's been happening is
when the I mean, I've been

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getting emails, they're like,
Screw you, you have begged that

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and I'll say and I'll reply like
that. And within an hour, oh,

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man, I'm sorry, you know,
personal let me be completely

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transformed. So when when
Bitcoin magazine didn't publish

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my piece, and instead came out
with this whole noster the

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noster is going to save the
music business article, but in

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the end, we're talking about the
printed magazine. You know,

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they'd never reached out to me
they would you know, they were

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where's the article? Where's the
article? Where's it unless sent

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the article. And then, you know,
after all, this badgering and I

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wrote it and I got Tina involved
and they didn't publish it and I

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was disappointed but I wound up
sending the guy an email, which

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he never responded to, but I
said, Now, I forgive you for

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this and not getting back to me
and not publishing it. It's

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okay. Um, that was, that was
literally what I said, in the in

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Steven B's emporium of apps
telegram group extravaganza,

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which has multiple channels. You
know, people were mad about

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this. So a couple of couple of
our guard 2.0 people who were

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like, screw these guys. And I
said, No, no, just I named

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Dave Jones: Spencer, possibly.

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Adam Curry: Or Libra. And I
said, Yeah, I forgive them. It's

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okay. It's all going to be
alright, and then moved on. And

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lo and behold, now it's on page
80. So yeah, wasn't top of mind.

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But in the new Bitcoin magazine,
the printed edition, it

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appeared, I haven't seen it yet.
It appears they've printed my

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article. And I just want to say
amen, hallelujah. Because it

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worked. It worked. Witness
preach. I had not expected that.

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And I'm really happy because I
think it comes at a great time.

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Where, tell

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Dave Jones: me did is it a date,
there's their digital version?

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Or is it print only right now?

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Adam Curry: I think it's print
only. And then once it's out,

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and I think it takes several
weeks, which is kind of good.

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It'll be a couple of weeks until
this measles pops up. And this

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was mainly about a short history
of I've published it on the on

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our on podcast index. So so you
can find it probably somewhere.

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You know, it's a brief history
of 2.0. You know, what kind of

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what happened and then value for
value as it pertains to the

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Lightning Network. Of course, I
had a heavy Bitcoin slant on it,

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because that's what Bitcoin
magazine is about. And then I

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spoke specifically about music,
and about the wallet switching

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technology. So it's perfect for
kind of the ramp up that it

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actually would have been a
little too early. I think. In

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hindsight, now, we have a lot of
tracks that are available,

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people have their apps that are
doing value time splits. And

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with a little luck with and I
say luck, this Ainsley Costello

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just loud concert will stream
live in the in a lit stream on

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2.0. And I say a little luck
because people aren't doing it

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yet. It's all noster was that
noster stuff right now. But I

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know that Dobby das and I think
Alberto are trying to work with

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those guys and get it on a live
stream.

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Dave Jones: Okay. I'm gonna be
honest and say that I do not

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have seen the talk of that going
on. But I'm not up to speed on

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what's happening there.

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Adam Curry: Okay, so this is
first avenue in Minneapolis. But

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this is all mostre people. So
we're if it's gonna work is

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because we make it work, not
because they care about us. I'm

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going to be truthful about it.
Yeah, no, I

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Dave Jones: think you'd be an
honest You're not bad.

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Adam Curry: No, I'm not being
mean. That's fine. You mean they

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have their mission?

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Dave Jones: I don't care about
them either. So

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Adam Curry: we're, you know, so
So we're all pretty excited

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about the most recent pod con
Mexico that rss.com put

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together, and did it live lit
live in video which Fantasticks?

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Everybody could stream sets? You
could boost in real time.

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Dave Jones: And did you see
Alberto's article, in fact, I've

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linked

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Adam Curry: to it in, in our
show notes. It says here, how to

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stream a live event in a podcast
interact with the audience in

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real time and exchange value.

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Dave Jones: Yes, excellent
honor. So

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Adam Curry: that's a great
article that these guys are not

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following. And but there's this
confusion, you know, it's like

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there's a lot of excitement
around lightning, and value for

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value. Now, they are calling
this a value for value event,

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which is valid because you can
zap while you're watching, but

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there's no streaming it's not
going to work in the apps. And

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hopefully, I think dovie Das,
who has just been driving a lot

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of this I think he's trying to
work it out with them to to get

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a stream that we can put lit
into the apps I hope that

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Dave Jones: you can zap as long
as you're not zapping from

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mutiny wallet to the Zeus
wallet, then then you're out of

249
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luck because those guys because
the mutiny wallet people blocked

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anybody from using their wallet
to zap anybody who's using Zeus.

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So no, it was really I didn't
know there's yes, we're seeing

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zap censorship emerge.

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Adam Curry: Oh, really?

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Unknown: I'm not kidding me. On
Nike.

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Adam Curry: It's not that it's
incompatible. It's been blocked.

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Dave Jones: Mutiny, my
understanding is that mutiny

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wallet claimed that they are
we're getting payment failures,

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or HDLC.

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Adam Curry: Timeout

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Dave Jones: timeouts. And so
they just blocked Zeus.

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Adam Curry: So there's a bigger
thing here. There's a bigger

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thing going on. I don't think
it's malicious, but I think it's

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ignorance. And I would hate to
see but you know, to have two

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artists that that the pod Kasen
2.0 Music podcasts of supported

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Ainsley and, and just loud, not
be exposed to the full audience,

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which I believe is really
providing the most, the most

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love and the most value, which
is through our apps. So I'm, I'm

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just hoping that we that we get
this set up. But I mean, I can

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tell because I've been in some
conversations, and I said, Look,

270
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I'm just gonna answer questions
and point you to the right

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people. I'm too old and too
tired to jump in and go nuts

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about this stuff. Because I've
been around this, this thing. I

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mean, I did the first cyber cast
from the Grammys in 1996. You

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know, I brought a T one line
into the Shrine Auditorium, I'm

275
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not doing this anymore. But

276
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Dave Jones: and so that you're
not being an infrastructure. No,

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I'm

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Adam Curry: not doing that
anymore. But you know, here's

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all the people who are
enthusiastic, and they know how

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to do it, and they can get it
set up. So I really hope that

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that works out. Because it would
just be it would just be a shame

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if it didn't happen. And it's
really, it's because there's

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confusion when people hear value
for value. Oh, yeah, that would

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that's value for value. You
know, and lightning, yes. But

285
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it's really two different
things. So, again, I think that,

286
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you know, the guide from Alberto
was fantastic. And dovie Das,

287
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you know, he's been the first
one out of the gate to turn RSS

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blue.com into a full service,
you know, integrate the music,

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he understands all the moving
parts, I hope that he can pull

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it off. And, and he should take
a split for that. For sure. But

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overall, there's a, we just want
to acknowledge that there's

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really a lot of distance between
what Nasir is doing and what

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we're doing. But from the
outside, it all kind of looks

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the same. And it's just go
ahead.

295
00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:51,240
Dave Jones: Now, I was going to
ask what, how? So if they're

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gonna live stream this? I mean,
not sure doesn't have a

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00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:55,800
mechanism for that, does it?

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Adam Curry: I mean, I don't know
if you go no, it's no, it's it's

299
00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:03,600
called Zap Dot stream is
basically a streaming service,

300
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not unlike peer tube, I don't
know if it uses peer to button

301
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or the hood. And they just pop
up a button on the screen and

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you click on a mountain, then it
opens your wallet. I mean, it's,

303
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,210
it's just a string, you could
use do this on YouTube, and put

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and put a thing in there. So
there's no per minute streaming,

305
00:17:22,050 --> 00:17:25,590
there's no booster grams. It's
just it's just a zap with a

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name.

307
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,409
Dave Jones: That's, I mean, we
know that based on what the

308
00:17:31,439 --> 00:17:36,659
Dominus developer said that 99%
of people who use these who use

309
00:17:36,659 --> 00:17:40,469
the app didn't stop using it.
There's the other audiences is

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00:17:40,469 --> 00:17:43,739
limited, me, you're just gonna
be limited. If you're if you're

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00:17:43,769 --> 00:17:47,219
restricting your audience to
noster to just a bunch of, you

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00:17:47,219 --> 00:17:48,239
know, well go

313
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Adam Curry: go look at zapped
dot stream and tell me what the

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max amounts are that you see on
these live streams, you know,

315
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,870
1200 SATs, you know, just not
receiving a lot. It's, you know,

316
00:17:58,230 --> 00:18:01,830
it's not the culture yet. And
certainly not of live stream. So

317
00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:06,720
anyway, does break since you
mentioned the J 65, the

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00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:12,180
developer of noster. So when he
interesting love on Twitter,

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00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:18,150
posts, idea, use noster for
recording track, contract

320
00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:21,360
splits, a lightning Spotify
client pulls the splits, which

321
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,210
are cryptographically signed by
the tracks, artists, the client

322
00:18:24,210 --> 00:18:27,810
stream sites in real time to
them, basically, podcasting 2.0

323
00:18:27,810 --> 00:18:38,100
But for music and over Noster,
it's so much better. And so

324
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:42,480
that's just a it's just
ignorance. He doesn't know he's

325
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,000
working on his thing. He doesn't
know what we're doing over here.

326
00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:48,780
I agree. People jumped in and
went, and I don't and it's fine.

327
00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:53,160
I I wish there was a way that we
could integrate Nasr. I haven't

328
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,190
seen it yet. But right now, when
I read this from the main

329
00:18:56,190 --> 00:19:00,270
developer of the main app, I got
it declared noster is a solution

330
00:19:00,270 --> 00:19:04,710
looking for a problem. The URL
is like if if if the main

331
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:07,260
developers already trying to
think of other ways to make it

332
00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:11,010
interesting, that are already
kind of solved and working fine.

333
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,900
Then you got to start asking
yourself questions. And it hurts

334
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:20,010
the overall system because
people were shocked. Shocked, I

335
00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:27,330
tell you, so learn that. Not
only has Mike Newman been the

336
00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:32,790
guy adding wave Lake feeds to
the index, but then, you know,

337
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:37,140
worse the wave the wave? Yeah,
the wavelet. Michael from wave

338
00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:39,630
Lake. He said, Well, it looks
like the artists are adding it

339
00:19:39,630 --> 00:19:41,850
themselves. So we're not going
to do that automatically. It's

340
00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:47,670
low priority for us. So he
realized. I know but he doesn't

341
00:19:47,670 --> 00:19:51,300
know it either. So they've
deprecated the priority of

342
00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:53,070
basically hitting the pod ping.

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00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:58,020
Dave Jones: As it was Mike
Newman, who we who we lovingly

344
00:19:58,020 --> 00:20:01,080
refer to as the shell script.
Yeah. Doing it that was doing

345
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,640
this one, but you're like one
butthole

346
00:20:02,670 --> 00:20:04,920
Adam Curry: Yeah, so what's
going to happen is eventually

347
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,090
Mike is going to get tired of
it, or whatever. And then, you

348
00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:11,160
know, and artists are going to
be disappointed.

349
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,760
Dave Jones: I'm already tired of
it on Mike's behalf. Me too, My

350
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,140
Adam Curry: finger hurts like
now.

351
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,730
Dave Jones: This is, uh, so

352
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:23,880
Adam Curry: I just want to,
there's that we there's no way

353
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,000
really we can integrate. But
when it comes to certain things

354
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,190
everybody wins. If we're a
little more open and, and, and

355
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:35,490
include everything. Does that
make sense?

356
00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:41,370
Dave Jones: Yeah, this kind of
fits into, into some things that

357
00:20:41,370 --> 00:20:46,230
I kind of noted, which, you
know, Todd, after the last show,

358
00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:52,230
Todd Cochran popped into the
mastodon and said, you know,

359
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:55,800
hey, I don't understand why in
the world activity, pub would be

360
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:02,280
even a priority or a big deal.
And I've been working on it, you

361
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:07,020
know, off and on all week. I've
made, I've made progress. A lot

362
00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:09,720
of it is not visible. But it's,
this is one of those things

363
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,850
where progress on this is going
to be like, molasses not

364
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:23,460
watching as dry. Maybe not that.
It's, it's like, it's like

365
00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:27,090
nothing changes. And then lots
of things change. And it's

366
00:21:27,090 --> 00:21:32,910
because you have to have lots of
things in place before any of

367
00:21:32,910 --> 00:21:36,960
the things work. But you have to
dispatch spend a lot of times a

368
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:42,180
lot of time writing code, in
order to get one thing to work.

369
00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:44,460
Adam Curry: Can I interrupt you
for one moment? Just to read

370
00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:50,040
Yes. Or something I thought was
very, very telling. Because

371
00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:53,700
there are people listening who
really don't even know what

372
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:59,640
Macedon is. And, and the reason
yes or no, or how it really

373
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,820
works. And and it's, I think
it's worth just let me see if I

374
00:22:02,820 --> 00:22:07,440
could find this real quick. I
got a note and the question was

375
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:13,230
mastered on. Here it is. Sorry
for the dummy question. I'm

376
00:22:13,230 --> 00:22:16,230
super confused by Mastodon, I
have the app on my phone,

377
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,130
perhaps at your suggestion, yes,
within an account, which is

378
00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:24,180
always how I start, meaning
recreating a precedence and

379
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:27,960
something new. I can't tell what
or where this app lives is that

380
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,500
a nostra thing? Is podcast
indexed of social justice? Your

381
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:34,620
community, not a broader
Mastodon community? Can one

382
00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:37,890
boost here? As it relates to
private postings? Does that mean

383
00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:41,430
just one person tagged and it's
private? So the concept of the

384
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:45,510
fediverse is not even known to a
lot of people didn't know the

385
00:22:45,540 --> 00:22:50,700
the basic, federated distributed
nature of Macedon?

386
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:52,680
Dave Jones: That's interesting.

387
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:55,950
Adam Curry: Well, you know,
we're so it's so natural for us

388
00:22:55,950 --> 00:22:59,190
to know this stuff. But here's
someone who's on podcast index

389
00:22:59,190 --> 00:23:02,850
dot social, and it's trying to
understand, so how does this

390
00:23:02,850 --> 00:23:07,950
thing work? What is it? Is it
just just you guys? And then,

391
00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:12,060
and I think the app actually
hurts to be honest. I don't

392
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:16,020
think apps make it very apparent
to see the full spectrum on a

393
00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:19,020
website. So just bear that in
mind that people don't really

394
00:23:19,020 --> 00:23:22,980
understand that. It is, in fact,
in effect, a bit like noster.

395
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:27,180
Except you you have an account
on a relay and your relay talks

396
00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:31,740
to other relays. Maybe that's a
simple way of explaining it. But

397
00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:34,950
even Yeah, even though I'm sorry
to interrupt you, no, no, please

398
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:42,090
do even the noster main guy from
Damas T said, I should look this

399
00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:47,520
up, he said about podcasting.
2.0. And this this, I had to I

400
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,700
actually responded to him like
what How can you say this? He

401
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:56,430
says, for podcasting. nostre has
the benefit, that it's easier to

402
00:23:56,430 --> 00:24:00,150
query than RSS and doesn't
require you to run a server.

403
00:24:00,930 --> 00:24:06,570
Like someone has to run a server
somewhere. What is a relay? It

404
00:24:07,710 --> 00:24:10,980
Dave Jones: doesn't require you
to run a server either. I mean,

405
00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:14,910
like, blood if you want to
simplify it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,

406
00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:19,320
like, if you want to just just,
I mean, everything has to be

407
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:20,310
served. Yeah,

408
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:23,010
Adam Curry: it has to come from
so it's not like magic. This you

409
00:24:23,010 --> 00:24:26,010
know, that relays are servers
and that they're not just magic

410
00:24:26,010 --> 00:24:30,540
things that that make the noster
stuff shoot around poorly.

411
00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:35,760
Dave Jones: You don't you don't
write your RSS feed. You know,

412
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,440
you don't write your your in pub
on your front door and everybody

413
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,660
sees it. It has to be served by
a computer.

414
00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:44,820
Adam Curry: Well, to be fair,
he's built something called

415
00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:48,240
noster dB. And his app is now
you know, you have your app and

416
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,390
it takes up 10 gigabytes of
space because you're basically

417
00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:54,990
your own relay. I mean, this is
yes, this is what this is what

418
00:24:54,990 --> 00:24:57,030
he's doing. Well,

419
00:24:58,110 --> 00:25:04,740
Dave Jones: this says Why is why
is that was activity pub

420
00:25:05,490 --> 00:25:16,560
important? Scale? You can ask
the activity pub, as in this is

421
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,300
going to be one of the I can't I
found out this week that I can

422
00:25:21,330 --> 00:25:26,550
there are certain there are
there are I'm trying to figure

423
00:25:26,550 --> 00:25:31,080
out how to frame this, it is
difficult to convince people of

424
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:37,500
your vision like that is you
have, you have specifications

425
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:44,310
and you have protocols. Those
are easy to talk about. And like

426
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:48,120
those are easy to discuss. And
you can hash them about and

427
00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,410
that's why people do because you
can. It's easy to talk in though

428
00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:56,250
in those terms. When you broaden
that out a bit and talk about

429
00:25:57,510 --> 00:26:02,100
and talk about vision of a
thing. Like, I'm not talking now

430
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,650
about a specific protocol
anymore.

431
00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:07,230
Adam Curry: You're talking to a
guy who had to convince the

432
00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:09,810
world that an iPod was for radio
shows.

433
00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:14,130
Dave Jones: Thank you, thank
you, thank you, you you, you

434
00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:19,560
know this fight because you had
to fight to convince Dave

435
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,670
Weiner, what you were what you
were fighting to convince him of

436
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,270
let me just I want to reef I
want to like reframe that whole

437
00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:30,900
beginning of RSS and podcasting,
as the beginning of podcasting

438
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:35,070
in RSS. What if you go back and
you think about it, what you

439
00:26:35,070 --> 00:26:39,480
were trying to convince him of
was not really a change to the

440
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,770
protocol, you were trying to
convince him of a vision you

441
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:49,860
had, this change would enable
Yes. And because you saw a

442
00:26:49,860 --> 00:26:55,560
future in which this thing that
you had thought of produced a

443
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,190
particular outcome or a
particular result, and you could

444
00:26:59,190 --> 00:27:02,640
see it, and you can say in your,
you essentially had a syllogism

445
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,560
where you're like, if, if, if
one, if A is true, and B is

446
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:13,860
true, then C will be true. And
you solve the C, but there's a

447
00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:17,490
lot but it's very difficult
sometimes to convince people

448
00:27:17,850 --> 00:27:25,230
that A is true, AND, and OR B is
true. Or a plus b will equal see

449
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:28,650
if that gets lost along the way.
And it's not because people are

450
00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:31,980
stupid, like No, not at all. We
had a car you know, we had a

451
00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:36,180
long eventually just bailed out
of this thread on on the

452
00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:42,150
mastodon server, about the music
about the media, the medium tag

453
00:27:42,150 --> 00:27:47,520
equals video. And it was a long
thread where you know, James and

454
00:27:47,550 --> 00:27:50,610
some other people were saying I
just don't understand why this

455
00:27:50,610 --> 00:27:57,210
is necessary. And and I'm very
you know, I'm understanding of

456
00:27:57,210 --> 00:28:05,340
that, because it's difficult to
to try to explain to somebody

457
00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:07,800
see this. See I'm even falling
victim to this.

458
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:10,500
Adam Curry: Well, first of all,
I had to look up the word

459
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,740
syllogism, which I thought might
be venereal disease or

460
00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:17,790
something. But it will make you
go crazy. Deductive scheme of a

461
00:28:17,790 --> 00:28:22,650
formal argument consisting of a
major and or minor premise, and

462
00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:23,640
a conclusion.

463
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:28,350
Dave Jones: Yeah, so if I did,
yeah, yeah, the basic is a you

464
00:28:28,350 --> 00:28:32,790
know, a, like, if if statement,
a statement one is true, and

465
00:28:32,790 --> 00:28:36,510
statement two is true, then
statement three, there you go.

466
00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:41,460
There you go. And but but in
this particular words involved

467
00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:43,920
are important though, because
typically the way this syllogism

468
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,380
is, is talked about is, if
statement one is sound. That's

469
00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:53,190
the word that's used, if it's
sound, and statement two is

470
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:57,300
sound, then statement three will
be a logical conclusion from

471
00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:02,280
those two. So that is the set
and the sound has to do with

472
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,810
your reasons. You know, and as
in I fall victim to this and we

473
00:29:06,810 --> 00:29:11,520
all do, it's a natural way of
thinking to think okay, if I

474
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:17,730
explain in say statement, and I
say this, and that is a sound

475
00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:21,570
thing, this a sound statement to
me, and I also say this, and

476
00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:25,320
then I show a conclusion that
everybody else will see what I

477
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,100
mean and agree to it. That's not
the way that it was not the way

478
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:32,970
the world goes. No, no book
because it's a sim. And the

479
00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:40,860
reason is simple, is because we
don't see people don't see in

480
00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:48,450
the same frame of reference.
Like that. When you when I have

481
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,000
if I have a vision of something,
what I'm trying to show is not

482
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,260
real. What I'm trying to show is
the thing that I see in my head

483
00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:05,340
and that's not is the same as a
logical conclusion. It's a it's

484
00:30:05,340 --> 00:30:10,890
a vision. It's not an argument.
And so you can argue all day

485
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:15,150
long, and you're just talking
past each other. Yeah, you what

486
00:30:15,150 --> 00:30:18,150
you have to do in this is we've
taught, you know, I think we've

487
00:30:18,150 --> 00:30:20,700
talked about this before, as
some point where you have to do

488
00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:25,410
this while I appreciate it
Alberto's an RSS, Ben and

489
00:30:25,410 --> 00:30:29,490
Alberto. They're just diving
going in doing it doing it. Yes.

490
00:30:29,730 --> 00:30:34,320
You know, I think I've said
before, when you can't come to

491
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,900
an agreement. After talking
about talking things out for a

492
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,920
while, even an open source
project, it's time to stop

493
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,450
talking and go build some stuff.
Because that's the way that you

494
00:30:48,450 --> 00:30:53,520
express the vision in concrete
terms. You build a thing, then

495
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,380
people can see it. And you no
longer have to try to explain it

496
00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:00,720
because it's right there in
front of them. But I'd say this

497
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,920
Adam Curry: whole project is its
roots are based on that. And

498
00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:08,820
props to Stephen B for building
sovereign feeds, because every

499
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:12,360
vision that was discussed
whether it was ours, or someone

500
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,810
else's, came to fruition,
because we could put it into the

501
00:31:15,810 --> 00:31:16,320
feed.

502
00:31:17,370 --> 00:31:20,700
Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah. That
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly

503
00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:25,110
right. So like, in the context
of the medium, disco, we're kind

504
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:28,350
of all over the place, but I
don't care. In the context of

505
00:31:28,350 --> 00:31:30,480
the medium discussion, this is,

506
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,950
Adam Curry: uh, oh, oh, this,
this is, you didn't notice that

507
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:37,560
Adam stayed away from this one.
I'm like, oh, yeah, I

508
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:43,530
Dave Jones: appreciate that
about the, so the tags

509
00:31:43,530 --> 00:31:48,330
themselves must be, they must be
definite. And I'm trying to use

510
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:55,620
terms here. Very specifically.
They have the tags that we use

511
00:31:55,620 --> 00:32:01,830
have to be definitive, so that
apps know what to do with the

512
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:07,950
content that the tag is
referencing. Like, so just, I'm

513
00:32:07,950 --> 00:32:11,490
not going to make a big a big
thing about medium and video

514
00:32:11,490 --> 00:32:16,260
here. But I'm just trying to
exemplify something. The MIME

515
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:23,430
types. Don't do that. MIME types
express a format? Or playard?

516
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:25,620
Adam Curry: Really format? I
always always thought it MIME

517
00:32:25,620 --> 00:32:29,970
type defines what player needs
to be used what? What was the,

518
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:34,410
in the old Unix world it was the
not the dot something dot?

519
00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:39,180
There's a file that determines
what player will open for a MIME

520
00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:39,690
type.

521
00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:43,830
Dave Jones: Yeah, like, you're
talking about, like a protocol

522
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:51,330
scheme. Yeah. Yeah. And so the,
the, the MIME type, or the file

523
00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:54,210
type, let's just, you know,
whatever video, let's just

524
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,350
generalize it heavily and say
video audio, that just tells you

525
00:32:58,350 --> 00:33:01,170
what the format is, it doesn't
tell you anything about the

526
00:33:01,170 --> 00:33:06,270
content. And so the meat, the
medium tag is trying to teh is

527
00:33:06,270 --> 00:33:13,020
trying to express express a, an
opinion about the content. And

528
00:33:13,020 --> 00:33:18,330
so the there there's, it's, it's
a hot it's one layer up from

529
00:33:18,330 --> 00:33:22,110
what is happening at the actual
format level. And this is a,

530
00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:30,720
this is a thing you can explain
over and over and over. And it's

531
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,460
not, it's easy to misunderstand.
Because the problem is not a

532
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:40,830
misunderstanding it. The problem
is, we need to see a thing, we

533
00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:44,460
need to see the problem. The
problem with medium equals video

534
00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:50,940
is that no apps are doing
anything with it. Peer tube is

535
00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:56,520
the closest example of a medium
equals video player. But it's

536
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,780
native. That's what it does
anyway, in is just producing

537
00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:05,730
that. But that's the experience
the YouTube experience, the peer

538
00:34:05,730 --> 00:34:09,240
tube experience. There's no
podcast apps that do that

539
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:13,530
experience. So it's very
difficult to understand what the

540
00:34:13,530 --> 00:34:18,420
sort of vision of the tag of
that of that particular medium

541
00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:23,490
in the tag is. And it's poorly
named, because we're limited in

542
00:34:23,490 --> 00:34:26,040
the English language we got, you
know, we're trying to express

543
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,820
the thing that's difficult to
express. So the all around, I

544
00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:33,630
appreciate the confusion. I
understand it. I know what that

545
00:34:33,630 --> 00:34:39,210
happens in. You know it, but
it's it's the thing that if you

546
00:34:39,210 --> 00:34:43,410
take a step back, you also Okay,
okay. This is also the reason

547
00:34:43,410 --> 00:34:47,820
that Todd comes in and says, I
don't understand this activity

548
00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:51,810
post me know, what was this a
big deal? What was the point of

549
00:34:51,810 --> 00:34:56,070
this? The same type of thing.
There's a vision here if we you

550
00:34:56,070 --> 00:34:58,890
know what I see in my head and
this is the best. I'm going to

551
00:34:58,890 --> 00:35:00,930
start talking about protocol.
Just for a second start talking

552
00:35:00,930 --> 00:35:08,370
about what I see in my head is
that RSS and activity pub are

553
00:35:08,370 --> 00:35:14,790
like peanut butter and jelly.
They they fit together so well.

554
00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:24,720
Because they they come from the
same ethos, sort of a, a, a

555
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:31,050
shared push pull, like polling
sort of polling and posting sort

556
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,970
they work the way the web does

557
00:35:32,969 --> 00:35:34,859
Adam Curry: publish subscribe,
is that fair to say have

558
00:35:34,859 --> 00:35:35,609
subscribed? Yeah,

559
00:35:36,090 --> 00:35:38,670
Dave Jones: publish subscribe,
which is exactly what RSS is.

560
00:35:39,090 --> 00:35:44,190
It's a pub. RSS is Pub Sub.
Activity Pub is Pub Sub. These

561
00:35:44,190 --> 00:35:50,220
are they they just activity pub
does it with JSON over HTTP

562
00:35:50,220 --> 00:35:56,850
requests, RSS does it with XML
over GET requests, that it's

563
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,230
really the same thing. And so
since they're so close together,

564
00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:05,250
we can merge we can we can merge
is not the right word I want to

565
00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:10,050
use, we can take these two
worlds, and they will fit

566
00:36:10,050 --> 00:36:15,450
together well. And then we can
bring these these things, we can

567
00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:24,630
bring a sense of community to
RSS, that's almost native. Like

568
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:28,290
the issue with the you know,
Michael, and when we talked to

569
00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:31,410
Michael and Sam a few months
ago, or maybe a couple of months

570
00:36:31,410 --> 00:36:36,720
ago, I had a phone call with
them from WaveLight. And they

571
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:42,060
told us this, you know, an
anecdote about how a musician I

572
00:36:42,060 --> 00:36:46,560
forget who it was, and said,
Well, okay, I've published my

573
00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:51,750
music to wave Lake. But I don't
do i Where do I tell people go

574
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:56,280
like to interact with like me
and the mute and like, there's

575
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:01,620
no like landing zone where,
where I go in now now I can be

576
00:37:01,620 --> 00:37:05,520
part of something that social
that has to do with

577
00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:08,190
Adam Curry: this is exactly the
same that I've heard from an

578
00:37:08,190 --> 00:37:14,130
artist saying, okay, I get this,
but then where's my fan base?

579
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,190
Where's my community? Yeah, same
thing.

580
00:37:17,909 --> 00:37:21,089
Dave Jones: Exactly. So you have
if you have a mess, or if you're

581
00:37:21,089 --> 00:37:24,839
a musician, and you have a
fediverse account, you're on a

582
00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:29,909
mastodon somewhere. And you also
have published your music

583
00:37:29,939 --> 00:37:35,279
through RSS. If we bridge these
two things together, you now

584
00:37:35,279 --> 00:37:40,049
have a in your, you just
inherited a landing zone, in a,

585
00:37:40,439 --> 00:37:44,039
in a social community aspect,
without having to do anything

586
00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:47,939
else. Yeah, it just, it comes to
you, instead of you having to go

587
00:37:47,939 --> 00:37:52,259
to it. Like all of a sudden, you
have you just you got air

588
00:37:52,259 --> 00:37:56,939
dropped into a party with your
content in it. So I think that's

589
00:37:56,939 --> 00:38:01,019
important for RSS because we've
always tried to use these things

590
00:38:01,019 --> 00:38:06,329
like you know, in their good
services, you know, a pod page

591
00:38:06,329 --> 00:38:08,789
and these things where it's
like, okay, I need a place for

592
00:38:08,789 --> 00:38:14,399
my or you know, own your own
your own.com but nothing those

593
00:38:14,399 --> 00:38:18,449
are really just static. Yes,
pages for you. They're not

594
00:38:18,479 --> 00:38:19,439
they're not social.

595
00:38:19,860 --> 00:38:22,890
Adam Curry: Well, he if I if I
can give an example of of the

596
00:38:22,890 --> 00:38:28,470
disconnect and connect at the
same time. So because we have

597
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:31,230
cross app comments still
enabled, I still publish doesn't

598
00:38:31,230 --> 00:38:33,570
really matter if it's not taken
off, but I still publish that

599
00:38:33,570 --> 00:38:40,740
way. So before every podcast I
do, by will post a post on no

600
00:38:40,740 --> 00:38:45,840
agenda social.com So I'm looking
here no agenda episode 16 1608

601
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,370
woke up dead not it should
actually be the the lit tag when

602
00:38:50,370 --> 00:38:52,800
we start go on. But it's not I
do it out when I publish

603
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,120
everything. And because it is
posted to our Mastodon server,

604
00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:00,780
that and that's not automatic,
you know, I've got to post it.

605
00:39:00,810 --> 00:39:03,990
And I'm gonna get the URL, put
the URL and cross app comments.

606
00:39:04,350 --> 00:39:09,540
There is you know, there's
anywhere from five to 25 posts

607
00:39:09,630 --> 00:39:13,500
or replies under that post that
community knows Oh, here, I can

608
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,460
talk about it. But the
connections are poor. And I'm

609
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:20,040
not really going there myself
anymore, because it's not this

610
00:39:20,070 --> 00:39:25,290
automatic meshed in peanut
butter jelly experience. And

611
00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:29,460
it's just the post is not really
an integrated. The RS is not

612
00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:32,670
coming from the RSS feed is
coming from me copy pasting

613
00:39:32,670 --> 00:39:34,410
stuff in. Does that make sense?

614
00:39:35,069 --> 00:39:38,309
Dave Jones: Yeah, it does make
sense and so like that's in

615
00:39:38,309 --> 00:39:44,159
that's the experience that this
will end up resulting in is that

616
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:50,789
you won't the podcasters get
that for free. And they they

617
00:39:50,789 --> 00:39:54,419
will get they get an audience
they have they have their

618
00:39:54,419 --> 00:39:58,649
followers, their subscribers and
RSS. Now they can have their

619
00:39:58,649 --> 00:40:03,209
followers. You Who are
essentially essentially also

620
00:40:03,209 --> 00:40:06,779
subscribing to the RSS, but
through the activity pub bridge,

621
00:40:07,049 --> 00:40:13,259
so that they, the the episode
essentially and lands in the

622
00:40:13,259 --> 00:40:17,879
place they already are. And then
the party starts there. So

623
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:21,480
Adam Curry: I like as landing
zone as an example. Let's take

624
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,440
your pod page example because I
use pod page for two shows.

625
00:40:26,850 --> 00:40:31,050
Basically, if pod page hooked up
activity pub to their back end,

626
00:40:31,980 --> 00:40:34,620
it would be dynamite because
they got everything in there.

627
00:40:35,010 --> 00:40:38,310
They got all of these all these
things and now they're doing a

628
00:40:38,310 --> 00:40:43,500
lot of 2.0 tags from the from
the feed. You know, that would

629
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:47,010
be a perfect place so they know
how to present an episode and a

630
00:40:47,010 --> 00:40:50,490
podcast but now give right now
is because it's funny because I

631
00:40:50,490 --> 00:40:52,680
went there today just to look
around some of the new features

632
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,070
and I see all these people
signed up for my mailing list

633
00:40:56,070 --> 00:41:00,660
and like I've a mailing list
apparently tops up and there

634
00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:03,690
must be 100 people registered
for the mailing list and but yet

635
00:41:03,690 --> 00:41:06,720
there's it says oh, here's these
links. You can import this

636
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,720
mailing list into these other
programs. I'm like, No, I want

637
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:13,290
to be right here. I want I want
to do from right where I am

638
00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:16,620
here. I've got all these people
they've opted in. How can I

639
00:41:16,620 --> 00:41:19,200
communicate to them now right
here on this page.

640
00:41:19,859 --> 00:41:22,859
Dave Jones: The magic of the
activity pub. outbox is

641
00:41:22,859 --> 00:41:27,299
underutilized because Mastodon
in its stupidity does not

642
00:41:27,299 --> 00:41:30,029
backfill posts from the outbox.

643
00:41:31,289 --> 00:41:33,089
Adam Curry: Explain that to me,
I was laughing about the

644
00:41:33,089 --> 00:41:35,669
stupidity comment. I'll explain

645
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:38,820
Dave Jones: you. Yes. When
Mastodon when you go to

646
00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:41,490
somebody's profile, if you look,
if you search for them, pull

647
00:41:41,490 --> 00:41:47,310
them up. Follow them. Mastodon
by default does not look at that

648
00:41:47,310 --> 00:41:51,540
actors outbox to get all of its
old posts and show them to you

649
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,270
that the the only way a server
gets posts is if somebody else

650
00:41:57,270 --> 00:42:02,820
has already gotten them. And so
the but the outbox holds, it's

651
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:07,530
like an RSS feed, it holds
everything. Everything that

652
00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:10,860
you've ever posted is in your
outbox, and you can just go in

653
00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:13,020
and pull it. So like,

654
00:42:13,050 --> 00:42:15,750
Adam Curry: ah, forever, it's
just in there or less pruned, I

655
00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:17,400
guess, oh, no, it's

656
00:42:17,399 --> 00:42:19,799
Dave Jones: just there. Like
it's just there. Like every if

657
00:42:19,799 --> 00:42:24,749
you go to like podcast index dot
social, slash users slash Adam

658
00:42:24,749 --> 00:42:29,039
slash outbox, you will see all
of your everything you post is

659
00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:34,529
there. So you can have you can
read that data and just backfill

660
00:42:35,099 --> 00:42:38,609
onto a page. So the, you know,
like pod page or somebody, any

661
00:42:38,609 --> 00:42:44,039
of these apps that do this sort
of thing, can if you have you,

662
00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:47,939
if you have your social interact
in in your feed, you know, just

663
00:42:47,939 --> 00:42:55,919
defining your defining your
activity pub user account, they

664
00:42:55,919 --> 00:42:59,909
can just go grab your outbox,
and it just, it's there. So

665
00:43:00,059 --> 00:43:03,029
there's just so many integration
points here, that makes so much

666
00:43:03,029 --> 00:43:06,209
sense. And again, I'm not going
to try to convince, I'm not

667
00:43:06,209 --> 00:43:08,849
going to go to the mat to try to
convince everybody of these

668
00:43:08,849 --> 00:43:12,929
visions, because the vision will
be expressed to the things that

669
00:43:12,929 --> 00:43:18,749
we ultimately build. And then,
that I'm happy to talk about it.

670
00:43:19,019 --> 00:43:23,129
But I don't want to risk making
people angry or anything like

671
00:43:23,129 --> 00:43:27,779
that, through through arguments.
I think we we all just kind of

672
00:43:27,779 --> 00:43:32,369
state our state our case,
express our visions as best we

673
00:43:32,369 --> 00:43:37,019
can and then we build something.
And then it either works or it

674
00:43:37,019 --> 00:43:40,019
doesn't. You know, I think
ultimately, that's what it comes

675
00:43:40,019 --> 00:43:45,479
down to. And I think that the
like, that's that's where

676
00:43:46,769 --> 00:43:50,549
that's, you know, back to
Alberto been doing the lit

677
00:43:50,549 --> 00:43:54,989
thing. That's what they did,
essentially, they're like they

678
00:43:54,989 --> 00:43:58,169
took they saw enough of the
vision and they're like, Okay,

679
00:43:58,169 --> 00:44:02,669
well, I'm gonna do this. And
now, through the doing of the

680
00:44:02,669 --> 00:44:07,769
thing, the vision became clear
and coherent to them enough to

681
00:44:07,769 --> 00:44:10,739
where Alberto's like, I can
write a whole article about

682
00:44:10,739 --> 00:44:14,159
this, right? It's in showing it
and if you read that article, it

683
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:18,989
is an expression of the lit
vision. It's probably the best

684
00:44:18,989 --> 00:44:22,649
one I've ever read. Better than
this better than myself stack

685
00:44:22,649 --> 00:44:27,569
that I wrote about it a year
ago. You know, I think I think

686
00:44:27,569 --> 00:44:31,679
this is all very instructive
with because it directly relates

687
00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:36,899
to the nostra thing noster voice
versus RSS, which doesn't, you

688
00:44:36,899 --> 00:44:42,419
know, to me seems like a silly
battle, but whatever. But if we

689
00:44:42,419 --> 00:44:52,019
express if we express these
things, in terms of here, let me

690
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:54,299
let me let me just keep going
down this rabbit hole for a

691
00:44:54,299 --> 00:44:59,849
second. Like one of the diff
most difficult things that I've

692
00:44:59,849 --> 00:45:02,609
run Then two so far, and this is
really the last step, once this

693
00:45:02,609 --> 00:45:08,759
step is done in the activity pub
bridge, then we're kind of down.

694
00:45:08,759 --> 00:45:12,629
It's all kind of downhill from
there. And that's a signing HTTP

695
00:45:12,629 --> 00:45:17,639
request with a cryptographic
signature. The activity pub

696
00:45:17,639 --> 00:45:22,409
requires is, you know, and
actually, I don't think the spec

697
00:45:22,439 --> 00:45:27,089
really requires it. I think it's
and they get say it's in the

698
00:45:27,089 --> 00:45:30,509
spec. But I think Mastodon is
the one that made it sort of

699
00:45:30,509 --> 00:45:33,689
mandatory, if you want to play
with them, which you have to

700
00:45:36,749 --> 00:45:43,019
the, the an HTTP HTTP request,
that is asking for some action.

701
00:45:43,019 --> 00:45:46,529
So for instance, when I've when
you follow somebody with an

702
00:45:46,529 --> 00:45:52,169
activity pub, what I follow is,
is a post request, if I follow

703
00:45:52,169 --> 00:45:57,779
you, I'm sending a post request
to your inbox. By cast index dot

704
00:45:57,779 --> 00:46:00,749
social slash user slash Adam
slash inbox, it's a post

705
00:46:00,749 --> 00:46:07,499
request, with a JSON body, this
that of type follow. That

706
00:46:07,499 --> 00:46:12,479
request has to be, quote,
unquote, signed with a

707
00:46:12,479 --> 00:46:19,109
cryptographic signature is an
RSA Sha 256 signature. So it

708
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:25,649
requires hashing the body,
excuse me hashing the headers of

709
00:46:25,649 --> 00:46:30,089
the HTTP request, then taking
that hash, including it in the

710
00:46:30,089 --> 00:46:34,949
body, hashing the entire thing
together, and then signing it

711
00:46:34,949 --> 00:46:42,059
with your private key. So first,
first step, this past week was

712
00:46:45,299 --> 00:46:50,669
determining what signatures are
going to be scheming the keys,

713
00:46:51,899 --> 00:46:55,289
public keys, private keys, you
know, last week, we discussed,

714
00:46:55,289 --> 00:46:57,179
you know, just read the whole
search of the whole bridge, just

715
00:46:57,179 --> 00:47:00,329
use the same keys or whatever,
no, we're not going to do that.

716
00:47:01,859 --> 00:47:04,919
What we're doing is, every time
some if somebody searches,

717
00:47:04,919 --> 00:47:09,059
somebody hits an actor's inbox,
so they hit an inbox for, excuse

718
00:47:09,059 --> 00:47:12,539
me, an actor document for a
podcast, it's going to add that

719
00:47:12,539 --> 00:47:15,299
moment is going to generate a
set of keys, save them in the

720
00:47:15,299 --> 00:47:19,529
database. So now every podcast
will get its own set of keys.

721
00:47:20,699 --> 00:47:29,879
The those keys will then be used
to sign requests to accept a

722
00:47:29,879 --> 00:47:38,069
follow. So in the case where I
follow you, my instance of Matt,

723
00:47:38,069 --> 00:47:41,129
my Mastodon instance is going to
send your is going to send an

724
00:47:41,129 --> 00:47:46,049
HTTP POST request with follow to
your Macedon instance, then

725
00:47:46,049 --> 00:47:49,379
yours is going to respond with a
type of except so it's gonna

726
00:47:49,379 --> 00:47:54,479
say, you know, hey, I want to
follow you follow except this

727
00:47:55,049 --> 00:47:59,639
accepting of this exception
request accept request has to be

728
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:06,779
signed. So that except request
is what we're working on working

729
00:48:06,779 --> 00:48:11,609
on signing, right now, we get to
the point where we're into

730
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:14,039
cryptographic libraries. And
that's what I was talking about

731
00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:18,719
in in Macedon this week, where
once you get here, you're you're

732
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:23,339
in the land of wrapped, uh,
libraries from other languages

733
00:48:23,339 --> 00:48:26,249
that that have the most
confusing documentation on

734
00:48:26,250 --> 00:48:29,610
Adam Curry: the land, Red
Dragons and demons is there.

735
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:30,240
This

736
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,370
Dave Jones: way, there'll be you
know, what, there be dragons or

737
00:48:32,370 --> 00:48:39,420
whatever. Like, it really is bad
in the exam, then I'm tying this

738
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:42,480
all back into the example into
where we talked about the

739
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:53,550
vision. Because when you can see
plenty of example code. The

740
00:48:53,550 --> 00:49:00,510
example code may be in a written
in a way that is completely

741
00:49:00,630 --> 00:49:05,340
foreign to anything that you are
used to. Cryptographic libraries

742
00:49:05,340 --> 00:49:08,850
have this. They have the
strangest ways of expressing

743
00:49:08,850 --> 00:49:13,800
things. I'm a declarative
programmer. And I don't mean

744
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,320
that in the sense of declarative
versus reactive. I mean, like,

745
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:21,330
in the sense that I'm just like,
mostly, line one, line two, line

746
00:49:21,330 --> 00:49:24,570
three, line four, line five and
being like, I'm just blow

747
00:49:24,570 --> 00:49:27,090
through a thing, a break
everything down into the

748
00:49:27,090 --> 00:49:30,240
smallest bite sized chunks, and
string them together.

749
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,720
Cryptographic libraries tend to
not do the head. They do very

750
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:41,670
strange control flow. And so you
have to every time you you're

751
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:45,210
looking at a spec, you're
looking at a spec that's right

752
00:49:45,210 --> 00:49:49,800
in front of you. And it says it
says here's how you do this. And

753
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,230
you're just scratching your head
like What the eff Am I looking

754
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:58,980
at? Like, you have to to
implementing a protocol is

755
00:49:58,980 --> 00:50:04,410
always an exercise I in reading
and reverse engineering, you

756
00:50:04,410 --> 00:50:08,430
have to read the spec to
understand it enough to begin

757
00:50:08,430 --> 00:50:11,850
the process of doing the thing,
but that's not enough. It'll

758
00:50:11,850 --> 00:50:14,910
never be enough. You'll never
blindly write a rhotic write

759
00:50:14,910 --> 00:50:20,070
things to a spec. Step two is
always go see if it works.

760
00:50:20,190 --> 00:50:23,550
Adam Curry: And now I'll just
guess here that activity pub

761
00:50:23,550 --> 00:50:30,870
spec. You know, bang equals
Macedon. Like there's, it's not

762
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:31,890
the same thing.

763
00:50:34,289 --> 00:50:39,779
Dave Jones: It is. I don't know
if it is. I can't. I can't say

764
00:50:39,779 --> 00:50:43,379
one way or another. I think it
mostly conforms to the spec. But

765
00:50:43,379 --> 00:50:47,669
I think they have their own. I
think the only difference is the

766
00:50:47,669 --> 00:50:53,699
headers that it requires you to,
to digest. So like, I

767
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:55,920
Adam Curry: guess, I guess I
mean that differently. I mean,

768
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,780
that in the realm of like, what
Mastodon does is not necessarily

769
00:51:00,780 --> 00:51:04,770
what you can do with activity
pub, the same way someone looks

770
00:51:04,770 --> 00:51:08,730
at Mastodon and says, Hmm, what
is this, like, this is a closed

771
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,260
off thing. You know, there's no
way for a new user to come in

772
00:51:13,650 --> 00:51:18,030
and know that, you know, what
that what the other servers feed

773
00:51:18,030 --> 00:51:20,490
is? Or that you can follow
someone from another server.

774
00:51:20,490 --> 00:51:23,220
There's just no way for someone
to see that and understand

775
00:51:23,220 --> 00:51:26,670
what's going on under the hood.
Is it one big thing? Is that one

776
00:51:26,670 --> 00:51:29,820
big giant database somewhere?
That's kind of what I mean?

777
00:51:30,330 --> 00:51:30,600
Yeah,

778
00:51:30,599 --> 00:51:31,799
Dave Jones: I think you're
right. Yeah, I think that's a

779
00:51:31,799 --> 00:51:35,999
good Yeah, I think that's good.
Yeah, they the Yeah, cuz Macedon

780
00:51:35,999 --> 00:51:39,389
has this weird thing where all
the HTTP, all the HTTP requests

781
00:51:39,389 --> 00:51:44,429
are required to be signed. But
how do you talk to one first,

782
00:51:44,969 --> 00:51:48,329
without knowing one of those
initial signatures, that you

783
00:51:48,329 --> 00:51:50,969
can't verify things that you
something you've never talked to

784
00:51:50,969 --> 00:51:54,659
before? Right? It was because
you don't have the key in

785
00:51:54,659 --> 00:51:57,149
advance. Anyway. So there's,
there's these there's always a

786
00:51:57,149 --> 00:52:06,779
little weird things about
mastodon. The, the, the way, the

787
00:52:06,779 --> 00:52:12,389
reverse engineering part, is
sort of how you take your like,

788
00:52:12,389 --> 00:52:17,819
you write the thing, you try it,
you see it break, and then you

789
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,169
and then you're like, Huh,
that's weird. Why did that

790
00:52:22,169 --> 00:52:26,729
happen? You go back, you look at
the spec. You're like, Okay,

791
00:52:26,729 --> 00:52:31,199
well, maybe I misunderstood that
they gave me this block of stuff

792
00:52:31,199 --> 00:52:34,169
I'm supposed to hash, maybe,
maybe this block of stuff was

793
00:52:34,169 --> 00:52:37,349
just for demonstration purposes,
maybe, maybe the line breaks in

794
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:39,629
it aren't actually supposed to
be there. So you take out the

795
00:52:39,629 --> 00:52:42,059
line breaks. And then you rehash
it, and you redo this thing

796
00:52:42,059 --> 00:52:45,869
again, you'll still fail. You go
through this, you over over over

797
00:52:45,869 --> 00:52:48,809
and over and over until you
finally get something that

798
00:52:48,809 --> 00:52:54,989
almost works. And then you see
Ah, okay, this is what I was

799
00:52:54,989 --> 00:52:59,069
missing. And by the time you're
finished, what you have is your

800
00:52:59,069 --> 00:53:00,239
version of the spec.

801
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,060
Adam Curry: Your marriage is
broken. Your kids have left the

802
00:53:03,060 --> 00:53:03,660
house,

803
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:05,819
Dave Jones: yet power surges.

804
00:53:08,820 --> 00:53:11,070
Adam Curry: Realizing,
Kaczynski, you're living in a

805
00:53:11,070 --> 00:53:11,610
shack.

806
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:17,879
Dave Jones: Big old beard. Yeah,
so that I'm just trying to

807
00:53:17,879 --> 00:53:22,949
express this idea that this is
an overarching thing that we

808
00:53:22,949 --> 00:53:29,969
deal with in all realms of of
programming, namespace respect,

809
00:53:29,969 --> 00:53:33,539
development, interpret, just
interpersonal trying to work

810
00:53:33,539 --> 00:53:37,799
things out between different
parties, like with with RSS, and

811
00:53:37,799 --> 00:53:43,049
mass, and noster. All of these
things suffer from this same

812
00:53:43,049 --> 00:53:47,399
sort of fundamental problem,
which is, you have wishes,

813
00:53:47,399 --> 00:53:52,559
there's a spec and a vision. And
then there's your understanding,

814
00:53:52,589 --> 00:53:56,939
and my understanding. And those,
those are all four separate

815
00:53:56,939 --> 00:53:59,939
completely separate things. And
there's hopefully a Venn diagram

816
00:53:59,939 --> 00:54:05,039
where there's some overlap. And
you look you try to live for,

817
00:54:05,069 --> 00:54:09,629
you know, open source software.
It is hard open source projects

818
00:54:09,629 --> 00:54:13,799
are an attempt to live in the
middle of the intersection of

819
00:54:13,799 --> 00:54:18,479
Venn Diagram of many different
things. And if you do it well,

820
00:54:18,869 --> 00:54:22,889
and don't get burned out, and
live there as much as possible,

821
00:54:23,129 --> 00:54:28,169
good things happen. If you end
up living in the edges where

822
00:54:28,169 --> 00:54:32,999
there's no overlap, you either
leaves the project or nothing.

823
00:54:33,779 --> 00:54:37,889
Nothing fruitful happens. Or you
just end up talking to yourself

824
00:54:37,889 --> 00:54:43,949
on a Google group all day. I
love Venn diagram. If you if you

825
00:54:43,949 --> 00:54:45,959
want this my so I brought a
whole basket here that

826
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:50,190
Adam Curry: I saw. I haven't
listened to him yet. I'll just

827
00:54:50,220 --> 00:54:54,210
I'll just grab one and I'll just
grab one BAM magic. Yes. See?

828
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:54,750
Beautiful.

829
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:56,460
Dave Jones: Thank you, Carrie.
Well, let

830
00:54:56,460 --> 00:54:59,760
Adam Curry: me ask you a
question. So not going to Okay,

831
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,680
so the programming side, I
barely hung on by a thread and I

832
00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:08,370
understand what you're saying.
But of course, I get lost the

833
00:55:08,370 --> 00:55:15,180
vision part, making this peanut
butter jelly sandwich work

834
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:21,930
perfectly. Is your vision now?
Because they started off with

835
00:55:21,930 --> 00:55:29,490
the desire for certification of
the index. Does this mean that

836
00:55:29,490 --> 00:55:33,660
everybody can have their own
part of the index all of the

837
00:55:33,660 --> 00:55:39,660
index? Do I, as a podcaster?
Have? Have my community activity

838
00:55:39,660 --> 00:55:43,230
problems, specifically staying
away from Mastodon server type

839
00:55:43,290 --> 00:55:47,550
names? Is it something that I
have an account on through an

840
00:55:47,550 --> 00:55:53,400
ISP? Is it both? Is it can I
will I be following podcast

841
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,800
through this and my app actually
talks to my own index? Can by

842
00:55:58,800 --> 00:55:59,580
going too far?

843
00:56:01,829 --> 00:56:04,829
Dave Jones: There that's I
think, ultimately, the vision is

844
00:56:04,829 --> 00:56:09,539
to is to fortify things to the
point. But I guess we say four

845
00:56:09,539 --> 00:56:12,299
to five things and
decentralized. By

846
00:56:12,300 --> 00:56:15,420
Adam Curry: definition, with
edification, to me is is

847
00:56:15,420 --> 00:56:16,500
decentralization.

848
00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:18,479
Dave Jones: I guess I'm deep
meaning it is like,

849
00:56:18,479 --> 00:56:22,379
decentralizing the actual
ownership. So that there because

850
00:56:22,379 --> 00:56:27,479
what I think what we eventually
want is, like different. You

851
00:56:27,479 --> 00:56:32,069
know, I mean, what we want is
what I Potter was, where you own

852
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:34,829
your part of the directory on my
part?

853
00:56:35,489 --> 00:56:38,909
Adam Curry: Well, then what are
we? Freedom controller? What are

854
00:56:38,909 --> 00:56:42,089
you gonna buy? We're back to the
freedom controller.

855
00:56:42,450 --> 00:56:47,340
Dave Jones: I mean, it it
really, we get I can, you know,

856
00:56:47,370 --> 00:56:54,660
we can envision Jane know, James
owning Australia, Sam owning it,

857
00:56:54,720 --> 00:56:59,820
you know, Northern, you know,
Western Europe. I mean, like,

858
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,350
that's what, like, I guess what
we want, and what I mean, is

859
00:57:04,410 --> 00:57:07,710
what I'm gonna say own, I mean,
like, be actually authoritative.

860
00:57:07,740 --> 00:57:10,020
Adam Curry: Well, hold on a
second, because the just so

861
00:57:10,020 --> 00:57:15,210
everyone understands. I
potter.org was initially a world

862
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,090
outline, you'll have to look
that one up. But it was the

863
00:57:18,090 --> 00:57:23,880
concept of OPML, outline process
process or markup language,

864
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,890
where you can use includes. And
so I potter.org, the I made up

865
00:57:28,890 --> 00:57:33,780
my own top level, which I did by
geographic region, it could have

866
00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:37,740
been by interest or anything.
And I said, Okay, I'm looking

867
00:57:37,740 --> 00:57:40,920
for someone from Australia, that
actually Germany was probably

868
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,290
the first one or the Netherlands
or whatever. But this person

869
00:57:43,290 --> 00:57:45,630
would say, oh, I can do that.
I'll maintain it for you. If

870
00:57:45,630 --> 00:57:50,700
they would put an OPML file an
outline on their own server

871
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:53,340
somewhere, which is part of the
beauty and part the weakness, of

872
00:57:53,340 --> 00:57:57,660
course. And then they would put
underneath that some did it by

873
00:57:57,660 --> 00:58:01,350
region of the country, some did
it by interest group, there are

874
00:58:01,350 --> 00:58:03,870
all these different all these
different ways that people were

875
00:58:03,870 --> 00:58:07,920
organize it. But it was, if
you're familiar with gopher

876
00:58:08,130 --> 00:58:12,570
spring back, Gopher, it was very
similar to that where you just

877
00:58:12,570 --> 00:58:15,450
it was just meant you click OK.
Now I'm in Germany, click what's

878
00:58:15,450 --> 00:58:18,780
in Germany, and the person in
Germany might have said, Okay,

879
00:58:18,810 --> 00:58:22,680
I'm including outlines from this
guy. He's going to do all these

880
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:26,100
these types of podcasts. And
this lady over there, she's

881
00:58:26,100 --> 00:58:29,370
really good at tracking hobby
podcasts. So she would maintain

882
00:58:29,370 --> 00:58:34,050
that outline episode, there's no
real defined structure. So it

883
00:58:34,050 --> 00:58:38,820
never became like Yahoo was
originally a directory with real

884
00:58:38,820 --> 00:58:45,330
defined topics. But what was
beautiful about it is you could

885
00:58:45,330 --> 00:58:49,590
walk the tree. And so I built
this really horrible script that

886
00:58:49,590 --> 00:58:53,040
would walk the tree and go
through everybody's node

887
00:58:53,250 --> 00:58:56,640
overnight and sometimes took a
really long time, especially if

888
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,660
it broke somewhere. And it would
bring back what was new ale and

889
00:59:00,660 --> 00:59:03,360
then I would pop that to the top
of the stack and be so but it

890
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:10,260
was a very, I thought beautiful
way to connect all podcast

891
00:59:10,260 --> 00:59:10,770
together.

892
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,580
Dave Jones: It is it that is
beautiful. And of course it

893
00:59:14,580 --> 00:59:19,500
breaks. It breaks with scale.
Same way DNS, like used to be

894
00:59:19,500 --> 00:59:24,390
just a big a single file of
names and IP addresses.

895
00:59:24,780 --> 00:59:26,850
individually. It's like, okay,
well, this has to become a

896
00:59:26,850 --> 00:59:30,690
decentralized thing where
everybody owns their own chunk

897
00:59:31,350 --> 00:59:36,030
of DNS and serves it. That
that's the same type of thing

898
00:59:36,030 --> 00:59:42,060
that I think we are headed for.
Wow, that's pretty big. I, I own

899
00:59:42,060 --> 00:59:47,790
my like, we could probably do it
to a certain extent, in an ugly

900
00:59:47,790 --> 00:59:50,880
way quickly, which is not an
attractive thing to do, and we

901
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:56,100
won't, but I mean, it could be
done. If you hadn't listed

902
00:59:56,100 --> 01:00:03,060
imagine right now you have seven
people And one person runs an

903
01:00:03,060 --> 01:00:09,210
index that handles feed IDs,
zero through a million person

904
01:00:09,210 --> 01:00:12,870
number to 1,000,001 through 2
million, you just had seven

905
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:17,760
different indexes. Oh, there's
only there's less than 7 million

906
01:00:18,930 --> 01:00:25,290
podcast in the database right
now. So that would work. You

907
01:00:25,290 --> 01:00:27,600
know, that's, that's too ugly,
we're not going to do that. But

908
01:00:27,690 --> 01:00:31,710
that's that's sort of the idea.
There's like you, you shard the

909
01:00:31,710 --> 01:00:36,750
database and have different
ownership. And then it comes in

910
01:00:36,750 --> 01:00:44,130
through various income points,
those can be HTTP REST requests

911
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,640
to a front end API that just
load balances to whichever

912
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,240
appropriate database is going on
in the background. It could be,

913
01:00:52,740 --> 01:00:55,740
you know, some sort of like DHT
IPFS style gateway.

914
01:00:55,889 --> 01:00:58,289
Adam Curry: So the way the way
to bootstrap that, if I

915
01:00:58,289 --> 01:01:02,909
understand you, is to have
people start their individual

916
01:01:02,939 --> 01:01:06,509
indexes, which are actually
landing pages for these

917
01:01:06,509 --> 01:01:11,669
podcasts, landing pages and
community areas. So for

918
01:01:11,669 --> 01:01:14,759
instance, all know, agenda
stream podcast could be handled

919
01:01:14,759 --> 01:01:19,139
by the no agenda social.com
activity pub?

920
01:01:20,579 --> 01:01:23,789
Dave Jones: Possibly, yeah, that
could be one way to do it, I can

921
01:01:23,789 --> 01:01:28,079
see a few ways to slice it, that
would be one way. And that's if

922
01:01:28,079 --> 01:01:31,799
this activity pub bridge is
generic enough. And that's the

923
01:01:31,799 --> 01:01:34,739
goal is that that's how

924
01:01:34,740 --> 01:01:37,890
Adam Curry: you that's how you
distributed. So have a repo

925
01:01:37,890 --> 01:01:41,940
Yeah, and you just pull it in
from so then you build a bridge

926
01:01:41,940 --> 01:01:45,300
that comes in from the index
into your activity pub server,

927
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,520
Mastodon or not. And that
becomes a landing pages. And

928
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,270
Dave Jones: then you're, you're
talking to the actual index

929
01:01:54,270 --> 01:01:57,810
itself, right? Until you have
until you

930
01:01:57,810 --> 01:02:00,030
Adam Curry: eventually are
getting your updates from the

931
01:02:00,030 --> 01:02:02,580
RSS feed or pod paying or
somewhere else.

932
01:02:03,149 --> 01:02:06,419
Dave Jones: Yeah, because you
can have you could have, for

933
01:02:06,419 --> 01:02:09,359
instance, you know, and right
now it talks to the index, but

934
01:02:09,359 --> 01:02:12,839
maybe you want it to talk
directly to your feed. And not

935
01:02:12,839 --> 01:02:16,979
and not in not include not have
to go do do an HTTP. That's,

936
01:02:17,009 --> 01:02:19,139
that's right. Another way to do
it. Because if you wanted to

937
01:02:19,139 --> 01:02:23,099
have like your description, if
you want to download, download

938
01:02:23,099 --> 01:02:31,199
the repo, run it and have it
just talk to the no agenda, RSS

939
01:02:31,199 --> 01:02:35,489
feed, then you can have an
activity pub.no agenda

940
01:02:35,819 --> 01:02:40,679
notes.com. And it's just an
interest in all that is is a

941
01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:44,879
gateway to your feed. But
somebody else may want to be a

942
01:02:44,879 --> 01:02:47,429
gateway for the whole index. And
they can do that

943
01:02:47,429 --> 01:02:50,159
Adam Curry: too. Right. So
right, right, right. Which is

944
01:02:50,159 --> 01:02:52,349
and that's perfectly fine. Yeah,

945
01:02:52,380 --> 01:02:57,840
Dave Jones: or blueberry, or
Buzzsprout can run AP, you know,

946
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:02,370
activity pub that blueberry.com.
And all their feet. Yeah.

947
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,590
Adam Curry: Which is actually
probably a great way to do it.

948
01:03:04,590 --> 01:03:07,830
But you can still have your own
for your own feet and not have

949
01:03:07,830 --> 01:03:12,870
to use their system, even though
they'll have it. Right. And how

950
01:03:12,870 --> 01:03:14,790
do you work with dupes? And in
that case,

951
01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:17,879
Dave Jones: no, don't stop
talking. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

952
01:03:20,429 --> 01:03:21,149
duplicates.

953
01:03:23,130 --> 01:03:26,310
Adam Curry: duping guy. I mean,
they come in to the to the email

954
01:03:26,310 --> 01:03:29,010
box. And I can see something
like two days old. And when I

955
01:03:29,010 --> 01:03:31,620
get to it at the bottom my box
like Oh, Dave didn't want to

956
01:03:31,650 --> 01:03:33,210
deal with that one. Okay, I got
it.

957
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:39,180
Dave Jones: It's I had a wish
list of two things that I could

958
01:03:39,180 --> 01:03:44,370
like that somebody would come up
and say, you know, hey, I'm

959
01:03:44,370 --> 01:03:51,330
going to do a volunteer to do X.
One of them would be you can

960
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,620
write some stuff that would look
at the downloadable weekly

961
01:03:55,620 --> 01:03:57,810
database and try to find

962
01:03:57,810 --> 01:04:00,300
Adam Curry: a do try to D dupe
it. Right.

963
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:06,150
Dave Jones: And then another one
would be write some code that

964
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:09,930
will monitor our API and send me
a bad signal. If something goes

965
01:04:09,930 --> 01:04:13,830
wonky. There's those are if
anybody if anybody wants to pick

966
01:04:13,830 --> 01:04:17,010
either of those two projects, I
would love that. Like I would

967
01:04:17,010 --> 01:04:20,880
love I need an early warning
system like something that hits

968
01:04:21,210 --> 01:04:27,360
some some of the critical API
endpoints like search, and in

969
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,470
some of the other ones, like I
don't every three or four

970
01:04:31,470 --> 01:04:35,700
minutes doesn't have to it's
very low volume. And just if

971
01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:37,890
something doesn't return, right
or if somebody would get a

972
01:04:37,890 --> 01:04:41,790
timeout, then shoot like shoot
me an email or a push

973
01:04:41,790 --> 01:04:45,330
notification or something. Or or
actually or post it to the

974
01:04:45,330 --> 01:04:48,840
mastodon or send me like do some
sort of automated alerting

975
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:50,940
because I'm not a need some of
that.

976
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:56,850
Adam Curry: In the meantime, if
you find a dupe just email it to

977
01:04:56,850 --> 01:04:57,120
me

978
01:04:59,639 --> 01:05:01,259
Dave Jones: in So that's the

979
01:05:01,289 --> 01:05:04,169
Adam Curry: no I don't mind it,
but I, what I have a problem

980
01:05:04,169 --> 01:05:08,909
with is people saying, Hi, I'm
John. There's three versions of

981
01:05:08,909 --> 01:05:12,389
my podcast in the index, can you
please remove the older two

982
01:05:12,389 --> 01:05:19,109
ones? And thanks, you know, you
got no URLs you know, is I can

983
01:05:19,109 --> 01:05:21,419
usually discern if I think
someone is the real deal of

984
01:05:21,419 --> 01:05:24,299
their owner. That's, you know,
that's usually pretty easy to

985
01:05:24,299 --> 01:05:27,539
see even though it's not
foolproof, but even then it's

986
01:05:27,539 --> 01:05:30,269
like, well, I'm not gonna think
I'm not even going to try and

987
01:05:30,269 --> 01:05:33,119
think this is the older one now
you tell me what you want

988
01:05:33,119 --> 01:05:37,109
removed. I'll do that for you.

989
01:05:37,950 --> 01:05:44,640
Dave Jones: But yeah, like I
have a feed that it's missing

990
01:05:44,910 --> 01:05:50,100
some of the episodes in it's
called Daily News. Like Oh dude,

991
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:53,580
do you like 100 of those in the
index? Come on,

992
01:05:53,879 --> 01:05:56,189
Adam Curry: allow me to just
read quick two quick booster

993
01:05:56,189 --> 01:06:00,119
grams because I think it's, it's
not the same but it may be and I

994
01:06:00,119 --> 01:06:02,909
just so we're all on the same
page. We don't get ahead of each

995
01:06:02,939 --> 01:06:08,069
of ourselves. Assam Sethi
boosting Hello Sam in in the UK,

996
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:13,259
cold cold UK. Can't believe you
guys brought Cameron back. So

997
01:06:13,259 --> 01:06:17,069
10,000 SATs from Sam Sethi pod
fans was of course pod fans was

998
01:06:17,069 --> 01:06:21,179
built from day one. To support
activity streams. We use actor

999
01:06:21,179 --> 01:06:25,619
verb object as the structure we
have 30 plus verbs. And we can

1000
01:06:25,619 --> 01:06:29,549
track user behavior using
gamification. And second, we

1001
01:06:29,549 --> 01:06:32,939
have a vision to export or
publish people's activity like

1002
01:06:32,939 --> 01:06:37,139
RSS feeds or other apps can
import this activity feed. This

1003
01:06:37,139 --> 01:06:40,199
is how we get Prasat boost
clips, subscriptions follows

1004
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:42,839
etc. That sounds like it's
something else from what we're

1005
01:06:42,839 --> 01:06:47,189
talking about here. Or is it
something that happens down the

1006
01:06:47,189 --> 01:06:47,759
road?

1007
01:06:48,660 --> 01:06:51,930
Dave Jones: I think it's I think
it's a layer on top. I think

1008
01:06:51,930 --> 01:06:54,960
it's like fade, I think not fade
but like like, that sounds like

1009
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,320
layer two, like I'm I'm T I'm
talking about like layer like a

1010
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:04,200
layer one. Sort of a more
fundamental. And then then that

1011
01:07:04,500 --> 01:07:09,780
sort of adding once you have
that, that's that's in his app.

1012
01:07:09,780 --> 01:07:13,500
And then once you have this,
then those you can always

1013
01:07:13,500 --> 01:07:15,870
Adam Curry: come alive, right?
It's a little bit the cart

1014
01:07:15,870 --> 01:07:17,790
before the horse in this net.

1015
01:07:17,790 --> 01:07:20,430
Dave Jones: Well, now it's
didn't then once we if we did

1016
01:07:20,430 --> 01:07:23,610
that, then we then we can talk
to pod fans better, like

1017
01:07:23,700 --> 01:07:25,440
everything starts to jive, you
know,

1018
01:07:25,710 --> 01:07:26,220
Adam Curry: right.

1019
01:07:28,139 --> 01:07:30,509
Dave Jones: Okay, that's if they
understand what he's saying

1020
01:07:30,509 --> 01:07:31,019
correctly.

1021
01:07:32,610 --> 01:07:35,370
Adam Curry: Well, Sam's building
his own little Emporium. He's

1022
01:07:35,370 --> 01:07:39,360
building his own podcast index
over there. He's importing feeds

1023
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:40,380
and validating them.

1024
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:44,850
Dave Jones: He's compete. He's
competing with Steven V for the

1025
01:07:44,850 --> 01:07:50,730
most the most apps. What? He's
having a real hard time with

1026
01:07:50,730 --> 01:07:56,070
valid with feed validation. Yes.
And what us? You know, my first

1027
01:07:56,070 --> 01:07:59,490
thought is, welcome to The Club,
man. They're really

1028
01:07:59,519 --> 01:08:01,919
Adam Curry: we've been doing
this for FinTech for 10 years.

1029
01:08:01,979 --> 01:08:04,739
12 years, Dave, we've been doing
validation.

1030
01:08:05,249 --> 01:08:07,439
Dave Jones: It is a complete
nightmare. It's the amount of

1031
01:08:07,439 --> 01:08:07,979
times

1032
01:08:08,010 --> 01:08:09,930
Adam Curry: that I that I would
that I would be using the

1033
01:08:09,930 --> 01:08:13,710
freedom controller, certainly in
the early days, early years, and

1034
01:08:13,710 --> 01:08:18,510
I say Hey, Dave, I subscribe to
this feed. But you know, look at

1035
01:08:18,510 --> 01:08:21,090
how it shows up or it didn't
show up. Or why is it doing

1036
01:08:21,090 --> 01:08:24,810
this? I mean, you built a set of
rules that is astronomical.

1037
01:08:25,380 --> 01:08:29,310
Dave Jones: I have seen God I
think I've seen every verb. What

1038
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:33,660
do you think podcast feeds are
bad. Go check out blogs. Yeah.

1039
01:08:33,750 --> 01:08:38,310
Oh my gosh, they are a
nightmare. You will see. I've

1040
01:08:38,310 --> 01:08:45,330
seen an RSS feeds with 25,000
items in them. And they only

1041
01:08:45,330 --> 01:08:51,390
have a validate. Validate.
There's no pub date. There's no

1042
01:08:51,420 --> 01:08:55,200
Gu ID. There's nothing except a
title tag. And the title tag is

1043
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:56,490
the exact same on every one.

1044
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,830
Adam Curry: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just
more fun. Oh, those are the

1045
01:08:58,830 --> 01:09:01,380
worst. Yeah, that's the worst.
Like, Hey, can you for this

1046
01:09:01,380 --> 01:09:04,170
particular feed? Can you take
this tag and put that in the

1047
01:09:04,170 --> 01:09:07,530
title tag to make it work? I
remember. I remember all that.

1048
01:09:07,530 --> 01:09:10,950
Sure. Like, I can't discern
anything from this thing. Yeah,

1049
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:13,770
Dave Jones: the broader RSS
ecosystem is it makes the

1050
01:09:13,770 --> 01:09:17,010
podcasting RSS ecosystem look
tame. It does.

1051
01:09:17,220 --> 01:09:21,000
Adam Curry: The does. Well, I'm
excited. I mean, I know it's a

1052
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:26,160
slow build. And it's, it's
infrastructure level. You know,

1053
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:29,250
I'm kind of like Sam, I guess
I'm like, okay, so what did we

1054
01:09:29,250 --> 01:09:31,650
do on the top here? I'm already
at landing pages communities.

1055
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:34,200
Oh, wow. But we got a lot of
stuff to do under the hood

1056
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,170
first, and then it seems like
the first thing is figuring out

1057
01:09:37,170 --> 01:09:42,060
this cryptographic handshaking
stuff, which is a is a complex.

1058
01:09:42,570 --> 01:09:47,220
Dave Jones: I'm close. I'm close
on that. I've, uh, found a found

1059
01:09:47,220 --> 01:09:52,590
a few libraries that I can work
with. And then I found you last

1060
01:09:52,590 --> 01:09:58,110
night that I want to, I think I
found the last piece of the

1061
01:09:58,110 --> 01:10:01,380
puzzle that one of the Another
problem with cryptic

1062
01:10:01,410 --> 01:10:05,670
cryptographic stuff is they
return crazy types. So instead

1063
01:10:05,670 --> 01:10:14,070
of, they don't work like humans
expect. So, for instance, we're

1064
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:19,260
storing in the database, we're
storing a public key and a

1065
01:10:19,260 --> 01:10:27,420
private key. And the, we're
storing for simplicity to avoid

1066
01:10:27,420 --> 01:10:32,250
type messes. I'm just storing
them as PEM encoded strings. So

1067
01:10:32,250 --> 01:10:34,410
that's like, you know how you
Yeah, when you see the

1068
01:10:34,410 --> 01:10:39,390
signature, it says, like, begin
RSA key, and it's got the

1069
01:10:39,390 --> 01:10:42,570
dashes, and then it has a big
base 64 encoded thing. And then

1070
01:10:42,570 --> 01:10:46,230
at the end, it says End Mino
string, like, that's just text.

1071
01:10:46,230 --> 01:10:49,350
So it's okay, we're just going
to store that as text. And then

1072
01:10:49,350 --> 01:10:54,960
I'm going to convert that from
the PEM encoded text back into a

1073
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:59,310
private key so that I can then
sign the request. Well, the

1074
01:10:59,310 --> 01:11:05,430
functions are the methods that
return that do that. They were

1075
01:11:05,460 --> 01:11:10,080
they don't necessarily return a
type that is in any way useful

1076
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:14,580
for any other library. So they
may return just an array an

1077
01:11:14,580 --> 01:11:18,420
array of bytes. And like, what
do I do with this? I mean, like,

1078
01:11:19,020 --> 01:11:22,080
it's actually, it's not that
it's not that it actually would

1079
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,170
be pretty useful. It gets worse
because they're what they return

1080
01:11:25,170 --> 01:11:29,940
is their own custom type, their
own custom structure with all

1081
01:11:29,940 --> 01:11:33,300
these members, but what ends up
really being at the heart, just

1082
01:11:33,300 --> 01:11:35,490
an array of bytes. And it's
like, just give me the array,

1083
01:11:35,490 --> 01:11:37,260
just give me the array of bytes.
I can do what I want to with it

1084
01:11:37,260 --> 01:11:41,280
that, you know, like, it's just
the whole, it's, so I finally

1085
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,820
think I figured out the chain
that I need. And if I can get

1086
01:11:44,820 --> 01:11:48,360
that done, we may be able to
actually start following some

1087
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:50,520
podcasts next week.

1088
01:11:50,970 --> 01:11:53,460
Adam Curry: Oh, okay. This is
this is moving quickly. That's

1089
01:11:53,460 --> 01:11:55,050
nice. One

1090
01:11:55,050 --> 01:11:59,910
Dave Jones: delay of this and is
that, Nick? I'm long overdue to

1091
01:11:59,910 --> 01:12:02,550
get back to the namespace.
Because there's a lot of there's

1092
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:06,180
stuff happening there that that
needs. chaperoning,

1093
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:07,980
Adam Curry: you want to talk
about that for a second I want

1094
01:12:07,980 --> 01:12:09,810
to talk about I can't

1095
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:11,100
Dave Jones: I don't even know
what's going on over there.

1096
01:12:13,650 --> 01:12:16,320
Adam Curry: All I know is that
James Cridland still wants

1097
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:19,290
podcasts images gone is no good.
Get rid of it.

1098
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:23,550
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's what I
didn't even know what tag you

1099
01:12:23,550 --> 01:12:24,750
wanted. Did. Wasn't

1100
01:12:24,750 --> 01:12:27,030
Adam Curry: that a drop in for
iTunes? Wasn't that the whole

1101
01:12:27,030 --> 01:12:28,860
point of? No.

1102
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:34,740
Dave Jones: Oh, no. So there's
stuff happening over there that

1103
01:12:34,740 --> 01:12:39,240
I need to go to get into enough
of dedicated next week to

1104
01:12:40,050 --> 01:12:42,660
Thanksgiving week is namespace
week. I'm going to live in the

1105
01:12:42,660 --> 01:12:45,810
namespace. Oh, get up to speed
on what's happening. There

1106
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,690
Adam Curry: I go. So we'll have
some hot namespace talk next

1107
01:12:48,690 --> 01:12:52,470
week in the boardroom. I'll
alert the dancing girls.

1108
01:12:53,580 --> 01:12:56,700
Dave Jones: With Friday I have a
family thing so I don't think I

1109
01:12:56,700 --> 01:13:00,240
can do the show Friday at normal
time now. Okay. Well, we have

1110
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:01,500
family thanksgiving and Fred.

1111
01:13:01,890 --> 01:13:03,600
Adam Curry: Well, who says
you're allowed to have that?

1112
01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:07,260
Dave Jones: The lady that owns
the house?

1113
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:10,920
Adam Curry: It's called a
Friendsgiving. Dave but keep up

1114
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:13,320
with the kids will Yeah, it's
Friendsgiving it's not

1115
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:16,050
Thanksgiving. We can't thank
anybody. It's just friends

1116
01:13:16,050 --> 01:13:16,650
giving.

1117
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,490
Dave Jones: I think I think
that's the case. Without that

1118
01:13:20,490 --> 01:13:22,410
we'll check. Well, we didn't
figure that out on signal.

1119
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:27,690
Adam Curry: Wow, okay. Well,
that's a lot. That's a lot.

1120
01:13:28,410 --> 01:13:31,920
You've been you've been deep in
that brother real deep.

1121
01:13:32,820 --> 01:13:35,190
Dave Jones: was yeah, I need
air. See, was

1122
01:13:35,190 --> 01:13:38,100
Adam Curry: there anything else
that that popped to the top of

1123
01:13:38,100 --> 01:13:41,790
the stack I'm trying to think
of, of any things that we needed

1124
01:13:41,790 --> 01:13:45,270
to discuss I mean, right now I'm
I'm still just riding high on

1125
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:51,060
the music podcasting. I am so
loving it. I'm seeing guys come

1126
01:13:51,060 --> 01:13:56,280
in this guy Cody from Kerrville
he got Adobe Das has been just a

1127
01:13:56,280 --> 01:14:00,240
gem. You know, of course, he's
is a pretty small with RSS.

1128
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:05,160
blue.com. But, you know, I sent
this guy radio guy said, All

1129
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:10,110
right, now you got RSS blue.com
You'll figure it out. I I can't

1130
01:14:10,110 --> 01:14:14,490
be doing this support for
everybody. But you know, all of

1131
01:14:14,490 --> 01:14:17,790
a sudden, boom sidestream music
podcasts on the 1000 really

1132
01:14:17,790 --> 01:14:20,520
helpful and really worked out
and I got it all rockin. And

1133
01:14:20,700 --> 01:14:23,970
he's onboarding musicians. And
we got to Steve Webb is

1134
01:14:23,970 --> 01:14:27,450
onboarding people from the 70s
who own their music again, and

1135
01:14:27,450 --> 01:14:30,360
are just blown away like you
know, they're, they have either

1136
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:34,740
they're retired and have some
some savings or, or they were

1137
01:14:34,740 --> 01:14:39,300
super successful, but they're
just amazed to see that they

1138
01:14:39,300 --> 01:14:43,710
actually see value coming in as
like, people are liking my

1139
01:14:43,710 --> 01:14:47,970
stuff. It's so beautiful to
watch. It's just phenomenal.

1140
01:14:48,810 --> 01:14:51,930
Dave Jones: Is when you're when
you're small, like Devadasi

1141
01:14:51,930 --> 01:14:56,850
you're shifty. Yes, you're
agile. Then you can do whatever

1142
01:14:56,850 --> 01:14:58,080
you want. Pod

1143
01:14:58,080 --> 01:14:59,670
Adam Curry: home.fm is another
one.

1144
01:15:01,290 --> 01:15:06,660
Dave Jones: Barry pushed a put
Barry and a couple other people

1145
01:15:06,660 --> 01:15:10,470
had some stuff. They had some
PRs on the main website that I

1146
01:15:10,470 --> 01:15:12,240
pushed to production today, so
that should be caught

1147
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:15,060
Adam Curry: up, though in the
podcast app on the Apps page.

1148
01:15:15,060 --> 01:15:16,890
Cool. Cool. Yep. Yep. Yep. So

1149
01:15:16,890 --> 01:15:20,640
Dave Jones: that think that
should be all good. Yeah, I

1150
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:25,980
think I think the there's
nothing I think of anything else

1151
01:15:25,980 --> 01:15:27,120
pressing time for

1152
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:30,210
Adam Curry: nice. Oh my god.
There we go. Um, time for Nisa

1153
01:15:30,270 --> 01:15:32,580
that always helps a little bit
helps a little bit.

1154
01:15:33,900 --> 01:15:37,440
Dave Jones: Did you listen to
that on the media thing? So the

1155
01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:38,400
without, I guess

1156
01:15:38,430 --> 01:15:40,320
Adam Curry: you mean, the one
where they erase two years of

1157
01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:44,010
podcast history. Yeah, that
nothing happened between this

1158
01:15:44,010 --> 01:15:48,960
and then I met apple that but
what was really interesting to

1159
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,440
me is it really solidified what
had happened. I mean, we're in.

1160
01:15:52,740 --> 01:15:56,190
We're in a podcast winter. And
I've been through a podcast

1161
01:15:56,190 --> 01:16:02,700
winter before. And it was really
right after podcasting exploded

1162
01:16:02,700 --> 01:16:07,200
with it. It was an iTunes and
what happened there is Twitter,

1163
01:16:07,710 --> 01:16:15,360
and Twitter. Because podcasting,
what was happening in 2007 2678.

1164
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:20,190
Of course, we had a couple of
things. The main, I'd say beyond

1165
01:16:20,190 --> 01:16:23,850
the iPod was the iPhone that
came out and beyond the

1166
01:16:23,850 --> 01:16:28,440
excitement around what could be
done with that. But Twitter

1167
01:16:28,470 --> 01:16:32,610
didn't launch as odio as a as a
podcast company, but launched as

1168
01:16:32,610 --> 01:16:37,380
a microblogging site, because
that's truly what it was. And

1169
01:16:37,380 --> 01:16:40,830
was initially based on RSS feeds
and got real smart, real quick,

1170
01:16:40,830 --> 01:16:44,310
like, you want to be the
aggregator of all things feeds

1171
01:16:44,310 --> 01:16:47,250
and the publisher, goodbye,
that's not going to work. It's

1172
01:16:47,250 --> 01:16:52,170
not efficient. That's hence that
the fail whale. But then, you

1173
01:16:52,170 --> 01:16:56,220
know, remember what the reason
why Twitter really hit big time

1174
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:01,260
is because well, one, the genius
of the term follow. Instead of

1175
01:17:01,260 --> 01:17:03,900
subscribe, they came up with
follow, which I think was just

1176
01:17:03,900 --> 01:17:08,310
still genius genius idea because
then you could follow Ashton

1177
01:17:08,310 --> 01:17:11,940
Kutcher and Demi Moore who were
tweeting back and forth their

1178
01:17:11,940 --> 01:17:15,840
love affair was on Twitter. You
know, the artists, they all

1179
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:19,470
started to get on Twitter and
had followings. And then when

1180
01:17:19,470 --> 01:17:22,140
you have follow up, this is all
this is all the old world, you

1181
01:17:22,140 --> 01:17:24,930
know, like, oh, how many
followers and how many likes and

1182
01:17:24,930 --> 01:17:29,280
it became this whole thing, and
then Facebook and then YouTube

1183
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:33,330
came? And, and I'd say YouTube
is probably was probably the

1184
01:17:33,330 --> 01:17:36,720
most destructive or the most,
the biggest freeze for

1185
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:41,100
podcasting. Even my own company,
bomb I got I had meetings board

1186
01:17:41,100 --> 01:17:44,970
meetings with, with the venture
capital investors, like, be more

1187
01:17:44,970 --> 01:17:50,190
like YouTube. Yeah. And so we
wound up doing a lot of video,

1188
01:17:50,220 --> 01:17:54,870
it was it was pretty much all
video. And what happened. And

1189
01:17:54,870 --> 01:17:58,560
this is why I always say you
can't monetize the network is

1190
01:17:58,770 --> 01:18:03,390
when you try to aggregate
everything. And and you know,

1191
01:18:03,810 --> 01:18:09,750
it's kind of normal for people
to settle into. Alright, this is

1192
01:18:09,750 --> 01:18:14,280
not pirate radio anymore. We
need executive producers and

1193
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,820
producers and Associate
Executive producers, and we need

1194
01:18:17,820 --> 01:18:21,420
people to get lunch and we need
to studios and bigger studios

1195
01:18:21,420 --> 01:18:25,140
and nicer studios. And we need
ad sales. And we need podcaster

1196
01:18:25,140 --> 01:18:28,380
relations, to talk to the people
when they were upset that they

1197
01:18:28,380 --> 01:18:31,080
didn't get an ad buy and you
need people to talk to the

1198
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:39,900
advertisers. And just when when
Spotify came in and said, here's

1199
01:18:39,900 --> 01:18:44,640
our huge companies with a
billion dollars, everybody, I

1200
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:48,900
don't care who you are, you were
hoping for a buyout. You were

1201
01:18:48,900 --> 01:18:52,800
hoping for Spotify to buy your
hosting company for Spotify to

1202
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:58,230
buy your podcasts or Spotify to
buy you. There's it's normal,

1203
01:18:58,230 --> 01:19:02,850
it's just normal. And they made
a huge bet and ran it like

1204
01:19:02,850 --> 01:19:06,510
Hollywood and ran it straight
into the ground at what happened

1205
01:19:06,510 --> 01:19:11,670
at NPR, which is really accents
on the media as an NPR, you

1206
01:19:11,670 --> 01:19:16,680
know, that runs on NPR stations
and WNYC they had people on

1207
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:21,390
podcasts that had a million
dollar budget. And, and you

1208
01:19:21,390 --> 01:19:24,450
know, there was and here's the
weakness of it all because I

1209
01:19:24,450 --> 01:19:30,900
also listened to that a CEO of
The New York Times who was on my

1210
01:19:30,900 --> 01:19:35,130
hatless and Unpivot. And, you
know, the question was, you

1211
01:19:35,130 --> 01:19:37,290
know, so you know, they've
they've purchased so the New

1212
01:19:37,290 --> 01:19:40,830
York Times, and I don't fault
them for this because print, the

1213
01:19:40,860 --> 01:19:44,940
newspapers are dead. And the
reason why is newspapers used to

1214
01:19:45,300 --> 01:19:49,530
have news of do journalism, but
it was paid for by classified

1215
01:19:49,530 --> 01:19:52,410
ads, and I went through this
whole history, and they laughed

1216
01:19:52,410 --> 01:19:55,620
at me when I said, you know,
this thing called Craigslist,

1217
01:19:55,620 --> 01:19:59,310
it's going to take away your
revenue. It's never gonna

1218
01:19:59,310 --> 01:20:03,480
happen. So it did. And you know,
so the New York Times has 10

1219
01:20:03,480 --> 01:20:07,230
million subscribers. Do you know
what people really subscribe to

1220
01:20:07,230 --> 01:20:13,080
The New York Times for? Word a
word? wordles? Yes. Wordle

1221
01:20:13,470 --> 01:20:16,860
Wordle. So they bought word Oh,
they also now sports is another

1222
01:20:16,860 --> 01:20:19,650
thing that they bought. The
athletic, I think is what it's

1223
01:20:19,650 --> 01:20:22,080
called. So that's fun

1224
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:23,880
Dave Jones: video game company.
Yes. Yeah.

1225
01:20:24,090 --> 01:20:27,540
Adam Curry: So that and the CEO
is honest. She says, you know,

1226
01:20:28,440 --> 01:20:32,010
the way we the way we run our
companies, every the first

1227
01:20:32,010 --> 01:20:35,190
dollar of every dollar you make
goes into the newsroom, which

1228
01:20:35,220 --> 01:20:38,400
Okay, yeah, money is pretty
fungible. But I'll take your

1229
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,340
Dave Jones: word. I'll tell you
the first one, the first note,

1230
01:20:41,370 --> 01:20:41,790
so

1231
01:20:42,090 --> 01:20:45,030
Adam Curry: it's just $1? No,
but I'll take our word for it.

1232
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,800
So once again, it's other things
funding the news business,

1233
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:57,570
which, which is just fine. But
the what is, and so the question

1234
01:20:57,570 --> 01:21:00,120
was, I should have clipped it
actually, because it was very

1235
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:03,600
subtle, like, so what are you
going to do with podcast? Well,

1236
01:21:03,630 --> 01:21:08,550
we'll continue to innovate with
audio. Okay, that's code for

1237
01:21:08,940 --> 01:21:13,560
nothing. So that the daily is a
top podcast. And she was very

1238
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:18,390
clear, she says, the advertising
market for podcasts collapsed.

1239
01:21:19,290 --> 01:21:25,080
Now, is it a broader issue? In
advertising? Sure. I mean, that

1240
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:28,860
it's digital advertising in
general. I mean, I've only

1241
01:21:28,860 --> 01:21:33,300
recently learned that the true
CPM you get so number of

1242
01:21:33,300 --> 01:21:36,870
dollars, you get per 1000 People
who have watched the video on

1243
01:21:36,870 --> 01:21:40,650
YouTube, and that has to be of a
certain amount of time, because

1244
01:21:40,650 --> 01:21:43,830
the view is also very
subjective, is really down about

1245
01:21:43,830 --> 01:21:47,430
a buck and a half. You know,
it's three, it's $3, that they

1246
01:21:47,430 --> 01:21:51,060
may sell it to the to the
advertise it's, it's, it's, it's

1247
01:21:51,060 --> 01:21:55,710
not very high. So and that's
because there's no artificial

1248
01:21:56,250 --> 01:21:59,370
lack of supply, you know, how
many YouTube videos do you want

1249
01:21:59,370 --> 01:22:05,370
to advertise on? And, and I
truly believe that the party's

1250
01:22:05,370 --> 01:22:09,540
over, the music has stopped, we
all better sit down on a chair

1251
01:22:09,540 --> 01:22:13,470
really quickly. Because you
can't, advertisers are not

1252
01:22:13,500 --> 01:22:19,020
stupid. And when I hear the CEO
of a cast, who clearly is kind

1253
01:22:19,020 --> 01:22:24,120
of thick minded, say, Well, you
know, obviously, our our numbers

1254
01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:27,480
are down because Apple changed
the way they download stuff in

1255
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:30,870
the background. It's like, wow,
how could you How can you say

1256
01:22:30,870 --> 01:22:35,820
this stuff? So advertisers are
not dumb. And they're very me to

1257
01:22:35,820 --> 01:22:40,290
wish, particularly the media
buyer. So, hey, podcasting is

1258
01:22:40,290 --> 01:22:44,610
not hot anymore. Okay. We're
advertising on Tiktok. Yeah,

1259
01:22:44,610 --> 01:22:48,660
we're out. We're out. We're out.
So it's over. And the biggest

1260
01:22:48,660 --> 01:22:53,160
problem is, the podcast
industrial complex cannot prove

1261
01:22:53,550 --> 01:22:59,640
listeners, they just can't,
hence the ad nauseam. Talk about

1262
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,930
YouTube, because you can go to
YouTube and you can get, you

1263
01:23:03,930 --> 01:23:07,440
know, put your stuff on YouTube
and you'll get numbers but then

1264
01:23:07,440 --> 01:23:11,310
you'll be up to YouTube's
advertising machine. The it's

1265
01:23:11,310 --> 01:23:17,520
over and and more and more over.
And God bless. Mitch, I think

1266
01:23:17,910 --> 01:23:22,050
the ipv6 is really happening.
You're not going to be able to

1267
01:23:22,050 --> 01:23:24,720
track IP addresses anymore. It's
just over

1268
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:29,160
Dave Jones: the the I got a
clip, I grabbed a clip from

1269
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:31,620
there's a couple of things in
that show that that I thought

1270
01:23:31,620 --> 01:23:34,080
were interesting. One was the I
mean, we kind of we already knew

1271
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:38,040
this, really. But it was, I
don't know, the way they put it

1272
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:43,110
was pretty stark. I mean,
basically, in 2018, the podcast

1273
01:23:43,110 --> 01:23:47,550
industry was already collapsing.
correctly. gimlet was starting

1274
01:23:47,550 --> 01:23:48,330
to they'd never made

1275
01:23:48,330 --> 01:23:52,140
Adam Curry: money, you never
made money. It was a Hail Mary

1276
01:23:52,140 --> 01:23:53,760
leading bleeding

1277
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:56,280
Dave Jones: to death. And they
were about to go under. And they

1278
01:23:56,280 --> 01:24:00,750
got the Spotify, Hail Mary. Like
they just caught lightning in a

1279
01:24:00,750 --> 01:24:06,060
bottle. People made money. I
mean, it was like, it was almost

1280
01:24:06,060 --> 01:24:10,140
like, you know, 2019 people. A
lot of people don't realize that

1281
01:24:10,140 --> 01:24:15,300
2019 was a recession. We were in
an economic recession in 2019.

1282
01:24:15,750 --> 01:24:21,930
Then COVID happened. Screwed out
or you coincidence. We printed

1283
01:24:21,930 --> 01:24:25,980
trillions of dollars. Yeah. And
then had this boom. And now what

1284
01:24:25,980 --> 01:24:29,460
we're doing is we're reverting
after the party's over reverting

1285
01:24:29,460 --> 01:24:32,370
to the mean. Yes, going back to
recession, which is where we

1286
01:24:32,370 --> 01:24:36,840
would have been in 2019. And
that is the same thing with with

1287
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:39,810
podcasting. You had this
artificial expansion by this

1288
01:24:40,860 --> 01:24:44,160
essentially money printer coming
into the market. Yeah, and

1289
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,590
screwed everything up for a few
years and now we're going back

1290
01:24:46,590 --> 01:24:50,700
to what it was before. And I
think the like so but I got a

1291
01:24:50,700 --> 01:24:55,890
clip where they he describes the
problem with the advertising

1292
01:24:55,890 --> 01:25:00,690
problem in tied to podcasting he
describes it exactly why USC was

1293
01:25:00,690 --> 01:25:04,860
jazz to public radio stations
had long been limited to just

1294
01:25:04,860 --> 01:25:09,030
three ways of bringing in the
dough. Sponsorship, what we call

1295
01:25:09,030 --> 01:25:13,500
radio ads, membership donations
from listeners and grants from

1296
01:25:13,500 --> 01:25:16,920
foundations. WNYC is a little
different. We also have a

1297
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,280
distribution arm and we collect
syndication fees for nationally

1298
01:25:20,280 --> 01:25:25,530
distributed shows like Oh, TM.
Now WNYC could sell podcast ads

1299
01:25:25,530 --> 01:25:28,410
without having to jostle for a
slot on the crowded radio

1300
01:25:28,410 --> 01:25:32,940
schedule. Yes, that's it. And
that's your that's your

1301
01:25:32,940 --> 01:25:34,830
unlimited inventory problem.

1302
01:25:34,860 --> 01:25:38,490
Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah. Well,
how much storage can add space?

1303
01:25:38,490 --> 01:25:41,010
How much? How much podcasts Do
you want to buy?

1304
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:45,450
Dave Jones: You can buy when,
when these, when the ad space is

1305
01:25:45,450 --> 01:25:50,700
unlimited, there's no floor to
the CPM. There's no floor to the

1306
01:25:50,700 --> 01:25:51,810
rate, it can just go.

1307
01:25:53,130 --> 01:25:56,760
Adam Curry: It's a race to the
bottom. And, again, lack of

1308
01:25:56,760 --> 01:26:01,470
trust in the metrics, which is
in the marketplace, and I'll

1309
01:26:01,470 --> 01:26:06,120
take some credit for that. Lack
of trust for the metrics, always

1310
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:10,980
ruin stuff. Because there is no
trust in the metrics. There just

1311
01:26:10,980 --> 01:26:15,030
isn't, you know, the attribution
part is complicated. And even

1312
01:26:15,030 --> 01:26:20,550
Spotify who know stuff, they
know, again, money's fungible.

1313
01:26:20,550 --> 01:26:24,600
So you're looking at AI hearts
like, oh, yeah, podcasting is

1314
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:28,920
doing this for us. Well, you
know, if you do a buy on, on I

1315
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:32,190
Heart across radio stations and
podcasts, it's just up to their

1316
01:26:32,190 --> 01:26:36,270
internal mechanism as to what
they attribute to the podcast

1317
01:26:36,270 --> 01:26:40,020
side of the equation. You know,
then that's, that's been going

1318
01:26:40,020 --> 01:26:43,980
on for a long time. And a lot of
those deals were also by, you

1319
01:26:43,980 --> 01:26:48,330
know, a sponsorship on the radio
and an ad on the podcast. But

1320
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:53,970
the CEO was honest, she says,
you know, does the market just

1321
01:26:53,970 --> 01:27:00,570
collapse collapsed. Now, what I
truly still believe in is

1322
01:27:01,350 --> 01:27:05,220
advertisers who are a part of a
program again, I always use

1323
01:27:05,220 --> 01:27:09,510
Linux, the Linux today, guys,
was Jupiter broadcasting. I

1324
01:27:09,510 --> 01:27:13,830
enjoy listening to them talk
about products, and say, oh, you

1325
01:27:13,830 --> 01:27:16,740
know, here, these guys are
sponsoring us. We use them

1326
01:27:16,740 --> 01:27:20,850
whether it's true or not, they
usually do. And they talk about

1327
01:27:20,850 --> 01:27:23,670
how they integrate that gets a
little tough when, you know,

1328
01:27:23,700 --> 01:27:28,800
Linode pulls out, this is always
the danger of having sponsors.

1329
01:27:29,370 --> 01:27:33,360
But like bridesmaids magazine,
you know, that you don't buy it

1330
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:36,870
really for the articles. You
know, you buy it to find your

1331
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:40,950
wedding band, you buy it to find
your, your wedding venue, you

1332
01:27:40,950 --> 01:27:45,360
buy it, you know, for ideas
about your wedding. You know,

1333
01:27:45,390 --> 01:27:50,130
that is that works great. And
that's valid. And there's all

1334
01:27:50,130 --> 01:27:53,730
kinds of ways you can you can
show an advertiser that works.

1335
01:27:53,730 --> 01:27:57,540
It's really per inquiry. That
still works. It still does, but

1336
01:27:57,540 --> 01:28:01,980
this programmatic ads ruined
everything that ruins it all.

1337
01:28:02,190 --> 01:28:05,640
Because now it's just oh, you
know, buy some remnant inventory

1338
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:10,350
for 50 cents CPM. bed was
looking at her. And now and the

1339
01:28:10,350 --> 01:28:13,650
next thing you're hearing is I'm
seeing these articles pop up.

1340
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:16,770
Well, you know, this whole brand
safety thing was a little

1341
01:28:16,770 --> 01:28:20,220
overblown. We went a little bit
too far, because, you know, the

1342
01:28:20,220 --> 01:28:22,650
people who listen to those
podcasts, you're still reaching

1343
01:28:22,650 --> 01:28:26,130
real people who buy stuff, you
know, just because they're Nazis

1344
01:28:26,130 --> 01:28:27,810
doesn't mean that they don't buy
stuff.

1345
01:28:28,380 --> 01:28:30,180
Dave Jones: But this night Nazis
wipe their butts.

1346
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:35,490
Adam Curry: But the problem is,
it's no it's not about that. We

1347
01:28:35,490 --> 01:28:44,550
just saw this. This week with
Elon Musk, where it's maybe IBM

1348
01:28:44,550 --> 01:28:50,700
didn't wake up and go, Oh, the
horrors. Oh, my. There's an ad

1349
01:28:50,700 --> 01:28:54,780
for IBM near to a post about you
know, someone who hates Jews.

1350
01:28:54,780 --> 01:28:59,100
No, that's not what happened.
Media Matters, trolls, Twitter

1351
01:28:59,100 --> 01:29:03,600
all day long, looking for
looking for, you know, some mess

1352
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:07,830
up exactly like this. And then
they immediately start posting

1353
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:12,840
and start shaming IBM. Who, by
the way, you know, it was IBM,

1354
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:16,440
who created and maintained the
machines that counted the Jews

1355
01:29:16,440 --> 01:29:20,970
in World War Two with the punch
cards. I'm just saying, there's

1356
01:29:20,970 --> 01:29:24,630
a book about it. Yes. JC these
buddy wrote the book about it.

1357
01:29:24,630 --> 01:29:29,130
See, this is a fascinating book.
But that's that's the problem.

1358
01:29:29,130 --> 01:29:31,920
That is the culture that has
been created. So forget about

1359
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:36,930
it, you know, the genies out of
the bottle, but unless you're

1360
01:29:36,930 --> 01:29:41,010
really strong as a brand and
which comes down to the CEO,

1361
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:44,850
you're not gonna do it. I think
the Bud Light the lesson is

1362
01:29:44,850 --> 01:29:48,630
another reason why Oh, we got to
be very careful because even a

1363
01:29:48,630 --> 01:29:52,620
brand like Bud Light, the number
one beer brands in America can

1364
01:29:52,620 --> 01:29:53,490
be destroyed.

1365
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:56,940
Dave Jones: And when has been
then what it's been yes and what

1366
01:29:56,940 --> 01:29:57,870
is the VP

1367
01:29:57,870 --> 01:30:01,710
Adam Curry: of Marketing and now
a second to executive has been,

1368
01:30:02,730 --> 01:30:06,000
has been has left to pursue
other interests outside the

1369
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:10,230
company. So now it's people
themselves, no one's going to

1370
01:30:10,230 --> 01:30:15,810
take that risk. It's we blew it
all up. And I really truly think

1371
01:30:15,810 --> 01:30:23,700
that algos and ad insertions and
programmatic ads. That was the

1372
01:30:23,700 --> 01:30:26,820
find that was the final. That
was the death knell that was the

1373
01:30:26,850 --> 01:30:31,530
that was the final cut. That
just ruined it. I don't think

1374
01:30:31,530 --> 01:30:33,810
they can come back from it. And
why should it really

1375
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:37,200
Dave Jones: well, that there's
nothing else to do though? I

1376
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:40,890
mean, like, there's no there's
nothing that it's built. Yeah,

1377
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:43,890
it's built now. And so now the
race to the bottom begins. Yeah,

1378
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:44,520
well, it's

1379
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:45,360
Adam Curry: well underway.

1380
01:30:45,420 --> 01:30:46,830
Dave Jones: It's well, I'm here.
There's no There's no more

1381
01:30:46,830 --> 01:30:49,530
innovation. That's good. So now
it's just this is all we're just

1382
01:30:49,530 --> 01:30:50,520
gonna roll downhill.

1383
01:30:51,900 --> 01:30:54,090
Adam Curry: Yeah, it's become
banner ads.

1384
01:30:55,020 --> 01:31:00,000
Dave Jones: We're, we have a
problem here because I did not,

1385
01:31:00,660 --> 01:31:07,440
uh, fired off the the boosts to
the boost to email, and I didn't

1386
01:31:07,440 --> 01:31:08,610
get any of the email. This was

1387
01:31:08,610 --> 01:31:11,910
Adam Curry: interesting. You say
this, because I didn't even get

1388
01:31:12,630 --> 01:31:16,530
our regular morning emails
either. Now that think about it.

1389
01:31:17,070 --> 01:31:17,190
I

1390
01:31:17,190 --> 01:31:19,170
Dave Jones: didn't either. I
think there's an email issue.

1391
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,950
Clearly there is that I'm gonna
have to check Mailgun and make

1392
01:31:22,950 --> 01:31:27,570
sure, I think so. I can't read
boosts because Well,

1393
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:33,120
Adam Curry: luckily, luckily,
what I can do, if you'll indulge

1394
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:37,980
me, I was indulge, I can do a
quick export of my helipad. And

1395
01:31:37,980 --> 01:31:41,610
we can get pretty close. Okay,
all right. Hold on a second. Let

1396
01:31:41,610 --> 01:31:47,040
me do this. I love heli pad. I
can't wait to reply to people in

1397
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:50,880
heli pad. That will be the next
best thing ever.

1398
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:52,350
Dave Jones: They do the Lord's
work.

1399
01:31:52,380 --> 01:31:54,990
Adam Curry: I know he is I know
he is. There's something else I

1400
01:31:54,990 --> 01:31:58,560
wanted and how LeapPad I can't
remember what it was. But it's

1401
01:31:58,590 --> 01:32:03,120
it's so good. Okay, let's see,
um, books. So the way you do

1402
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:05,760
this if you're using helipad on
your podcast, because this did

1403
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:10,530
come up on podcasts index dot
social the other day the you and

1404
01:32:10,530 --> 01:32:13,710
I learned this from Dave because
I'm by no means am I an Excel

1405
01:32:13,710 --> 01:32:20,580
guy. So you want to open Excel
first. Then you click a blank

1406
01:32:20,580 --> 01:32:24,810
workbook. It's all these great
names so you hit data. And then

1407
01:32:24,810 --> 01:32:31,560
from data you go to import data
from text or CSV file. Because

1408
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,990
the reason you want to do this
is because then you get a pivot

1409
01:32:33,990 --> 01:32:39,780
table. Pivot Tables pivot when
our pivot tables are badass I

1410
01:32:39,780 --> 01:32:43,500
love some pivot table. So hold
on I'm just doing it now. So I'm

1411
01:32:43,500 --> 01:32:48,090
going to select this exported
boost file from the last week

1412
01:32:48,090 --> 01:32:50,760
and a half so I know I'll have
our data you can hear I'm

1413
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:57,450
covering for the covering for
your stream slowness. For some

1414
01:32:57,450 --> 01:33:00,990
reason being Excel it then it
tells me it's connecting to data

1415
01:33:00,990 --> 01:33:02,490
source, it's a file Come

1416
01:33:02,490 --> 01:33:05,730
Dave Jones: on, it's a data
source. Just doing

1417
01:33:05,730 --> 01:33:09,270
Adam Curry: like an ODBC
connection or something in my

1418
01:33:09,690 --> 01:33:10,500
file system

1419
01:33:10,500 --> 01:33:13,110
Dave Jones: or whatever very
large it is many boosts

1420
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:17,010
Adam Curry: well it contains all
my boosts so I have to know

1421
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:21,690
that's big I now have to select
podcasting 2.0 I

1422
01:33:21,780 --> 01:33:24,240
Dave Jones: think there are
parameters where you can filter

1423
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:25,440
that yeah,

1424
01:33:25,470 --> 01:33:29,190
Adam Curry: no, of course I
can't and then I need to check

1425
01:33:29,190 --> 01:33:33,540
to make sure that the app so I
want to remove IPF podcasting.

1426
01:33:34,050 --> 01:33:37,710
Okay, boom. All right. Here we
have the table. Yes. From the

1427
01:33:37,710 --> 01:33:40,140
pivot table. And now I go back
to

1428
01:33:42,810 --> 01:33:45,330
Dave Jones: what do you love?
This is like a webinar on how to

1429
01:33:45,330 --> 01:33:45,990
use Excel

1430
01:33:46,020 --> 01:33:49,500
Adam Curry: if I flipped on the
camera Format Cells, okay, so so

1431
01:33:49,500 --> 01:33:53,040
I can see the message, boom, tax
Wrap Text. I've done this so

1432
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:57,180
many times. Okay, now I scroll
down. And all I need to look for

1433
01:33:57,180 --> 01:33:59,880
is comics for Blogger and I
found him because he is a

1434
01:33:59,880 --> 01:34:01,170
delimiter and here we go.

1435
01:34:03,030 --> 01:34:05,040
Dave Jones: Oh, there's magic.
Bam. Yes,

1436
01:34:05,070 --> 01:34:10,620
Adam Curry: it's super magic.
Okay. We have to we do e

1437
01:34:10,620 --> 01:34:15,600
podcasts are 10,000 SATs because
we are on day 10 of national

1438
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:18,810
podcast post month. Okay, we did
that. We did that. And then we

1439
01:34:18,810 --> 01:34:24,870
had here's chyron that was also
okay. The 11th I think almost

1440
01:34:24,870 --> 01:34:28,080
second was when was the last
show the 10th right so the 11th

1441
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:32,850
Here we go. Now was Pyron the
bird was around

1442
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:36,390
Dave Jones: the flow is all
messed up because I usually

1443
01:34:36,390 --> 01:34:38,670
we're so used to doing this in a
batter it

1444
01:34:38,670 --> 01:34:44,490
Adam Curry: is it is okay. Sir
Sean riser, Kevin Bay. Okay. All

1445
01:34:44,490 --> 01:34:46,800
right. I think this is good. I
think I think we're on a path if

1446
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:51,210
50,000 SATs I'm listening. This
is from Kevin Bay. I'm listening

1447
01:34:51,210 --> 01:34:54,060
to the person Good talk. I'm
wondering what would stop

1448
01:34:54,060 --> 01:34:57,090
someone from using someone
else's good say I put Adams good

1449
01:34:57,090 --> 01:35:00,330
as a person in my podcast, but
he has nothing to do With my

1450
01:35:00,330 --> 01:35:03,570
show, wouldn't I be able to
hijack his persona to drive

1451
01:35:03,570 --> 01:35:06,270
people to my podcast? He
wouldn't be able to stop me.

1452
01:35:07,170 --> 01:35:10,590
Yep, yes, you could. You could,
but you can never really

1453
01:35:10,590 --> 01:35:13,530
replicate me brother. No one's
gonna fall for that was gonna

1454
01:35:13,530 --> 01:35:14,700
fall for your tricks.

1455
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:17,640
Dave Jones: You can also create
fake websites that do things.

1456
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:19,290
Yes, true. So of course

1457
01:35:19,290 --> 01:35:23,490
Adam Curry: that's possible.
3333 from Sir truck driver. No

1458
01:35:23,490 --> 01:35:27,360
notes. We thank you for that
though. We have 1111 from Joel

1459
01:35:27,360 --> 01:35:31,080
who no note chyron with a row of
ducks, a beautiful rendition of

1460
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:36,450
criss crossed there at the end.
We were singing sailing, yes.

1461
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:42,510
Aside from their cowboy music,
also known for their 1992 Smash

1462
01:35:42,510 --> 01:35:46,590
Hit jump, Adam is definitely the
daddy Mac. So that would make

1463
01:35:46,590 --> 01:35:50,910
Dave the mack daddy okay, yes,
perfect. It's on our business

1464
01:35:50,910 --> 01:35:55,080
cards, Jean being 2222, the
central database of person tag

1465
01:35:55,080 --> 01:35:59,040
registrations could easily be a
Git repo that contains the

1466
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:02,280
results of each registration and
stores the GUID profile picture

1467
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:05,010
and any other relevant
information if that Git repo was

1468
01:36:05,010 --> 01:36:09,360
public, anyone could clone it,
and present it as desired. Yep.

1469
01:36:09,930 --> 01:36:12,000
Well, yeah, but that's Yeah, but
then you're centralized and you

1470
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:15,300
just basically centralizing it
on a GitHub Right? Or a Git

1471
01:36:15,300 --> 01:36:15,840
repo.

1472
01:36:16,620 --> 01:36:22,650
Dave Jones: Yes, it is. It's, I
mean, it's centralized in the

1473
01:36:22,650 --> 01:36:26,880
sense that it exists one but I
mean, you can fork it a million

1474
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:29,340
times into whatever. But

1475
01:36:29,340 --> 01:36:32,250
Adam Curry: the whole idea the
whole idea is to decentralize

1476
01:36:32,250 --> 01:36:36,900
this at the same time that we do
this activity pub RSS mindmeld

1477
01:36:37,980 --> 01:36:41,340
Dave Jones: Yeah. lots of moving
parts, like slowly falling

1478
01:36:41,340 --> 01:36:42,240
together. Yes.

1479
01:36:42,990 --> 01:36:46,080
Adam Curry: We got Mike Dell
10,000 SATs My head hurts, but I

1480
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:50,550
think I understand mine to Mike
gene Bing again with elite boost

1481
01:36:50,550 --> 01:36:53,940
1337 can't help but wonder how
we convince all traditional

1482
01:36:53,940 --> 01:36:56,730
podcast hosts to embrace
activitypub Hopefully that will

1483
01:36:56,730 --> 01:37:00,030
be easier than I think it will
be. Well, I don't know. I mean,

1484
01:37:00,210 --> 01:37:04,050
we convinced a lot of hosts to
add the namespace.

1485
01:37:05,670 --> 01:37:07,140
Dave Jones: There's a lot of
there's a lot of people in

1486
01:37:07,140 --> 01:37:10,950
activity insurance I mean, there
really is and

1487
01:37:10,950 --> 01:37:13,080
Adam Curry: then gene being
again with elite boost another

1488
01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:17,370
piece of prior art you should
look at is funk whale dot audio.

1489
01:37:18,510 --> 01:37:22,290
Dot audio. They do music and
activity pub plus RSS.

1490
01:37:23,220 --> 01:37:25,440
Dave Jones: Oh, I think you have
heard

1491
01:37:25,440 --> 01:37:28,290
Adam Curry: of it. Funky so they
do activity? Well, let's take a

1492
01:37:28,290 --> 01:37:30,780
look at that. That's
interesting. They are anti

1493
01:37:30,780 --> 01:37:35,430
Bitcoin. Okay, so they don't
want to adopt the namespace.

1494
01:37:35,460 --> 01:37:39,000
Wow, they do not want us now.
But the underlying tech seems

1495
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:43,380
very relevant to this episode.
Jay Moon 3333 with the boost

1496
01:37:44,490 --> 01:37:47,640
just listen and 1776 Freedom
boost. Thank you for all you do

1497
01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:50,580
shout out the fountain. Love the
music stuff going on there. I'm

1498
01:37:50,580 --> 01:37:53,550
actually loving having my
podcasts and music in the same

1499
01:37:53,550 --> 01:37:57,030
app. Shout out also to phantom
power music, our loving being

1500
01:37:57,030 --> 01:38:00,090
able to find a track that he
plays in the References tab and

1501
01:38:00,090 --> 01:38:03,030
go at it to my library without
switching apps. That's the dream

1502
01:38:03,030 --> 01:38:07,830
brother right there. Now I got a
call from a reporter from

1503
01:38:07,830 --> 01:38:12,720
Fortune Magazine. And he wanted
to talk about open source value

1504
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:18,060
for value and mastodon. And they
said and he's a Bitcoin right

1505
01:38:18,060 --> 01:38:20,820
off the bat, you know, Bitcoin.
I said, Well, do you know about

1506
01:38:20,820 --> 01:38:23,610
value for value in the podcast
as well? I know about fountain.

1507
01:38:24,180 --> 01:38:27,000
Two. Oh, brother. Do you have a
couple minutes? Let me sit down

1508
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,540
and tell you sort of story. And
after I told them you know how

1509
01:38:30,540 --> 01:38:34,830
everything comes in he goes wow,
that's awesome. Said Yes. Yes.

1510
01:38:34,860 --> 01:38:37,860
Fortune Magazine. Boy. Go read
some stuff it

1511
01:38:37,860 --> 01:38:40,200
Dave Jones: he'll go read then
go right. Yeah, please.

1512
01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:44,670
Adam Curry: Looks like comic
strip blogger. Even though he's

1513
01:38:44,670 --> 01:38:47,010
the delimiter he's not the
dilemma because I'm going to do

1514
01:38:47,010 --> 01:38:51,450
the live boosts after this. Adam
and Dave, and this is 32,015.

1515
01:38:52,500 --> 01:38:55,920
I'd like to extend an invitation
to your audience. So listen to

1516
01:38:56,070 --> 01:39:00,690
the just to good old boys
podcast. You can find it at www

1517
01:39:00,690 --> 01:39:04,200
dot just two good old boys.com.
The show is hosted by two

1518
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:07,950
Texans. A dude named Ben and
Jean, who is an in person friend

1519
01:39:07,950 --> 01:39:13,380
of Adam. In person, friend. What
does that even mean? Yes, he's

1520
01:39:13,380 --> 01:39:16,890
been in my house. This podcast
stands out due to the host vast

1521
01:39:16,890 --> 01:39:20,250
experience in the corporate
world and business travel yo

1522
01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:26,130
CSB. By the way, Sergio been
instrumental in developing the

1523
01:39:26,130 --> 01:39:29,550
value for value model. I might
add. He helped a lot and really

1524
01:39:29,550 --> 01:39:34,020
did Yes, he did. Okay. He he
helped with the gamification.

1525
01:39:36,060 --> 01:39:39,510
Yeah, he came up with some
really good ideas. I wonder back

1526
01:39:39,510 --> 01:39:41,670
in the old days when I still
didn't in my first house and the

1527
01:39:41,670 --> 01:39:42,750
second house in Austin

1528
01:39:43,050 --> 01:39:46,110
Dave Jones: Sergej and the
Sheriff of Sheriff Texas is

1529
01:39:46,110 --> 01:39:46,410
telling

1530
01:39:46,410 --> 01:39:49,770
Adam Curry: record 4444 Getting
a pre show. Thank you boostin

1531
01:39:49,770 --> 01:39:52,320
here before heading out of town
again for a gig in Wisconsin

1532
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:55,230
this weekend. Looking forward to
spreading the V for V model

1533
01:39:55,230 --> 01:39:58,110
capabilities and information to
any other musicians there during

1534
01:39:58,110 --> 01:40:02,460
dinner Saturday night. The
signal Keep spreading us right?

1535
01:40:02,670 --> 01:40:08,340
We all have to do nice satchel
of Richard's 11,111 from

1536
01:40:08,340 --> 01:40:11,760
blueberry for three to count it
down that's how many songs we've

1537
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:15,420
gotten to upload with Thunder
Road dot media to the index if

1538
01:40:15,420 --> 01:40:18,840
you got music and want someone
to host it hit me up. I will

1539
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:22,260
also set intentions to go back
on tour as the split kit tech

1540
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:28,110
and Broadway shows are so
yesterday. Live V for V

1541
01:40:28,110 --> 01:40:32,070
conference will be pure magic.
So yeah, so Thunder Road media.

1542
01:40:32,610 --> 01:40:37,680
What Buber is doing is he'll
help you he'll set you up. Hill

1543
01:40:38,040 --> 01:40:43,860
host your music and your feed.
And he takes I think a 3% split

1544
01:40:44,820 --> 01:40:45,600
off of everything.

1545
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:46,770
Dave Jones: That seems
reasonable. I

1546
01:40:46,770 --> 01:40:49,440
Adam Curry: love this. This this
is the economy I'm talking

1547
01:40:49,440 --> 01:40:54,450
about. No. And then people say
yeah, no one uses Bitcoin. Oh

1548
01:40:54,450 --> 01:40:59,820
goodness. See, this, we have an
ecosystem of proof dripping with

1549
01:40:59,820 --> 01:41:05,100
proof. Chat F 3333. We just need
to put STR on the end of

1550
01:41:05,100 --> 01:41:09,930
everything we built. Oh, now
introducing ln gangster Okay.

1551
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:15,540
Podcasts says I'm just gonna be
Adam curry stir, and I'll just

1552
01:41:15,810 --> 01:41:22,800
change everything. 10,000 SATs
from Dobie Das. RSS blue.com

1553
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:26,370
There have been instances of RSS
blue music show DJs not being

1554
01:41:26,370 --> 01:41:29,790
able to reference wavelength
tracks because they weren't on

1555
01:41:29,790 --> 01:41:34,170
podcast index. So now, when
someone pays a wavelength URL

1556
01:41:34,170 --> 01:41:37,770
that doesn't have an entry in
the podcast index, RSS blue will

1557
01:41:37,770 --> 01:41:40,980
send out a pod ping with that
wavelength Feed URL.

1558
01:41:41,340 --> 01:41:42,180
Dave Jones: Thank you, brother.

1559
01:41:42,210 --> 01:41:44,370
Adam Curry: Beautiful. What a
beautiful hack.

1560
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:45,630
Dave Jones: Interrupt.
Interrupt.

1561
01:41:45,660 --> 01:41:48,630
Adam Curry: Yes, it's one way
but we're interrupting where the

1562
01:41:48,630 --> 01:41:51,600
good guy hack I call it interim.
Yeah, we're the good guys. were

1563
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:55,890
the good guys. There's those
210 1000 SATs from Sam Sam Sam

1564
01:41:55,890 --> 01:41:59,100
Sethi we read earlier. Thank
you, Sam. Appreciate it. Go

1565
01:41:59,100 --> 01:42:05,130
check them out at pod
fans.fm 15,500 from see Brooklyn

1566
01:42:05,130 --> 01:42:08,190
112 Thank you for all your work
and the vocabulary lesson. Yes,

1567
01:42:08,190 --> 01:42:11,460
I learned all kinds of things
like cyclomatic complexity.

1568
01:42:11,820 --> 01:42:16,950
Yikes. Salty Crayon 3333. How do
you board room looking forward

1569
01:42:16,950 --> 01:42:20,490
to hopefully talking to other V
four v music podcasters tomorrow

1570
01:42:20,700 --> 01:42:23,610
love this way of playing
independent artists and seeing

1571
01:42:23,610 --> 01:42:26,520
the value go back to them. See
you there tomorrow. Go

1572
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:27,480
podcasting.

1573
01:42:27,780 --> 01:42:28,860
Dave Jones: Go podcast now.
Where's

1574
01:42:28,860 --> 01:42:37,050
Adam Curry: he going to be?
Let's OYSTEIN bariga OYSTEIN I

1575
01:42:37,050 --> 01:42:39,750
love that the Oh with a slash
through it comes through on my

1576
01:42:39,750 --> 01:42:40,500
spreadsheet.

1577
01:42:43,980 --> 01:42:45,960
Dave Jones: It's not always easy
Dutch, right. He's Dutch.

1578
01:42:46,410 --> 01:42:52,290
Adam Curry: I think no, I think
he's Norwegian. Scandinavian

1579
01:42:52,290 --> 01:42:54,450
country I believe. Yeah, that's

1580
01:42:55,770 --> 01:42:57,150
Dave Jones: that's not a Dutch
name. And

1581
01:42:57,150 --> 01:43:01,920
Adam Curry: he does the mutton
Mead music podcast one a one a

1582
01:43:01,920 --> 01:43:06,690
one. Okay. And he just says
educate me. Daddy. Educated.

1583
01:43:08,910 --> 01:43:12,990
Assaults crayon back with a
short row of ducks. 2222 Did I

1584
01:43:12,990 --> 01:43:16,410
hear hot namespace is Dave
breaking out the red light next

1585
01:43:16,410 --> 01:43:21,660
week for a late board meeting?
Bow. Bow. Wow. Yeah, you better

1586
01:43:21,660 --> 01:43:25,140
believe it and Dred Scott, we'll
figure it out. Dred Scott winds

1587
01:43:25,140 --> 01:43:28,530
up the whole list here with
45678 Dred Scott, thank you so

1588
01:43:28,530 --> 01:43:31,110
much, brother. He says just
boosting for the boost boosts

1589
01:43:31,530 --> 01:43:33,960
and because that's what that's
what dribs got does. Let me

1590
01:43:33,960 --> 01:43:36,480
check that something else didn't
come in after the fact now that

1591
01:43:36,480 --> 01:43:39,750
we've gotten through every
single one of them. heli pad

1592
01:43:39,750 --> 01:43:42,030
rocks, it rocks.

1593
01:43:43,440 --> 01:43:46,680
Dave Jones: I feel neutered just
was sitting back watching you do

1594
01:43:46,710 --> 01:43:48,450
do that in my job. I'm like,

1595
01:43:48,930 --> 01:43:50,610
Adam Curry: can you do the paper
towels? You can do the paper

1596
01:43:50,610 --> 01:43:52,440
towels. I can do paper towels.
Yeah, once Yeah.

1597
01:43:53,370 --> 01:43:57,390
Dave Jones: We got we got a new
subscriber $5.50 a month from

1598
01:43:57,390 --> 01:44:00,090
Michael Hall. Thank you,
Michael. Yeah, Michael says

1599
01:44:00,090 --> 01:44:02,220
beginning monthly support. Thank
you for your service.

1600
01:44:02,250 --> 01:44:03,270
Adam Curry: Thank you, Michael.

1601
01:44:03,330 --> 01:44:06,630
Dave Jones: We work hard. And
then we got some monthlies. We

1602
01:44:06,630 --> 01:44:12,960
got Terry Keller $5 Chris cow
and $5 Paul Saltzman $22.22

1603
01:44:12,990 --> 01:44:18,450
Derek J. Vickery. Great name. I
love it every time $21 you're on

1604
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:24,000
you're on Rosenstein $1, Damon
Castle, Jack $15 and Jeremy

1605
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:25,620
gerdts $5.

1606
01:44:25,890 --> 01:44:28,470
Adam Curry: Thank you all very
much. This is a value for value

1607
01:44:28,470 --> 01:44:32,220
proposition. If you don't know
what that means. Forbes magazine

1608
01:44:32,220 --> 01:44:38,250
will explain it to you soon, or
go to value for value dot info.

1609
01:44:38,250 --> 01:44:41,550
That's a pretty good overview of
of how it works in the history

1610
01:44:41,550 --> 01:44:44,790
of it. But really, the idea is,
if you like the project, if you

1611
01:44:44,790 --> 01:44:48,000
like this podcast, if you want
it all to continue, then you can

1612
01:44:48,030 --> 01:44:51,870
send value back to us in three
ways time, talent or treasure.

1613
01:44:51,960 --> 01:44:55,620
Most people will hand back time
and talent in big ways. And a

1614
01:44:55,620 --> 01:44:58,230
lot of them also provide
treasure which is so incredibly

1615
01:44:58,230 --> 01:45:01,410
appreciated. You can go to
podcast index Start org. Go down

1616
01:45:01,410 --> 01:45:03,930
to the bottom you'll see two red
donate buttons, one for your

1617
01:45:03,930 --> 01:45:08,610
Fiat Pay Pal Fiat fun coupons.
The other one is taken as a

1618
01:45:08,610 --> 01:45:11,340
tally coin in case you just
happen to have a Bitcoin laying

1619
01:45:11,340 --> 01:45:13,980
around. Oh, these guys, they
could use a whole Bitcoin. I'll

1620
01:45:13,980 --> 01:45:16,860
send that to them. I think I'll
do that on chain. We'll accept

1621
01:45:16,860 --> 01:45:17,130
that.

1622
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:18,270
Dave Jones: Please do that.

1623
01:45:18,330 --> 01:45:20,220
Adam Curry: But we'd love for
you to go to new podcast

1624
01:45:20,220 --> 01:45:24,330
apps.com or podcast apps.com.
Grab a modern podcast app,

1625
01:45:24,330 --> 01:45:26,640
you're going to need it
eventually. And remember one of

1626
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:30,240
the big features besides the
fact you can boost us and send

1627
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:33,210
us a booster gram and have it
read in the in the thank you

1628
01:45:33,210 --> 01:45:37,800
segment is that you also get
updated. The app updates within

1629
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:41,130
like 90 seconds of us
publishing. People forget that

1630
01:45:41,130 --> 01:45:45,630
and I still have so many people
say why haven't you uploaded to

1631
01:45:45,630 --> 01:45:50,610
Apple yet? That's not how it
works. Apple is just old

1632
01:45:50,610 --> 01:45:53,820
fashioned. Do you want to
consider something new?

1633
01:45:54,780 --> 01:45:57,900
Dave Jones: Yeah, we're like a
pack. Yeah, like a podcast app

1634
01:45:57,900 --> 01:45:59,460
that actually cares about
efficiency.

1635
01:46:00,930 --> 01:46:02,400
Adam Curry: Before we go, you
want to play song.

1636
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:06,120
Dave Jones: Oh, love the song.
Yeah, song. That would be

1637
01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:07,620
fantastic. I didn't know you're
gonna do that. Yeah,

1638
01:46:07,650 --> 01:46:10,680
Adam Curry: well, I just had one
just in case and this is from

1639
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:14,550
one of those guys. This guy
actually, when we did the

1640
01:46:14,550 --> 01:46:22,140
podsafe music networks, and now
we're talking back 2007 I think

1641
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:25,860
he uploaded a lot of his tracks.
And he's been around for a long

1642
01:46:25,860 --> 01:46:28,710
time. Do you remember Jimmy
Bratcher you may be you may be

1643
01:46:28,710 --> 01:46:32,430
too young to remember Jimmy
Bradsher Bratcher atcha now you

1644
01:46:32,430 --> 01:46:35,430
probably don't remember him. No,
no, no. Well, you're going to

1645
01:46:35,430 --> 01:46:43,890
hear him right now. And there we
go. If you want some bluesy kind

1646
01:46:43,890 --> 01:46:47,850
of down home funky music Jimmy
Bradshaw is your guy.

1647
01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:53,640
Unknown: I went to the doctor
the other day the doc said, Boy

1648
01:46:53,640 --> 01:47:02,640
you got to quit cut out the
cheese and what's the brother

1649
01:47:02,850 --> 01:47:10,830
supposed to do? The I went home
and told my wife. She said baby

1650
01:47:10,860 --> 01:47:18,930
you gonna take his invite? We
came sick in bed. Don't relax.

1651
01:47:19,500 --> 01:47:30,780
Don't be sad. Mom cried No. Mama
Wolfram knows. That ain't gonna

1652
01:47:30,780 --> 01:47:44,700
be in your mouth. Brad was when?
By Mosuo I get tempted and I can

1653
01:47:46,200 --> 01:47:51,930
drive by and searches Popeyes
KFC this guy goes you can go and

1654
01:47:51,930 --> 01:48:02,190
get a piece and sweet be fried
chicken marble fries boyfriend

1655
01:48:04,470 --> 01:48:06,060
today we're gonna be

1656
01:48:15,540 --> 01:48:20,790
your fried chicken is the best
I've ever had and without it it

1657
01:48:20,790 --> 01:48:25,920
just makes me mad so get out the
skillet through some dark lead

1658
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:38,220
in the paint and some gravy.
I'll be happy man Mom Mom mama

1659
01:48:38,220 --> 01:48:46,170
Wolfram no chicken the a goat
would be no fingers because mama

1660
01:48:46,170 --> 01:48:55,530
whoa Fran Oh chick No. No
chicken I said Mama will crack

1661
01:48:55,530 --> 01:49:12,450
nose Don't be finger naked. Mama
Fran no to crime is darkly

1662
01:49:13,980 --> 01:49:14,490
breathing.

1663
01:49:56,760 --> 01:49:58,680
Adam Curry: That's the kind of
stuff we play out here in the

1664
01:49:58,680 --> 01:49:59,490
hill country man

1665
01:50:00,539 --> 01:50:02,759
Dave Jones: Anything that says
gravy and biscuits in it? I'm

1666
01:50:02,759 --> 01:50:03,089
down.

1667
01:50:03,150 --> 01:50:05,190
Adam Curry: I know did you did
you kill your rooster?

1668
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:08,250
Dave Jones: Killing three of
them tomorrow.

1669
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:09,810
Adam Curry: For Thanksgiving.

1670
01:50:10,140 --> 01:50:12,540
Dave Jones: We have a trio in
the backyard that is about to

1671
01:50:12,540 --> 01:50:15,210
drive me insane in the morning,

1672
01:50:15,750 --> 01:50:17,670
Adam Curry: but are you killing
them just because you hate him

1673
01:50:17,670 --> 01:50:20,850
or because you're hungry or is
it a combo? Combo?

1674
01:50:21,210 --> 01:50:23,040
Dave Jones: combo and they work
out they work together

1675
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:23,610
perfectly.

1676
01:50:26,010 --> 01:50:29,130
Adam Curry: Oh, man. All right.
Well, listen, we'll figure out

1677
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,890
what we're going to do. I mean,
maybe because here in America,

1678
01:50:31,890 --> 01:50:35,280
we have Thanksgiving. It's
Thursday. And then you have your

1679
01:50:35,310 --> 01:50:40,170
your family affair on Friday. So
we'll have to see what we do.

1680
01:50:40,590 --> 01:50:45,120
Dave Jones: Let me I'll get the
times from from my wife, their

1681
01:50:45,120 --> 01:50:47,670
boss about what time yeah, for
the balls and what times we're

1682
01:50:47,670 --> 01:50:49,800
doing stuff. And now we'll
figure it out. I'll say well, we

1683
01:50:50,100 --> 01:50:52,740
might be able to still pull off
a show. Okay, well, maybe just a

1684
01:50:52,740 --> 01:50:53,610
little earlier. Something.

1685
01:50:53,700 --> 01:50:56,310
Adam Curry: Oh, brother. Let me
just hold on a second. Let me

1686
01:50:56,310 --> 01:50:59,610
just check because I got my boss
and she goes, Let's synchronize

1687
01:50:59,610 --> 01:51:05,820
calendars. Never that happens.
No, Friday the 24th Now I can do

1688
01:51:05,820 --> 01:51:09,030
it anytime you want. Anytime you
want a Friday. Okay. Maybe we

1689
01:51:09,030 --> 01:51:11,610
just did a little little early.
Okay. All right, brother. Have a

1690
01:51:11,610 --> 01:51:14,310
great weekend. Happy
Thanksgiving. You too, man. All

1691
01:51:14,310 --> 01:51:17,100
right. And chat room. Thank you
very much for joining us here in

1692
01:51:17,100 --> 01:51:22,080
the boardroom for another board
meeting of podcasting. 2.0 We'll

1693
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:23,640
see you next week. Take care
everybody.

1694
01:51:40,860 --> 01:51:45,450
Unknown: You have been listening
to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast

1695
01:51:45,450 --> 01:51:52,380
index.org. For more information,
go podcast. Yeah, it's pretty

1696
01:51:52,380 --> 01:51:52,830
cool.