Adam Curry: On casting 2.0 For April 14 2023, episode 129 We
got Turkish punk. Hello, everybody Friday once again time
for the official board meeting of podcasting. 2.0. Yes, we are
the only podcast boardroom with music and it's hard. Everything
happened at podcast index.org and namespace and of course, all
the shenanigans and says are running at podcast index dot
social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill
Country. And in Alabama, the man who rubs your pub key right into
a chat. Say hello to my friend on the other end, ladies and
gentlemen, Mr. Dave
Dave Jones: Jones didn't know where you're going with that.
Like it
Adam Curry: like it? Well, that's what you've been doing.
You've been like, making chaps and robbing pub keys into it.
And I guess,
Dave Jones: read have done Yes. I was terrified on the way home
that like our guests today we've tried to skip the third time we
tried to schedule a miss finally worked. And I was like, I
thought oh my god, I'm gonna have a flat tire on the way
home.
Adam Curry: I was waiting for anything to happen. So I told
him, I said, you know, this third time, so it's your hope
it's a charm. But
Dave Jones: I mean, for context, we I don't think we've in the
entire history of the show, which was two and a half years
now. Yeah, move it up on three. Yeah, yeah. entire history of
the show. I think we've had one problem with a guest. And it was
within enough time to where we could actually fix it and make
it work now. These guests, we we've had to reschedule twice
for once for like, you know, weather and the other one
because I screwed it up. And
Adam Curry: then the third time because I had to have my my, my
mouth looked at again. Alright, well, we'll get to them
momentarily. First of all, we're lit. This is the new thing all
the kids are doing. Everyone's talking about it being lit what
you want with your podcast. Now, besides pod verse, curio caster,
podcast addict, podcast guru joins the crowd, you got a
successful test yesterday tweeted me that no agenda had
worked. So that's good. And the guru? Yeah. The guru. Exactly.
And I was listening, I think it was, was it podcast weekly
review, talking about? Well, you know, it's really a good thing
doing these live shows. Because, you know, it's really only a not
a lot of people listen. And now it was maybe I didn't understand
the context of what I was doing. But I would say the point is,
again, look at just looking at the at the daily and weekly
statistics, when you have a live show, and it's in and you're
doing it in a certain way, which is very interactive with the
chat that you have going on. I mean, it's a real value
receiving mechanism. It's I mean, we see pod verse outpace
fountain on SAT totals regularly, because shows are
doing it was it was Tonda, lit. Wednesday, he must have been
lit, so
Dave Jones: I boosted in Latvia. So I mean,
Adam Curry: this kind of solidifies the whole idea that
you don't need to be number one, you don't need to be on the
chart. You don't even need to be in Apple, or orange on Spotify.
You know, you just need to have your, your community, your
audience, your group, sitting around participating. And and I
think, I don't think podcasts guru and podcast addict. No,
they don't have value for value built in. Do they're
Dave Jones: not Yeah. It's kind
Adam Curry: of a prerequisite for lit these days. Part of the
fun. I mean, anybody can listen to a show live. And it's great
that these apps are doing it. But I guarantee you listeners
want to join in because boosting is fun.
Dave Jones: is I don't want to blow anybody's cover. There's
some there. Somebody there's another there's another app with
Donald wants to steal their thunder. But there's another app
with the Wii for free come in this this lit enabled.
Adam Curry: Know, the pod stage has secret information.
Dave Jones: I hate doing that crap, but it's very nice. That I
don't want to I don't want to like you know, let the cat out
of the bag before the developers know I'm ready. No, I'm sure
that it's on the way that
Adam Curry: they're giving the exclusive to podcast Business
Journal weekly.
Dave Jones: review, review.
Adam Curry: Podcast Business Journal, isn't it? Isn't that
the new the new newsletter really? revamped?
Dave Jones: It didn't did it? Am I missing something or did is
sounds profitable still part of
Adam Curry: I have no I've never understood the relationship
never I don't relationship No. Okay. Yeah, what are currently
12,000 Oh shoot and just lost the number 12,985 podcasts are
value for value enabled almost 13,000. Then remember to help
people onboard because you can onboard in so many places now.
podcaster wallet.com. Contracts dot app fountain in the app
itself. LB Dalbec. You Oh, yes, right. You can onboard through
Alby as a good one. Do we know who's on Oh, and of course,
what's Brian's?
Dave Jones: The 3333 speaking, you cannot avoid the three wave
Lake
Adam Curry: wave wave like, oh my god, I just, it's really
getting exciting. And I just got to talk about two things. First
of all, Steven B's split kit is what I'm calling it.
Dave Jones: Oh, I like that. Can you please explain this to me?
Because I've been there's there was a lot of stuff that happened
this week. And I could not keep track of all of it. And I saw it
and I think I understand it, but it would be really helpful if
you tell me what it does.
Adam Curry: Yeah, so now I'm not quite sure how it works with
everything or not. But currently, you can see yo to
Eldon gar, I like split kit but E L d i n g a r.com.
Dave Jones: That sounds like a Norse god.
Adam Curry: I think it is. I think it is. Elgin Gar elding
God Okay, we're gonna remember it now Eldon Garth, the split
kid. And excuse me. That was disgusting. am 58 Oh man
syndrome. And so you you connect it to I think currently it works
with get Alby till you authorize it with get Alby in your
browser. And then you can create a QR code or link or at the same
time for a boost and splits for anything you want. So I can
just, I could just create a bunch of let's say, I'm with my
band. I'm on stage. And I'm gonna put a QR code up there.
And, you know, we got we got just the band there. And we
don't have a podcast and we may not have anything on value for
value per se. But then you can set the set the split set the
wallets, and then and then you got a webpage. And that webpage
is the QR code and alternatively a link and you and you hit the
boost button and it gives you the option you got to connect it
to your wallet, which in this case is get Alby I think they're
also going to connect it to the fountain wallet, which will be
Zebedee, and I presume more. I'm not quite sure how many wallets
it will support. And then and then you basically hit boost,
you fill in your name, the amount the message for booster
gram, and it does all the splits and sends it so it's a split kit
for any for any purpose really.
Dave Jones: So yeah, I mean, this. Yeah, this any any
purpose. I mean, it's generic. So you could do you know,
charitable stuff. Anything?
Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's.
Dave Jones: So you basically you put you put in all your splits
and it just spits out a QR code.
Adam Curry: And you can even put an image in there. I think you
do other stuff
Michael Rhee: like that. Isn't that the prism?
Adam Curry: It's well, it's like the prism. Yeah. But it's not
the prism. I think
Dave Jones: the idea of the prism is that that that's deeper
down the stack at the protocol level. But I mean, like this is
a
Adam Curry: invertible here's what's cool, because I posted a
QR code on noster just assumed people would do I mean, you
posted a QR code and Nasir people go oh, must must must
look at this. And people were immediately using it. And so I
Dave Jones: said the prison prison, the prison
Adam Curry: although that's the show title the prison. So
immediately people were using it on noster and the and you also
get the little confetti and all that and, and I think I presume
that they had their nostro accounts hooked up to their get
Alby which a lot of people have and also walled off Satoshi,
which and Waller Satoshi is a custodial thing.
Dave Jones: I think it has my understanding is that they have
a custom custodial component like component they both I think
it's I think it can be either non custodial or custodial.
Okay. But I mean, everybody talks about it as if they have a
custodial service, but I've never used it. That's yeah.
Adam Curry: Which sounds like to me as well. Which of course, is
it's kind of interesting to see how the the core people who were
there I think a lot of the people were yelling loudly when
lightning was really starting to become, you know, people were
using Lightning wallets that were custodial. This is not the
way to go. We need to have you know Run runs your own node,
your own node. And now we're not sure like who cares?
Dave Jones: Pretty much. Yeah, it's funny how the all the all
the dogma goes away once you have, you know, once you catch
the vibe,
Adam Curry: the wave Yeah, exactly. Well, I
Dave Jones: mean, this never made a ton of sense to me
anyway, because there's nothing wrong with having a custodial
wallet that just holds 100 bucks or less. And yeah,
Adam Curry: as long as you have a, you know, a noncustodial
solution? Absolutely.
Dave Jones: You just sweep it out. I mean, it's not like you
have to keep your life savings in there.
Adam Curry: And yeah, exact sweep it up. But also, I like, I
use breeze a lot as like a real functional wallet. You know, it
doesn't integrate with well actually does integrate with
most things. But for instance, with a scratch scan the QR code,
with my breeze wallet for the, for the split, kit, Elden gar,
and it's, uh, do you want to open this URL, which I already
thought was kind of cool, and open the URL, just open up, you
know, basically a web browser connected to get Alby. So, but
my point being is, like, when I when I see X amount of SATs in
my might get lb, I usually pull it into my breeze wallet, which
I used to buy stuff, you know, I use that to buy B from K and C
cattle. And, you know, so I have probably $500 in there. And all
my bitcoin, of course, is in cold storage. But yeah, I mean,
it's all just education. I agree with you. It's not it's not out
there. But of course, when the day that get Albie goes down
which it will happen. And I don't want to I don't want to
put nastiness on anybody. But you and I know it will happen,
something goes down, nothing stays up forever. But this is
your actual job. You know, you you you keep machines running,
and even the machines that the systems you built for me, like
freedom controller, have run for years and years and years. And
still once in a while. It goes down once in a while. But it
usually comes
Dave Jones: back to that, by the way, usually comes back I know
what I'll be doing this weekend.
Adam Curry: No usually comes up by itself. I don't have to do
anything. Just there's like some kind of hiccup you have all
kinds you got all kinds of trip wires and stuff. I know what you
do.
Dave Jones: It's a it's a it's a design. It's a design choice. I
think we've gotten used to in the broader ecosystem of you
know, like cloud technology, I think we've gotten used to
things going down a lot. Because there has there was the get it
out as fast as you can run fast and break things grow, grow,
grow for the VC. And so cut corners will fix it, you know,
we'll fix it in the first patch. Yeah, go ahead and shift. You
know,
Adam Curry: we'll fix it in the first patch.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, that's like, that's been the mindset
we've grown used to this mindset for the last 15 years. And so
like, but if you go into something with a slow, sort of
methodical, built, you know, approach to building it, you
don't you don't have to fall victim to a lot of that stuff.
Adam Curry: Well, such as podcasts. index.org, as far as
far as I know. Have we I mean, there's been some slowdowns or
other things when people are attacking us or scraping us but
it's been rock solid from day one.
Dave Jones: It the the only thing that is becoming
annoyingly frequent is the five is the 5025021
Adam Curry: so much scraping us. Yeah.
Dave Jones: I don't know if it's the same person that we did some
high volume scrapers start hitting us at like five o'clock
in the morning. And it's been predictable. And most of the
time we're able to take it but then sometimes like that'd be
the last one that happened either yesterday morning or the
day before yesterday there's it was down for about half an hour,
giving five oh twos. And the volume of this of this scraper
was like it was something like a million is like 1.2 million
requests in 20 minutes.
Adam Curry: Now, is that a scraper or is that just a DDOS
at that point? Well yeah, it's a
Dave Jones: yes an accidental denial service because the they
were legitimately trying to try and scrape the database.
Adam Curry: But the point is, it's freely available
douchebags. You can go download it, we make it available for
free, and what are they scraping just to stop this available for
free or something? Yeah, something
Dave Jones: no the stuff that's available for free they because
they're morons. But the thing that so what's kept me from
doing a you know, everything's all about budget constraints.
But what's kept me from doing a rate limiting at the Cloudflare
level is that it's Cloudflare is rate limiting product has always
been open ended. So like, it was like a metered product. And it
was, the way that it was the way that they bill for it is that
if, if you start getting a rate limit, if you rate limit
somebody, they charge you for every request, that gets rate
limited. Whoa. Yeah. So like, you don't get charged for this
stuff that they let pass through. But you would get
charged for every request, a fraction of a cent or something
like that, for every request that got blocked, right times
Adam Curry: a million times a million. Like somebody
Dave Jones: could just like, you, basically, you're giving,
you're just handing your wallet to somebody else and saying,
Please don't hurt me to best. Yeah, and we can't do it was
never even an option. So now they have this unmetered thing
that is supposed to based on my understanding, I think we get
it, I think we are able to use it without these scary overage
charges. So I'm gonna give it a shot to try to fix this. Because
otherwise I have to write a lot of I have to write a rate
limiter on our side. And I just have never gotten around to
doing that every right now. It's a slow, lazy process that
happens after the fact looking at logs. It's not an instant
thing. And so I would have to, you know, write a Redis base,
you know, caching rate limiter, and I just don't want it. Yeah,
I'd rather not do that.
Adam Curry: I hear you know, what was here. So here's the
here's where it gets nasty, which so no agenda, we have our
own cloud of servers, which we just had historically, for, you
know, at least 1314 years, probably. Which voice Zero has
been managing. And we got DDoS real hard the other day. And it
was, yeah, the screen? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, we go the
donation segment. Oh, I'll show these guys. They're gonna ask
for donations. And, and in the process, somehow, one of the
servers the cooling fans blew. I don't know if it Oh, crap. So
that machine went down. But then when I uploaded the show, you
know, it has to replicate across across all the servers and one
it didn't get didn't hit one. And then and then man, when you
get, you know, a portion of the audience is just getting 404.
But that's not how they respond to it. They're like, why didn't
you upload to Apple? You know, and it's, the pod verse sucks,
like, no, no, no, no, it's just no way. It's it's horrible. I
really, it's so but when things go wrong with podcasting, with
downloads, it go, it's always bad. It's always always bad.
Dave Jones: That people are so patient.
Adam Curry: I know. And we appreciate their patience.
Before we bring in our guests. I'd love to understand what
you're doing with chat if you're ready to talk about it.
Dave Jones: Oh, well, I mean, I don't even have to just talk
about it. I can show you. You could show me.
Adam Curry: What am I going to? I'm going to
Dave Jones: let me let me signal you this.
Adam Curry: We're not giving anything out on the Agile
secret? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't give it to them. Let
me see. Yes. All right. Oh, who do you want to be? Nancy?
Dave Jones: Yeah. I would like I would I would like to
Adam Curry: let me. Okay. What are we looking at? What are we
looking at here? Tell me what's going on here?
Dave Jones: No. Well, I think is interesting. They post this in
the chat. Right, here
Adam Curry: we go. Here we go. We're going crazy. I'm honest.
I'm getting a picture of myself here. I'm gonna do it all
professional.
Dave Jones: So like, I guess I'm curious as to what you think of
this of this initial screen before you actually do anything?
Adam Curry: Well, I'd like to, I'd like this right away.
Because I understood I put my name Ataman. I chose my my file.
Now. But here. Wait, here's a noster thing. That's what oh,
let me let me hit the nostril. Let me see authorized forever.
Okay, wow. Can I change my name here? Or does it have to hurry?
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, if it pulled it in from Noster, it's
going to it's going to pull in your public your public key.
Adam Curry: But I mean, the name I can I can apparently change my
name. Because it says it was all Adam curry underscore. Okay, I'm
doing that log
Dave Jones: again. Well, cool. So I don't know.
Adam Curry: There's just a nice, it pulled in my picture. Nice.
It was in my profile picture from nostril. nostril. Okay. All
right. Well, this works. All right. So tell it what are we
looking at here besides the fact that it's a badass chat? Wait,
do I have a secret? Oh, and I can see the stream up here. Oh,
nice. Okay, I like it. That's a little player there for the
stream.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's right. So this is what he was the idea
So nice. You know, we're having our discussion last week, you
know, I realized what sort of the magic is of, of the way that
noster sits with people. And you me you describe that you said,
You know what the magic part was that you went to you. The no
agenda social went down. You went to noster threw in your
public key Erythraean your private key, and boom, you're,
you're up and go and right. So the I think the real thing that
people love about noster is is that it has portable identities.
Is
Adam Curry: that correct? I think that's because I Yes,
because there's like a, was it? Habla dot news, you can use your
same identity to write a newsletter or a post that looks
like a newsletter? So yeah, it's completely portable. And it
pulls in me my name, my, my dt, if you will. Yes. Which, of
course I would love to get some deets from all these beautiful
people I see, like tone wrecker. I know Eric P. P, and who's who
said they set up their noster just for Nathan, Nathan. Right.
And so I'd love to be able to click on Nathan G and get his
noster deets.
Dave Jones: So, so identity, identity is really the sort of
magic sauce there. Everything else. You know, I mean, it.
Relays whatever you could you could put other stuff underneath
the hood. And all that's debatable. But as far as, you
know, as far as just the what the magic have been thing that
people are infatuated with noster is that I really think
it's the identity piece.
Adam Curry: I agree with you. But that plays Oh, yeah. All
right. Yeah, you
Dave Jones: know, but it goes both ways. Like we said last
week, I mean, you you a lot of times, you don't want a static
identity that follows you everywhere. If somebody goes
into a chat session in a live show, they Yeah, we're both by
the way, multiple, multiple different chat rooms and a
single podcast live, this is this is destined for, okay.
Adam Curry: I'm looking at both of them.
Dave Jones: really confusing. So, so the, like, you may not
want your identity or a particular identity tied to a
certain thing that you're involved in. But the nice thing
about about the simple Public Private Key Pair with noster is
these can be possible. Yeah, be throw away accounts.
Adam Curry: Just just like a bitcoin address. throw that one
out. Use another one.
Dave Jones: Yeah, so this. So what I what I started thinking
was what if we just sort of embrace just that part of things
to begin with? So MK Hoelscher was the chat server that I had
pulled in or that that I had built, like, built halfway,
maybe a year ago to try to start playing around with Super Chat,
cuz we have lit and we were gonna say, Okay, well, let's
pull in booster grams. I just had the Super Chat idea. And the
idea of MK Ultra was you have you have a it's a chat room that
that podcasters can spin up easily. And it's sort of an
ephemeral chat room. They can last as long as the episode or
as long as they wanted to. And it pulls in all their booster
grams and everything as this stuff is flowing in and activity
pub and all the different things that they're flying around. It's
pulling all this stuff into a chat into the chat room. And
then at the end of it, it exports you can have it as the
podcast, you can have an export a timestamped Super Chat file.
Adam Curry: Oh, oh Na, you can export that and then you can you
can use that as a set weight, then we can integrate that into
Daniel J. Lewis is decentralized cross camera stops.
Dave Jones: Not yet. My brain you I'm sorry, I'm
Adam Curry: sorry. I'll stop. I'll stop. Okay,
Dave Jones: so then you can export this timestamped Super
Chat file and now you have something you can replay like a
real super chat and you can attach it somehow to the episode
in the feed. And for people who are you know, replaying your
your episode or whatever, you can figure out the time stamping
out stuff all this stuff still takes work but that you would
have something to replay Okay, so if you pull if you pull that
idea into any combine that with nostra identities, so you can
spin here's here's how you spin this thing up. You you run, you
run the code on command line, and it gives you a session ID
which is that Cid equals blah blah blah in the URL bar, gives
you a session ID you put that goes into your lit tag when we
have the chat when we have a Podcast co launch app tag
finished, right? That goes in there. People go to that when
they when they're listening to the show, they can listen to the
stream right there on the page. But when you go into the page,
it says, Do you want to have you want to use your noster? Id,
Adam Curry: right? Or something or something else? Or do you
want
Dave Jones: to create an IDE, an identification? And Id?
Adam Curry: Are you creating a container with
Dave Jones: that? Yes. Oh, sweet.
So what happens is if you create a key pair instead, if you
create an identity instead of using a nostre identity, it
still creates a nostre identity for you, man, after you do
those, since you used your nostril identity, since you
didn't see this part, no, I did that if you if you had just put
in an avatar and a name and hit Create, it would have popped up
and said, Here's your public and private key pair, please save
this for safekeeping. Do you now want to post your identity to
the nostril network so that you can use this identity elsewhere?
If you say yes, you can, you've now created an a nostra identity
and you can take that and you can go anywhere else somewhere
Adam Curry: else. Oh, nice. Oh, it's awesome identity creator.
Dave Jones: It is an identity creator. And so if but, but the
key here is if you look up at the top where your your avatar
is, you have the little checkbox.
Adam Curry: Yeah. I see a little checkmark, I want my post to be
ephemeral.
Dave Jones: Yes. So if you if you that's the prince or the
master privacy switch, if you have that checked and it's
checked by default, anything you chat will not be broadcast back
out to noster any it won't go to any realize it stays with you
know what happens in the boardroom stays in the
boardroom.
Adam Curry: So what I'm what I'm posting now is going out to
noster
Dave Jones: if you haven't checked it is not going to
nostril, these these
Adam Curry: nostril. Okay, so uncheck it. And I say testing.
The board room chat. Okay. Yes. All right. Now I know I go to my
nostril. Yes. Funny. It was funny because I use I use snort
so it makes total sense. And I go over here. Oh, man. Dave
Jones, what have you done?
Dave Jones: Now? You know, of course the drawback of nostril
is it slow? You know, relays then things don't happen quick.
This, this. If you uncheck that, and you and you start posting
those posts should go federated out to nostril.
Adam Curry: Okay, I haven't gotten it here yet. By the way.
I do. See I got a I got a noster from Jack Dorsey.
Dave Jones: The nostril a post post? Yeah. Okay. Hey, Jack,
arguing with you about Joe Rogan? Yeah, of course.
Adam Curry: He disagrees with me. Like I don't care. So.
Dave Jones: So the idea like, with MK Ultra, it was already a
WebSocket based chat server. That's the way it was designed
from the beginning. Right. So now what it is, is a is a sort
of ephemeral chat room where you control what, where those
messages go. And if you just want it to be something, if you
want to go into it, you're essentially going into incognito
mode for the sake of this session. And then you don't have
to worry about this stuff going out into the broader world. You
but but here again, so it's all nostril inside. Cotton, but it
doesn't have to go anywhere else.
Adam Curry: I love it. I love it. I love it. I mean, what a
great start. They've I mean, I can see so and this is exactly
what I thought Nasr would be good for, is for for doing stuff
like this outside of the social network known as noster.
Dave Jones: The good The good thing about it is not that I
didn't have any sort of schema internally for this. So the
nostre are sort of message format. All that stuff is
basically this MK Ultra is now noster on the inside, got it?
Yeah. And it even if nostril nostril fails. You know, even
even if it gets us on its infection, it goes away.
Adam Curry: This will still work this this continues to function.
Yeah.
Dave Jones: Right. And the internal schema for the
messages. That's fine. I mean, I just needed one anyway, so I'll
just do this one. It's not a big deal. But now the so the next
step is to switch the WebSocket portion of it to speak that
language and then
Adam Curry: take it from other places as well. If want
Dave Jones: if wanted, yes, and so then at that point, you can
then we can start writing the bridges. So so the idea here is
not to make this a noster thing I got the idea is to have is we
want this thing sucking in. You know that way somebody can post
Do you know somewhere else?
Adam Curry: TV? Yes. IRC, I presume?
Dave Jones: IRC? Yes. Yes. And it will it will all come in here
into that. Oh, fun. It'll all get funneled in here. Yeah. And
so the end the night it's pipeline a bowl, so you can
Adam Curry: Oh, no pipeline. No Show title.
Dave Jones: Yeah. This is wonderful. You know, this is
great that people didn't think that I would anticipate HTML
injection.
Adam Curry: I'm glad. Oh, hello, everybody. Do you know who
you're talking to? Is Dave Jones, the pod says you can't
fool.
Dave Jones: Anyway, the the, you can you can sort of pipeline it.
And we could put this into like the, the web hook and sovereign
feeds. So that when you do you notice when you spin up a
sovereign state, a new live item, right, right. webhook
would also trigger spinning up a new chat session, a new chat
room,
Adam Curry: but it hasn't come through anywhere on any other
nostril clients, but I presume that's just because it's, it
might be
Dave Jones: the relays that is connected to you. Because you
know, this is a hint here again, it's
Adam Curry: probably nostril exact. Well, it doesn't really
matter to me right now. I'm super happy with what you're
doing here. This looks so cool. And it makes so much sense. And
no one has to add me in the accounts. Yeah, that's the
beauty. The beauty no admin of accounts. I love that. Do so
Dave Jones: at the at the bottom, you have your public
private key pair.
Adam Curry: Oh.
Dave Jones: And you can you can take those you know, you can
copy and paste them and take those with you if you want to go
and use the use your newly minted identities. Where else?
Yes. I'm working on lots. There's lots of work to do. Can
I
Adam Curry: put this link in the show notes so people can play
around with it when the after the after the show is over?
Okay. All right, dude. Nice. All right. So we're just we're just
calling this a first look.
Dave Jones: First Look, first look, again, various. So yeah,
well, we'll start bringing in bringing in other stuff as soon
as the WebSocket stuff is converted.
Adam Curry: Cool. I think it's time to bring in our guests,
since we've gotten all GD, unless you have something else
to talk about. But for now, I guess. Yes. Our guest today. You
heard earlier we've been trying to get them in for for several
weeks now. Actually, it's probably a bit longer than that.
They've been working on this. They are part of the hottest new
ship that is coming to value for value and the podcast index. So
hot in fact that people can't even wait for full apps. They're
just going ahead and then running with scissors which we
love. Please welcome from wave Lake co founders Michael Rijn,
Sam means hello. Oh, they said he's Unison Hey guys, welcome to
the boardroom. Thank you.
Michael Rhee: Great to be here.
Sam Mean: All this nasty stuff you guys are talking about and
Adam Curry: yeah, I've no idea. We're running with scissors once
again.
Dave Jones: This this crazy new chat rooms get every attempt to
SQL injection. Dread drips God just posted RM dash RF slash
star.
Adam Curry: Good work drive.
Michael Rhee: You got a great QA team. Krauss Oh, yeah.
Dave Jones: What so are you speaking of speaking of nostril?
Or do you how do you guys have you ever had any sort of
presence on that on that network?
Michael Rhee: Yeah, yes, sir. And pup, just get a pen and
pencils out. I'm ready to go.
Sam Mean: Yeah. Do we have enough time for this? Yeah,
we've, yeah, we've been we've been playing around on the
roster. I think I was the I was the nostra advocate for a
minute. And now, Michaels coming around? It seems like you guys
are coming around to I remember, not not even too many episodes
ago, it seemed like you were not super into the idea that
technology is,
Adam Curry: that's why there's two of us, you know, it's like
some push back and push forward, back and then something pops out
of the bottom. Let's talk about tell me about you guys and how
you created wave Lake and let everyone understand what wave
Lake is. Because this is, you know, we've obviously been aware
of each other for a long time but trying to get in into a
room. We're in the room now. Tell us where you're coming from
what you're doing. Give us the lowdown?
Sam Mean: Sure. Michael, you want to start?
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I guess. So. wavelike basically is a way for
artists musicians to put music up online and get the coin in
return from their fans. A lot you know in the way the value
for value work. We're trying to bring that or bring music to
value for value. I started working on wave like about a
year and a half. I love that. Love that little step down By
the way, also isn't it isn't I think it's really funny. Like,
it started off as booths. And now like, if you talk about
booths on Noster, like, no one knows what you're talking about.
They're like, what is it?
Adam Curry: What is the booths? Yeah, I know. I know. Yes. Like,
we
Dave Jones: don't even exist, you know,
Michael Rhee: like, right. Yeah, the kids are calling us apps
now. So, you know, we I think we can just call them SATs. You
know, that works, too. But
Sam Mean: yeah, so I started working and electric tickle,
Adam Curry: electric to another show?
Michael Rhee: Et for sure. So yeah, I started working on wave
Lake about a year and a half ago. for this exact reason, I
just, you know, started learning about lightning and thought, you
know, I'm a huge music lover, you know, I used to play in a
band. And I thought, well, this would be really cool to just
have people be able to sense that to musicians, instead of
having all these giant streaming platforms out there that are
recommending me like just giving me terrible recommendations all
the time. I just wanted to kind of selfishly find cooler new
music that, you know, those algos wouldn't be able to
recommend me. So I started building it around the same
time, kind of, coincidentally, one of the first things that I
found was Sam's music on lightning app called sphinx
chat. It just kind of made, he made kind of like a podcast feed
or a channel on things chat, but he had put his songs on there
instead of having podcast episode. So that was my first
kind of meeting with Stan. But we, you know, we didn't interact
or anything, it was just my first time, the first time ever
heard of him. And then I think a few months later, I launched
like a really early version of wavelike. And Sam was one of the
first people to check it out. And like we were on a late night
Twitter session over DMS trying to like debug stuff, because I
set it up to have artists bring their own node connected to the
site, and then there was all this kind of legwork required to
get you on board. But we finally got through it. He got on, you
know, he was one of the first artists on there, if not the
first. Yeah, and then, you know, we started talking more, I
learned more about him, you know, he runs lightning store as
well, which has all these dope T shirts that are Bitcoin themed
and stickers and stuff. Yeah, learn more about his background
as a musician who started talking more. And then yeah, in
the last, I don't know, nine months, we kind of decided like,
we should get serious about this. And then, yeah, the wave
like that you see today is basically that the result of
that collaboration.
Adam Curry: So now, wave lake itself, you have your own system
running for people to pay for music and listening to you have
different ways of doing that. And then we'll talk about how it
interacts with value for value podcast apps. What exactly is
the mechanism on wavelike? itself?
Michael Rhee: Yeah, so the way we have like work today is you
sign up for an account, we tried to make it really easy. You have
an email address, or a Twitter login, or a Google login. Once
you're logged in, you automatically get a wallet
assigned to you. And if you're an artist, you can start
uploading tracks and a really, really easy to use interface.
And then once you press publish those tracks go out to our
website, and then we simultaneously create an RSS
feed. That is podcast to Dotto compliance.
Adam Curry: Whoa, who's got the train? Hello.
Sam Mean: That's me. That's definitely me. Sorry, I work I
work in an old industrial building. And there's three
right on schedule.
Adam Curry: Sam, clearly on the wrong side of the tracks there.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, yeah. So So yeah, so once it's uploaded, the
music appears on weebly.com for our users to zap or you can just
app anonymously, you can just anonymously can just you know,
generate an invoice for something you like if you're
hearing it and you're not logged in, you can just boost it it'll
create a bolt 11 invoice for you and then you can support the
artists that way and then simultaneously we have got these
RSS feeds and I think yeah, some of them have been shown up on
players like fountain and curio cast or not curate cast or music
side project. And I don't know where else they could be going
elsewhere as well. But yeah, we were trying to you know, we're
trying to support artists in the in the best ways possible that
in this kind of this new emerging world of lightning and
Bitcoin and not cast it out, oh, and
Sam Mean: now noster
Adam Curry: Do you have any form of splits setup? Do you have a
split editor that that people can use when when the feed is
created or when their account is created?
Michael Rhee: Not yet, not but we will Got that. So yes it
Adam Curry: because that's, that's always been my dream
having dealt with I mean, I'm a radio I know Michael you're also
both you guys radio guys as well. But as a radio guy I
always want to play music in my podcast and there is there's
just no legal way to do it with ASCAP BMI, etc, licensed music
and the I forget the EU all the mechanical stuff, if it's
downloadable, it's a quagmire, the only way you can really do
anything is, you know, is you can have a stream great, you can
have a pre programmed stream, and there's all these
limitations as to what you can do. So it's completely
unworkable. And I always felt that with the split
architecture, you can circumvent all of that. So that writer
composer, you know, even for the performance royalties, you know,
like what Spotify gives to artists, you know, you can you
can bake that right in, you can make in your roadie, you know,
your road crew, whatever it whatever you want, and have that
in the splits. And I think that, to me is, is where the future is
so that everybody can get paid.
Sam Mean: Yeah, even even the drummer gets a cut in that
situation, which is under the burden.
But none of that's, that's yet so we don't have that yet. But
it's that's been in the conversation since day one.
Because that's really what we're trying to do is not we don't
want to perpetuate any of the existing problems and have been
music industry for this time. But that we just want to make
sure we do it right. So that it's it's seamless, that was the
main thing going into this sense, it was a little bit
difficult to use the an alpha version of wave Lake, and it was
a little confusing, and it did sort of, in some ways, put
things behind a wall, on this new version, everything. We're
just trying to make sure that every decision and every
information that comes implementation that comes into
it, is coming from an angle that's going to actually help
down the road and not just continue to perpetuate these
stupid things that we see.
Adam Curry: Actually, I mean, you know, what we've been doing
is we've been we have an API, we can help people create splits,
you know, that we maintain if it's not on the feed? Yeah, but
ultimately, you want that to be in the feed. How are you guys
taking a percentage of, of of every every boost, zap, etc?
That comes in?
Sam Mean: Yeah, right now we're taking a percentage, and we're,
I mean, everything's outside of that everything's free. But at
some point in time, we're gonna have to have some kind of
hosting fee. We're juggling how and how we're gonna do that
exactly. If that ends up being like a percentage as well. Or if
it's a flat rate, we're trying to figure out technically how to
do that on a scalable model. But I like I mean, I really liked
the percentage model. I work in the band merchandise business,
and that's how I do everything. I don't charge. I've been doing
that for 15 years. I don't charge anybody for anything
unless something sells so I'd like to continue doing something
like that because it's worked for me for a long time. But
technic technically you have to there's some hurdles there. And
I think you and I are a lot of like we're we're maybe not like
the most technical people so sometimes really great ideas. We
can we can I know we can. We can
Adam Curry: dream it up. We can. We can break dream big. We can
dream
Sam Mean: and cool thing. Yeah, you gotta have a good partner
Michael always says just keep dreaming big cuz like, you know,
that's the fun part.
Dave Jones: I don't think people I don't I'm not sure people have
fully realized yet the power of what Alex created when he
created the medium tag for for the podcast feed. Yeah. Because
it like this enables music has never had in the digital world.
In the digital world music has never had a delivery protocol or
delivery mechanism. That is that is open. I mean, everything has
been proprietary since day one. I mean, there's been no open
protocol for music delivery. So the the just simply tagging the
podcast feed as medium music a lot instantly allows you to have
a music delivery service that just piggybacks on top of the
existing podcast infrastructure, which is already built out. I
think the you know, in one thing that does is it puts it
decentralizes A decent realizes all of the a lot of the costs,
and maybe not all of them. I was reading this article. Today it
was this from in BW or the music business worldwide. And it said
there are 67 million audio tracks sitting on music
streaming services today that in the 2020, the 22 calendar year
attracted 10 or fewer streams a piece. That's 67 minutes. See,
that's 42% of the entire catalogue of tracks available on
streaming had less than 10 streams in the whole year. Right
Somebody but but these guys like Spotify, they still have to pay
for all of the hosting it did. It reminded me of this when you
talked about a hosting fee. Sam in like, in this article goes on
to show that Spotify is paying a minimum. They don't know, exact
figures. But the minimum amount Spotify is paying to Google for
Cloud Storage is $150 million a year to store your music which
of which 42% is not even,
Adam Curry: not even used. And that's why they got such a chip
on their shoulder about it all.
Dave Jones: Yeah, be pissed.
Adam Curry: You should shut up musician.
Michael Rhee: Well, I mean, there's interest, there's this
like this all started off free, right. Also a free and open
insert terms of music streaming. So there were mp3 That was just
an open standard file format. And then there was Napster. And
it was really easy to like, find people's libraries share music,
all that. Obviously, that system wasn't great for artists,
because people were basically just sharing music for free
without
Adam Curry: paying for it. Although although if you look at
the numbers, and I remember them well, it turned out that Napster
actually was quite a boon for the music industry, because
people would go out and buy stuff. And I believe Spotify
initially was a peer a peer to peer sharing protocol.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I remember that. But yeah, I mean, things
just kind of went behind, we kind of fit we kind of went one
direction, you know, having everything open and free. And
and now we've swung like so far in the other direction where
everything's paywall?
Adam Curry: Well, not just that, but the record companies, the
labels themselves own own most of Spotify. And they and the way
the contracts are written, you know, they can just keep raising
the rates on Spotify, whenever however they want. Well, not
whenever, but the contract duration is so short, the
Spotify really has no way to ever become profitable.
Sam Mean: I just got to Spotify for artists, email, guys, I
think there was something. So yeah, I mean, I think there's a
solution for this too, which does the same thing, although
it's one another one of those bigger ideas. But I mean, I've
always wanted to see some way to go back to that file sharing
peer to peer file sharing system, but now incorporate
something with, you know, lightning so that it can
potentially fix that problem. How that happens? I don't know.
But it seems possible. And I definitely see more and more
people talking about that, especially around noster
conversations. And in MIPS, they're I think there's at least
two nips right now being introduced that are sort of
pitching the political filesharing idea. So as that
could potentially be something that makes the interface that
you can sort of integrate and play nice. And maybe there's a
way to see that happen.
Dave Jones: We've been down the noster guys have stars in their
eyes, we've been down that road with IPFS. It's not. It's not
ready for primetime. I mean, not even close now.
Sam Mean: Not even not even close. I'm just hopeful for the
future. That's something like that could come down the road.
Dave Jones: What is your typical day? But what is the typical
wave Lake? If there is one? What is the typical wave like artists
look like when they when they onboard to wave like, what?
Where are they coming from? What are they? Are they? Are they? Do
they already have a you know, a successful thing going? Or is
this? Are these new people that are just looking to sort of
publish their first works? What does this look like? Typically?
Sam Mean: It's really cool. We've seen a wide variety
actually, now it's starting to expand quite a bit. I think we
have over 150 artists on there now. You know, we are seeing a
ton of music coming in from Africa, we're seeing a lot of
Bandcamp people. Eric, you mentioned tone record, and now
he's the listener. Tone record is awesome. Love that dude. You
know, he uploaded 125 records, I think releases is pretty cool.
But we're seeing a lot. I mean, there's, there's like a whole we
kind of joke around about it, because there's like a whole
Bitcoin genre of music. I think that was the first stuff that
came on. And a lot of the value for value. People came on, you
know, that was like the first wave. And then it just started
to catch a little bit of traction. So now we're getting
people that you know, we're seeing like bedroom projects,
we're seeing some projects that have been like in the closet,
like, Oh, I did this back in the 90s I never released it or at
least locally. But this is really fun. I want to try it
out. So I'm uploading this project, you know, from like,
1998 or something, you know, and you're discovering like cool
music
Adam Curry: in 2006. We started the podsafe Music Network and
the podsafe Music Network. The idea was you know, if you own
your music and you own all the all the you know, you haven't
given your rights away or you haven't you're not ASCAP BMI or
whatever, you've solved all of that. And then you could put
your music up on the podsafe Music Network. And when a
podcast plays as podcasters, they register they go in, they
could download your stuff played on their podcast. And the
agreement was that as part of the license, because we wrote a
podsafe music license, which is very simple. When you play it on
your podcast, you have to credit that in the show notes and
report back into the podsafe Music Network. What was
interesting, is we got a quite a quite a large number of artists
from the 70s song from the 60s who had either That's awesome.
Yeah, the stuff had come back to them, but they owned it all. And
they were actually putting their music up. And I expect you'll
see that as well.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I mean, you were mentioning it earlier,
about podcasts, about music and, you know, or sorry, being able
to put music in a podcast. Yeah, all the hurdles you have to jump
through to do that are hoops you have to jump through. One of the
things that I feel like has been lacking for so long, and
podcasting has been around forever. I can't name a single
like podcast about music where they maybe analyze albums, or I
mean, there are some but none that can really dive into music,
like pull out snippets, or play whole songs or albums and
analyze them, you know, in like a documentary style. I feel like
there aren't really any podcasts like that, because of how
difficult all of the licensing and royalties rights are
Adam Curry: correct. And in fact, in some of these
licensing, in many of the streaming licenses, you can't
even have three songs back to back of the same artists you Oh,
no, no, that's that's verboten. But I yeah, I still talk to guys
who come from the from the industry in the show, it's
broken, is completely broken. All of its broken. And this is,
this is really exciting. And when you talk about having music
and a podcast, you know, what, what my vision is, maybe through
something we call the remote item tag, or, you know, some
other mechanism is when, you know, besides me just being able
to put than artists in a in a value block split, if I play a
song, and you know, so here's three minutes of this song, I
want the value block of that song with all its splits to take
precedence over mine. And so then whatever's coming in, at
that moment, when someone is listening to that song, I want
it to go to the artists maybe, you know, I keep a few a few
points, you know, for for doing it. But I mean, these are all
things that are within our grasp, but only Dave Jones would
hurry up and build it. This is the this.
Dave Jones: Like, we have, we have this proposal for open for
remote items. So we can you know, you can share play lists,
like it's ready. Here's what I want to get into. Because we you
know, I had spoken with you guys once before, a couple months
ago, maybe three months ago, I don't remember. And y'all, you
had said some stuff that really was really important and eye
opening to me about what you wanted to learn. Because you're
I think you're really, from what I gathered in our discussion,
you were really focused on the quality of the experience for
the listener. And so rather than just rather than just throwing a
bunch of feeds out there with music in it, and letting it just
roll into podcast apps, which the current pod it, when you
listen to a podcast, the app is not set up to handle that in the
proper way for music. But what what are your because we have so
many app developers listening? What is your vision for what a
proper music experience in a podcast app looks like? Or just
not even forget the idea of a podcast app? What is the proper
music experience from the that y'all would like to see you like
on a mobile device?
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I mean, I think at a baseline, everyone
knows what a streaming music app should feel like, how it looks,
how you can find tracks, I can find artists, how things are
organized. The responsiveness of it, you know, when you press
play, music starts playing within a couple seconds at the
longest. So I think with those expectations that people are
just familiar with and used to, I think, at a baseline that has
to do all that, well. It's got to look good, it's got to feel
good. And then on top of that, you know, we have all of these
payment possibilities. Now, for a listener to be able to not
only interact with an artist directly via Bitcoin, but then
we can build things on top of that as well in terms of, you
know, message interactions. You know, we're having things like
badges that listeners can earn and, you know, those badges
could be purely Like superficial and aesthetic, or those badges
could actually mean something in terms of unlocking some kind of
exclusive access to particular artists work or, you know, extra
work. Yes, Sam, I don't know, you got other thoughts on this?
Sam Mean: I mean, yeah, I just I would like to see it be more of
a direct connect between the fan and the artist, because that's
really the most important part, like, people listen to music,
because it means a lot to them. And they want to support
artists, because if they support the artists, and artists can
keep doing what they love. And it's becoming increasingly
harder. It's always been difficult, but it's becoming
increasingly harder today to make any money as an artist,
because I mean, it's bad enough that you're making scraps from
Spotify, and Apple Music and all that shit. But you're also
having a tough time touring, you're having a tough time
really doing anything, you're having to do things like get on
Patreon, and, like, feel the pressure to come up with all
this content, just to be able to, like meet the demand of your
subscribers. And it's just not a good situation. You know, like I
work in the merch business, that's probably the easiest way
to do it. But that's even still a pain in the ass. And it sucks
for people, even sometimes to feel like like, I have to
constantly be shilling my T shirts just so I can like eat or
like buy a ticket gas to get to, you know, to my show in San
Diego or whatever. So yeah, I want to, I want to see a future
player or a lot of players, hopefully that just, you know,
maybe it's coming to genre specific or cure people are
going to players because they're curated in a specific way that
they, they love. But then once they get there, they have a way
to interact through, you know, life savings chats, you know,
basic social stuff. And like Michael said, you're able to
still have that Patreon style experience by being a supporter,
and maybe the more you support somebody, the more you get. But
on the artist side, they're not having to churn out content in
order to maintain those, in order to maintain that support,
Adam Curry: it won't come as a surprise, but I'm not a fan of
locking stuff away for premium access. I mean, that's just my,
my preference has never been that way. And I've done value
for value effectively for over 15 years very successfully. When
I look at all the elements we have, and by the way, we have to
mention again, the music side project from from Steven B,
because it really is a good start into this. But when you
see we've added a third element into value for value in the
value block, which is auto, it hasn't really been implemented.
Or you've I don't know if you've been approved yet. But auto
means the app will allow you to set a subscription type level
payment. So it could be anything I guess, you know, week, day,
month, or when a new track drops or whatever the lit stuff, if an
artist has the capability to go live like we're doing and that
is that's where a lot of value comes in it really that's where
people get excited, you don't need to be playing, you can just
be talking, you know, they can it can be without video with
video, you have all those elements, including now this
chat, which can be the chat for the artists, which is just
there. And you know, as we know, it links to nostril. So there's
all these all these different elements that just need to be
molded into an experience. And what I identify is, when I see
Steven be creating music side project, you know, before even
anything is the content is it's just barely coming. You know,
it's not, it's not like the feeds are automatically
submitted to the index. And you explain perfectly why. But then
I also see Joe Martin who just went, Hey, I'm just gonna, this
fountain thing is kind of working and, and he's blown away
by the amount of value he's receiving over any of the other
platforms. So it feels like we're so it's so there's a lot
of pent up energy. And once we hit that, whatever that that is,
and I don't know, you know, it's going to be a combination of, of
artists or artists, and how they already communicate with their,
with their, with their audience or their base. And some
technology it's going to happen, it's probably been in a
surprising way. You know, I was already blown away by Joe
Martin. And you know, and what, what he sees as the fountain
platform, which of course is much broader with other apps, I
think you're going to be surprised as long as we can keep
implementing these things and someone is showing the way,
because you need that you need an artist to actually do it and
run with scissors, as we say, to get something going. I think I
think it'll just there'll be a flood of the show. Yeah.
Sam Mean: Oh, yeah, that's gonna happen. I mean, that's, that's
why that's why wavelike exists. You know, as Mike was kind of
explaining how I didn't know how to do anything, but I could
figure out through breeze and Sphinx and RSS feed a couple
years ago that's like, oh, I can sort of create streaming money
on this with my music through these podcast players. And it's
super rad and I but I don't know how to build this in for an
experience that's going to work for The artists are like, you
know, hey, he's out there. And now we have wave lake. And so
that's cool. But you need people now, like, shout out to Joe
Martin Joe Martin rules, too, because you need these
advocates, we're gonna need these bridge advocate bands that
are like an artist or, you know, maybe just heard about Bitcoin
on one leg and the bid on the door and Bitcoin. They're trying
to make money, they're feeling the pain, and they discover this
stuff, and they start talking about it. And like, every great
thing, through word of mouth, this is going to all this stuff
is going to happen. Another cool thing too, I want to, I want to
mention because I was just talking about this the other
day, like, I'm super excited for when people start communicating
in between albums, cycles, even just like, hey, I'm working on
records, these are my demos with you guys think, and can monetize
that process to get you through from one album cycle to another
would typically that's been a really kind of a dry period for
artists. Yeah, that's,
Dave Jones: that's the beautiful thing about podcasting is you
have, you know, and why that why it makes so much sense to layer
music distribution on to the podcasting sort of guts, is
because the main podcasters are used to that all the time
dropping, you know, it's so effortless to drop an extra
content in your feed. Like it's not a it's not a huge lift. And
so, you know, you have this sort of like a quick feedback loop
with your, with your listeners. I think music, you know, the
more the mute, the more the technology gets out of the way,
I think you get better music. Yeah, I think there's a lot of I
guess the beauty of a thing like Spotify or Apple Music, is you
just tap the app, and you're there. You don't have there's
not there's not complexity. And so that's where we need to get
to on the open. The open distribution side, is we need to
get to that same level where it's, you know, somebody can,
where I can say, you know, what I can tell one of my kids or, or
one of my friends, you know, hey, install this, install this
app. And you and they're all your mute, you know, like,
there's a whole bunch of music for you to find this brand new.
Because my kids are in, they're very involved in the local music
scene, they both have bands and stuff like that, and they both
play. And so they're all they're already in sort of in the indie
music culture. And if if there was an an app, where it was
literally as easy as a Spotify or an Apple Music, but all the
stuff was from local independent. So you know, self
sovereign art musicians, they, they would absolutely flocked to
it. They would use it, they would send boosts, they would do
all that. But the it can't be a podcast app, quote, unquote. It
has it can use the podcast infrastructure. But it has to be
a music app. And but you but the I guess the good thing is you
can take advantage of all the things that podcasting does
well, like, you don't, it doesn't have to be stream only,
like one of the great things about podcasts and podcast apps
as they they already what they want to do they want to download
the episode for you. They want to download the tracks so that
you don't get dropped dropouts, when you walk into a, you know,
an elevator or something. Like there's a lot of those things
that they already have, you know, the EQ, they have, you
know, complex audio processing, and that kind of stuff in there
to make to make stuff sound better. There's a lot of things
that they are really good at. They can be, they can make the
experience even better than the big apps.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I think I think that discovery element is
really important too. Because, you know, with all the mega
streaming services, I don't know. I'm sure everyone else
gets the same feeling that they're being kind of herded
into the same 10 artists yet or which way you try and turn your
Adam Curry: songs in Spotify owns the rights to,
Michael Rhee: yeah, hey, it all worked out in the end, because
the labels on Spotify and Spotify will funnel people to
the labels work right. And so and so I think what's really
exciting about sort of open distribution and kind of
different clients being able to curate content in different
ways, but all on the same kind of foundational base layer of
source material. We have the opportunity to create a diverse
experiences for different people depending on what you like, if
you're interested in finding something new becomes a little
bit less of a, you know, a hunting expedition and more of
something that you can kind of count on certain curators or
different sites to be able to do I think that's, that could be a
really exciting time. But you know, maybe a revival of music.
From what we've seen of the what happened over the last decade.
Adam Curry: Also, I'd like to remind us that, you know, I'm
not a kid anymore. I don't think Dave can qualify. But you guys,
but it's always amazing how we'll go back to the days of
Napster and Limewire. And, you know, I saw my daughter, that
she, she was looking for stuff, or she heard about something,
and they would install the most complicated things with really
no great player experience or anything like that, just to be
able to, to get what everyone else was talking about. You
know, it's like, sometimes we're very good at overthinking what
the experience has to be. And, and I think the content always
speaks for itself. And just like with podcasting, you need to
have the artists themselves the bands, they need to be saying,
Hey, check it out here. And yeah, look, you're always your
own marketing, you know, you've got a band, you've got it,
you've got a market, you've got to you got to let people know
what you're doing. And if this is a place where you can get
value back easily, we, I hope everyone can get out of them. No
one is going to be Beyonce anymore. Beyonce is Beyonce. You
know, it's just the percentage. And the likelihood of that
happening is, is as likely as anyone becoming the next Joe
Rogan. It just doesn't work that way anymore. But you don't need
it. Because your community, your 1000 fans, your 2000 fans who
follow you who love your stuff, they will support you, all you
got to do is learn how to ask and have the mechanism right
there, which is what have the boost button or the ZAP button
or whatever it is have it right there. So it's easy for people
to hit and hit and go.
Sam Mean: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like, it's like how touring
works, you know, like you, there's bands that have managed
to have careers and survive. For decades on being able to play
club shows around the country, you know, it's like, we can go
out every spring and fall and play 45 shows in and make a
living off of it. It's going to be cool, when that the same
amount of people, you know, you can take those 10,000 people or
8000 people and survive as an artist instead of having to
dream big and become the next Beyonce or some kind of mega
superstar. You're going to need millions and millions and
millions of people. I mean, even now on Spotify, it's hilarious.
Even with millions of streams, you're still not making any
money. So yeah, this this is just this gonna change
everything. Hopefully,
Adam Curry: I have a question for you guys. This is probably
the hardest part, I would presume. How do you vet what is
being uploaded? So that people aren't uploading, you know,
Spotify had this problem, you know, oh, here's a movie they
uploaded, you know, how do you how do you vet all that?
Sam Mean: I mean, luckily, because everyone else had this
problem before us. I mean, right now, it's super easy, because
it's not things are not being uploaded at a pace that we can't
just manage. But you know, there are tools, like, you know, what
are they called, like, Michael helping out here? Like, like,
Shazam? Yeah, like, it's just recognizes? Yeah.
Michael Rhee: Yeah. But I think verification is a big part of
not only ensuring that the artist who owns material is the
one who's uploading it, but I think also down the road, in
terms of making sure as a fan, that my payment is going to the
correct individual, you know, now we have keys and
cryptography and all that, to help us verify that, you know,
we're actually paying the person who made the work. I think
that's a that was a big possibility, too.
Sam Mean: That was one really cool and inspiring thing that I
saw on there, in the very early days of the nap of the master
bedroom was, you know, when I first logged on, there were 10
Jack Dorsey's, probably. And everyone was like, which one's
the right Jack Dorsey, and then you're looking at follow list to
see who's okay. It's like, I think maybe this person is
following this person, they probably know, you know, but
then they fix that really click with one of the new 57, which I
still think needs a lot of work. That's not a perfect way to
verify people, but to be able to use a domain easily for
verification. That was least inspiring in the sense that it's
like, these problems seem like they're huge, but you can do a
quick fix for the time being until you can until you come up
with the ultimate solution that's going to last
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's another good
thing about about podcasting is It's decentralized but as
decentralized through it's almost like activity Pub is It's
decentralized sort of towers of, of control. So you have because
pure decentralization, I mean, we all know pure, pure 100%
decentralized things is very, very difficult. Like yeah, Like
monumentally difficult so much that so many people have been
trying for years and years and years, and it still has
drawbacks. I mean, you know, I've been vocal about all the
drawbacks about noster that bother me. But the thing about
the thing about podcasting is, is that you have, you know,
hosting companies did, you have a ton of them how all that, you
know, wave wave Lake is a hosting company, you have all
these hosting companies. And so you have a measure, sort of like
Mastodon, you have these, you have lots of people, and it is
decentralized, but it's not so decentralized, that there's too
much pressure to get everything right on, on the individual. So,
you know, the individuals are sort of like proxied through
these points of control, which, which makes it, it makes it
easier, it's sort of like a, it's a compromise. That's, this
sort of ends up being good for everybody. Because you're, you
know, when I know that I'm not literally getting, you know, a
million feeds a day from all over from every Tom, Dick and
Harry, you know, that exists, like, so I'm getting fades from
wavelike. I'm getting them from Buzzsprout. And so, I think that
it slows the pace down. And like you said, it makes it where you
can have a little bit like, you can have some sanity about this
thing and not have to feel like you need to solve every problem
that exists.
Sam Mean: Yeah, that was, that was some really good advice that
I got from from Roy breeze early on, he was one of the people
that I talked to first about this, just because breeze was
one of the first you know, things bright, was able to plug
music into and stream stats over over it. So. But in the end, the
early conversations with Roy was like, you know, how do we do
this? How do I get someone to build this? Like, what will you
put this in breeze? How do we figure this out. And the biggest
thing back then was like, We got to take these guys down, you
know, like Spotify and Apple musics of the world. And he was
just like, Hey, dude, like, chill out, you take them down,
you don't even take them, they'll take themselves down
like this is the better model, just all we got to do is just
keep working on the better model. I mean, which is so true.
And I'm a Bitcoin, dude. So like, I know that perfectly
well. If you just play the slow game on these things, if it's a
better system, it's going to work. And if we keep adapting to
these things, these these technologies and make this
better system even better, and everyone else is on, you know,
the slow moving train from the prehistoric times, they're not
going to be able to keep up and then by the time it comes
around, they're not going to hit them. And that's, that's
probably the way this is going to work out. Someone asked, we
were in Nashville, earlier this week for a design center thing,
and someone asked, you know, like, what we would think about
Spotify implementing value for value or the Lightning Network?
That's not, it's just not going to happen? No, it's not gonna
happen. If they can't make money. They can make money now
there's no way they can make money. If they're being fair,
you know? So it just, it's just not likely. It's not It's
incredibly unlikely for that to happen. What's more likely is
we'll just create a better system. In doing that, it'll
inspire other people to create even cooler stuff and things
will just things will just slowly go that way. You know, it
just might take some time. All this stuff takes time. nostre is
going to take time Lightning Lightning, it's we're five years
into lightning, it's still still early. Oh,
Adam Curry: yes. Oh, yeah. This it takes a lot of time. But when
I see the, what has happened with value for value in in just
two years, even the biggest detractors who've come around, I
mean, it Yeah, takes time. But it is a logarithmic scale. It
goes up fast. At a certain point, it just moves it really
moves.
Sam Mean: Yeah, slowly.
Michael Rhee: I think one of you guys are saying like there's
pent up demand for these kinds of products out there. And I
think, you know, the early adopter crowd, who's understood
who understands value for value, who understands what we're
trying to do a wave like, you know, I just get the sense that
they've been waiting for something like this to happen
for a while. And they get it and I think it's just a matter of
time before you know other people kind of
Sam Mean: follow along.
Adam Curry: Yep, they are gonna have to do some work though.
Freedom doesn't come without that extra step. That's that's
what it always boils down to. And we see the people who are
successful with value for value in podcasting, you know,
they've, they've taken that extra step you got you got to
dive in. But one thing I know, is the excitement of having, you
know, even if it's an Alby wallet, the excitement of
putting something out there, whatever it is, and seeing
Satoshis drip in while people are actually listening or
enjoying on the other end, I think there's nothing like it.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, that's that's there's no comparable
experience to that. I was one of the musicians we were talking to
a Nashville was was saying that exact same thing where he was
saying, you know, if I put my stuff up on a major streaming
site, I might see a check from them for a few cents after it
was actually listened to, and he's like, but on your side,
I'll get boosts I got boosts, like the first day I had music
on the site. And that kind of, especially for an artist who so
much of the work is sort of inside your own head, or like
with your bandmates. And you're sort of just like, you're trying
to make the best thing possible. But in the end, you have no idea
if anyone's gonna like it, you love it, but you have no idea
what it's gonna be like when you put it on the world. And so that
instantaneous feedback loop where you can publish something
you've been working on and have sort of put your heart and soul
into and to see that like, returned, right when people hear
it. I think that's a that's a huge game changer in terms of
motivating that person to like, keep going, you know, you're
doing something right.
Adam Curry: Do you even see streams created on Spotify in
real time? Or is that also an end of month report?
Sam Mean: You can see like through aggregates like TuneCore
district kid date, you can you can definitely cannot see it in
real time. You can see it sort of like maybe a 24 hour delay,
you can get estimate estimated streams. But it's the there's no
depth to it. It doesn't feel you know, you feel nothing from it.
It's hard to really feel anything for the music business,
just like soul sucking lightness, lifeless experience.
Overall. I've been doing it long enough to know. But yeah, it's,
it's it is so it's it's the thrill. I mean, it sounds so
cheesy, but it like it really is just because it's like, oh,
you're, you know, I'm yeah, I'm in my early 40s. I've been
making music since I was a kid. And I'm, like, rejuvenated by
this, I want to make more music, just so I can explain this.
Because like when you get, like when you get you know, it's like
records that I made 10 years ago, are getting boost and
getting comments, people are discovering it for the first
time. When normally I know how it goes, you make a record. And
if you know, unless you're incredibly lucky, it kind of
just goes back on the pile. And people come and come back to it
every once in awhile, but you never get that feedback again,
you know, unless you do something like go on tour, play
the songs do the whole.
Adam Curry: That's a good point. I mean, I even see it was with
podcast episodes. You know, people go back and they listened
they start some start at one now, you know, but they people
will listen to all kinds of older material and then still
send a booster gram or something like that you see it? You know,
she's for a minute stream coming in? Oh, yeah, it's phenomenal.
It's a wish everyone could could witness this. I wish you could
have that feeling people. Everybody needs to see like, get
the feeling. Got no, no, good. No, go ahead, Dave, please. Oh,
Dave Jones: I was just gonna say, Michael, you've got enough.
You've got enough coding experience now with creating
podcast feeds and doing that kind of thing. What? What do you
think? I'll see how don't want to ask this. Do you see anything
missing? Or do you need? What do you think music? As a platform
layered on top of of a podcast distribution? What? What do you
think is? Is there anything missing? Or is there a thing?
Are there things that you can think of that you would love to
see done? But you don't know how or you don't think they exist?
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I mean, I can say, first of all, that you
guys have done a great job with the spec. I'm not a spec guy. So
to be able to go to GitHub, and just see it all laid out and see
the motivation and the rationale behind all the decisions. That's
been incredibly useful and valuable for me. As far as, you
know, the way that I guess the way I think about using the
feed, and the two that Oh, spec for music, the way I always
approach these kinds of things is I don't want to create a
modification to a widely adopted spec unless it's absolutely
necessary. Because if that many people already have agreed upon
a certain template or a certain description for these fields,
you know, you better have a dead end. And this is I think, this
is an article I found through you about like, you know,
standards on the internet. You know, I think like, you better
have a damn good reason and really need to make a change if
you want to force everyone else to follow that change with you.
And so the The way I see it, you know, like, I think Adams talked
about this too, like, what is an album? You know, if not just
like a show, right? And what is a track on an album? You know,
it's just the same thing as an episode in that show. And so
we've been just trying to leverage what exists and just
use it in a way that logically that logically maps to music.
And I think it works. I don't think, as far as I can tell, I
don't think there's much we need to change. And I know there's
options in there for like transcripts. Right? I mean, you
could easily put lyrics in there. Or maybe there's two
separate things, right. I don't know. But
Adam Curry: an album Mark can come back finally.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, and then yeah. And then you have, you
know, podcast show art is album, I mean, all these things can be
easily translated. I think anyone can make the can make the
leap pretty easily. And so yeah, as far as the limit lacking I
would say, there's, there's more than enough there to do music
and more.
Dave Jones: What let me ask you about that on the transcript
side, because what do y'all do LG lyrics now?
Michael Rhee: Any? No, we? Yeah, I mean, we're pretty small team.
We actually just hired one other developer and brought him on And
alas, Oh, congratulations. Thank you. That's been a it's been a
big, it's been a big advantage. And it's also a big change. Just
you know, having a third person join us. But yeah, it's been
great. Josh, if you're listening, you're awesome, man.
Sam Mean: Thank you, Josh.
Michael Rhee: But we love you, Josh. You rocks. You totally
rocks. But yeah, I think I'm sorry. I lost train of thought
there was yeah,
Dave Jones: like a deal. Like, how do you handle lyrics? Do you
do? Do you do anything about generation? Or do you allow your
artists to submit lyrics or ahead? What is your plan for
that?
Michael Rhee: I think we would, I think eventually will allow
artists to submit their lyrics. And then I think there's also a
way to timecode them if I'm not mistaken, in the Yeah, so that
would be great to have not only the lyrics available, but also
you know, cuts of a track with the song as the as the person is
listening to it. Yeah, so I would I would love to see that
in the future.
Sam Mean: Okay, it'd be cool to use the transcripts to have it
auto generated and then give give the artists the ability to
go in and edit the transcript. If, for some reason pick
something up from I've used those before, and like, you
know, auto auto transcribers, and like, their 99% there, but
sometimes they get things a little bit goofy, it'd be cool
to be able to adjust it but have that stuff all automatically
there. At least the start would be great.
Adam Curry: If you guys don't mind. I'd like to read a couple
of booster grants that have been coming in. People have been
asking some questions making some comments. And you've
probably heard the pew pew so we'll kick it off with hard hat
thinking hard hat one a 101. Boosting from curio Kassar, it
just says boosting fun, of course, take that. another row
of ducks tu tu tu tu from hard hat. Mike Dell keep on running
with scissors go podcasting. With Freedom boost 1776 Steven B
would who doesn't know him curio caster music side project
sovereign feeds 3333. And he says 10 songs is one of my
favorite new albums, which I think is cool. Yeah, I think
he's been promoting that as well. Dred Scott. The Bruce
Wayne of podcasting. 2.0 77,777 SATs just boosting for the
boost. Thank you dress.
Dave Jones: It was almost a Satoshi slam but he was 11,001
he was a satchel of Richard's away from Satoshi slant. Holy
Adam Curry: crap. Oh, I like how you calculated that you had that
ready to today if you were ready for that one. That was ready.
Blueberry 17,776 Big freedom boost I want to give big thanks
to Sam for guidance through setting up a BTC pay server. The
lightning dot store website is amazing. And seeing it was the
kick we needed for BTS and the V for V swag is going to be a hot
wet summer of garage printing. All right. Blueberry, Steven B
comes back in with a short row of ducks. What are your ideas on
categorizing music by genre to make search for music by type
easier, as I guess is a question for for both you guys. And maybe
even Dave
Michael Rhee: That's yeah, that's Yeah, question.
Sam Mean: It is a great we've we've had some good
conversations in our telegram chat about just the concept of
genres, you know, what they what they really are, we definitely
need to work on some kind of filtering. But it's tough to
know exactly how to do that because it's you sort of have to
predefined a lot of them I think or else you can get a lot of
duplicates and goofiness. And in just the way things are
formatted and stuff, but I think that's a tough one because you
don't want to, you don't want to leave anybody out. But you also
want to be able to filter through this stuff, especially
as the library begins to grow.
Adam Curry: Is that something that is self selecting, though?
I mean, it's always been a bone of contention with podcasting as
well, what category? What type of podcast is this? I mean, I
don't know. Dave, do you have any thoughts on that?
Dave Jones: Well, it's it to me this, this all goes back to
discoverability. Problem and discoverability. I will say
problem in quotes. Because the issue when you when you want to
categorize something, the only reason you categorize it is so
you can find it later or so somebody else can find it. By
Category instead of if, when they don't know what they're
looking for. So if you have in that only really works, if you
have, if you go in there and choose, let's just say no metal
core to go in there. And that's your genre. And there's six
albums there, that's great. You can discover new new music that
way, if you choose metal core, and there's 18,000 albums, you
might as well just go home, you can't you're never gonna You're
not gonna find anything. So like, category, like I agree
with you all, genre category is only useful to a certain volume.
And then you're just really, it just kind of falls off. So I
tend not, I tend to get dis disheartened by trying to even
work on it. And I always kind of bail out.
Adam Curry: This is what I always liked about Napster is,
you know, if I search for a song, and I found it, then I was
like, Hey, what is this guy? Have? You know? And then you go,
because if you if if that person had a collection, don't just a
listener had a collection of songs I probably would like,
then I would find other things in there. When Dan came that,
that discoverability that's what I think is the key.
Sam Mean: Yeah, that's definitely a way experience on
Napster.
Yeah, that's a way better way to discover music, like this
person, or, you know, through playlisting through through that
exact thing. Recommendations. Yeah, it's
Michael Rhee: so yeah, go ahead, Sam.
Sam Mean: I'm done. I think we got a little bit of a delay. I'm
good.
Michael Rhee: Okay, I'm just gonna say genre, like genre is
really tricky, because I think it's so subjective. Like some
listener, you know, you've mentioned metal core, like, I'm
sure there's nine different sub genres of metal core, that metal
core fan like, you know, you get offended if you were to put one
with the other but, and then the other tricky thing is like, when
you're in a band, you like, you think you're one thing, right?
Other people, like, if you have an agent, or like, like, you
know, promoter that week? No, no, you're this and we're like,
but we thought I was just like, artsy, like, artsy, like prog
rock band, they'd be like, No, your bog hat or whatever. I
Adam Curry: mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even say, you know, if,
if there was an app that just had a trail, you know, here's,
here's what else I listened to be. I'm not even something not
even not a playlist necessarily, that I put together, although
that's also that's also valid. But just oh, here's the stuff I
was listening to the I come back to this every single time I
opened up fountain, I saw Dave Jones, who had boosted
something. I went to go listen to it right away. It wasn't for
me. But if I see that again, I'll do it again. Because
Because I know Dave and I know Dave tastes, Dave's tastes and
do some things will be for me. Something's not but that's
discovery. You know, I think search by genre, algorithmic
stuff. That's that's a path to death and destruction. Oh, by
the way, Dred Scott. There you go. 1888. Nick came right back
just to show us that he can do it. Another one from Steven B.
Hey, wave Lake one. What's your plan for automatically adding
your directory to the index right now bands are adding their
wave Lake feeds manually? And I'll give you the second part to
what's your plan for being able to play albums and wave lake
that aren't hosted on wave Lake? These are big questions.
Michael Rhee: Put in this question.
Adam Curry: When you're stumped, we have stumped the band.
Michael Rhee: So I think Dave alluded to this a little bit
when he was talking about the way we want the fact that we
want to make sure that music is presented in a way that's that
just looks good that make that that sort of puts it puts its
best foot forward, so to speak. And one of the concerns we had
about auto loading the feeds into podcasts index was that we
were concerned that these albums might show up on well, they
would show up on value for value podcast players presented sort
of out of whack. And so I think our thinking was, you know, in
order to sort of, I guess, preserve the quality of the
experience for music listeners, you know, I think it's great if
people make other value for value music players like I think
that would be a first step in that direction and seeing more
of those would give us more confidence, putting music
medium, tagged feeds into the podcast index automatically. But
I think like right now, we just don't see that yet. But we're
hoping we're hoping that starts happening soon. And then the
second question was having feeds consumed by wavelight.com? I
think, yeah, we would like to see that as well to have like
self hosted feeds on wavelight.com. To be perfectly
honest, we haven't seen very much demand we do. We have like
one request that I can name or think of, of that of someone
wanting to publish their own feed, but you know, in terms of
like, everything we've got up in the air right now, it's on our
like to do list but it's because there's so many other things
we're trying to push forward to, you know, make the site is
Adam Curry: greatest, faster, build faster, build fine. Sam,
Seth, the CEO of pod fans comes in with 10,000 SATs. He says add
rel equals episode or rel equals track to create a pod role or
music role to create playlists. So he's already thinking we have
that we have another 10,000 from Sam Sethi. He says boost our
comments was SATs zaps are like payments but no comment. That's
definitely a way to look at it. And there's another 10,000 from
Sam Sethi go to bed Sam Aldi has added he says I'll be added the
noster in pub public key to the API we are this is for pod fans.
We automatically pull this into pod fans and now have a nostril
icon on the user's profile. So it's spreading this idea of the
distributed or the identity you can you can take with you or
create a toss like a burner identity. Anonymous 19,760 Pew
pew who's buying lunch Thank you. Drip stop just testing
testing Elden gar the the split kit 7777. We have n v n for VX
with elite booster team. 37. Thank you for your coding. Thank
you for your courage. Dred Scott. Another test of Eldon gar
was 7777 Eric p p with 33,333. No Nope. Tone record with a
short row of sticks. Sherlock Holmes seek out that 10k SATs
and boosted a few minutes before today's meeting started up.
Okay, I'll see that in a sec. I'm sure. Chat F with a test
Dred Scott with a test tone record with a Van Halen boost
1984. And I think we are Oh, Martin Linda's koge says I look
forward to Dame Jennifer's animated version of the episode
our podcast 2.0 micropayments actually worth it by Daniel J.
Lewis with a short row of ducks while she's working on it,
there's a long one. So it takes about one minute I think takes
about an hour of work. So hopefully she'll have that done
in a week or so. And then I'm at the delimiter So Dave, you want
to thank some other people who have helped us with this value
for value project known as podcasting. 2.0
Dave Jones: Yeah, sure. We don't have any one off PayPals this
Adam Curry: version completes conversion completes.
Dave Jones: But we do have lots of boosts we've got a 808 a boo
boost from chat as he says verifying my feed well Chad your
feed is verified through the tricolor. That would be the
Swedish tricolor. I'm imagining 1234 through fountain. He says
in his message it says podcasting.
Adam Curry: Yes, podcast podcasting.
Dave Jones: Let's see somebody Oh, that's that's me. What how
did i How did I How did I boost myself probably
Adam Curry: illegal by the way in 2016. So
Dave Jones: I know and I know what this is. This is Dave Jones
says 2112 And it says through breeze Dave Jones again here and
I don't care about verifiable identity. That's me. I know what
that's okay. Yeah, and I think I know who this is. Yeah, this
Yes. points. Point taken. Yes. Point taken 20 And he just keeps
on going. Todd from Northern Virginia 11 111 Big satchel
Richards through breezes is boosted boosted real good.
Sorry. Boost. Nicholas B 58 5000 SATs through fountain. This is
nice episode keep boosting guys. All right. Thank you. Thanks,
Nicholas. Another one from Nicholas and other 5000 SATs who
fountaining says another boost from the Swiss German Bitcoin
podcast called oh lord de decentral Schwartz podcast and D
decentral. slides boost boost boost.
Adam Curry: Good enough for me. Yeah, I'm
Sam Mean: gonna Yeah, I'm gonna boost you on that for that one.
Dave Jones: Okay sorry sorry for this shameless plug. Great work
guys. Thank you. And another another one the last one from
Nicolas be 58 through fountain and he says another boost boost
boost. Clark in my buddy 25,001 SATs through fountain Ed says
boop beep all right, don't just boost our Davis at seven 4000
SATs the pod verse in our Davis says as to the discussion at the
beginning of the show on transcripts, I don't think as a
podcast listener and a future podcast producer, I don't think
we need a word for word timestamp. I think it's
overkill. What we have now with SRT is fine.
Adam Curry: You're in the minority there.
Dave Jones: Normally Think About It with Think About It with
music. I mean, look we're talking about today I mean, a
word for word follows a bouncing
Adam Curry: ball.
Dave Jones: Mm hmm it's pretty strong. I mean, like I can
imagine especially for you know, hearing impaired I don't I'm
high on the word for word timestamp.
Adam Curry: I'm with you.
Dave Jones: I'm with you on that. Are David's 87 4000 SATs
through pod verse again. He says I love all this web hook talk in
JavaScript. I can't get enough of this hot namespace talk gets
me all excited to go podcasting and pod Father, if you will.
Yeah. Please give me a goat screen. That's in the that's the
other day.
Adam Curry: Actually have it somewhere.
Dave Jones: Mere Mortals 2222 through fountain.
Adam Curry: Found the co founder. I found the goat
Dave Jones: goat delivered. The Standards Project does sound
like a lot of politicking. I wish them all the best with it.
High five. Yo, yo. Joel who says hello? Richards through
fountain? No, no, thank you, Joe. Jean bein elite boost 1337
says hopefully fountain will want to be PSP certified and
will implement transcripts. True
Adam Curry: that answers my question.
Dave Jones: What was your question?
Adam Curry: I wondered if they had transcripts? I guess they
don't. They don't.
Dave Jones: Okay. Gene being again, delete moose through cast
Matic is this How is what Adam wants from noster different from
an OAuth or open ID system? I think it I mean, I think it's
because there you can create them with it's just a public
private key private key pair and you could tell some of the
things just because the throwaway identities and they
don't require near as much work. Yeah. I mean, that would be my,
my guess there. Gene been 2222 through cast medic says, Adam,
if you've had this 180 degree change of opinion on booster
Graham's showing up in apps? Why are they still all for this
show? And fountain?
Adam Curry: Oh, let's have him to turn back on. I don't think I
can control that. Can I? I don't think I can turn them on.
Dave Jones: We have to request it from Oscar Oscar. We'll
Adam Curry: do it. Yeah, let's turn them on. Sure. I mean,
clearly it works. And I thought I had I thought by adding a
split in there, it would actually enable them. So anyway.
Yeah, I'll ask Oscar to turn on. Absolutely.
Dave Jones: Gene been 10,000 says the foundation has really
enjoyed Tom and Kevin being on the show and all the hot
namespace talk.
Adam Curry: You guys are sick. Okay, y'all. Like it hotter
namespace talk,
Dave Jones: sir. twin screw 1893. He says I'm with you,
Adam. I like the nostre concept. It's kind of like keybase
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. I don't like Cubase. Interestingly, I
understand what you're saying. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Alex had a good analogy for noster the other day
he said it's sort of like ham radio relays.
Adam Curry: Oh, totally. That's why That's probably why I like
it. That in fact, there is a protocol out there based on the
J x nine protocol I think that works on very low power and you
can actually it's all digital so you have a program on your on
your laptop and connects to your radio. And people can your your
radio can function as a relay to send the signal further when it
receives it from one to the other. And I can already see
some some crazy person setting up a Nastar on ham radio jet to
propagate I guarantee and I'll be there. I'll definitely
participate. I love that stuff. Doesn't
Sam Mean: doesn't NBK do that. Because he was like a ham. I
thought he was a ham radio guy.
Adam Curry: I think I don't know if he does that. He's definitely
a ham radio guy. You know, I was arguably I was the first person
to receive SATs over ham radio. Someone else claims that but it
was
Sam Mean: Yeah, I thought he was he was doing the SATs over ham
radio thing. Was he doing that with you?
Adam Curry: Know It was somewhat I don't know. It was sold as
years ago. I don't remember. I don't remember.
Sam Mean: Yeah, ham father to
Adam Curry: know. They call that no, wait for it. They call that
an Elmer. So no, I'm okay. Being an Elmer
Dave Jones: Steven B 1000 SATs through through the elding gar
app. Oh, nice to see a new app show up. Yay. He says elding gar
easy podcast link builder test boost. There. You weren't by
Stephen. by five. He got about about six days and they're all
good Steven boomie of the lb teams and has 2100 SATs and he
says high five.
Adam Curry: Yo, yo, thank you. Borlaug.
Dave Jones: 101010 coronary whoa
Adam Curry: Sakala 20 is Blaze. Oh my. Oh my god. I figured we
throw that in for Sam. We're getting their train going you
know.
Sam Mean: Don't get another train and
Dave Jones: you need train in your podcast. Thank you Borlaug.
He says how many sets does it take before we can put board
member on a CV like anaise episode? That Oh, baby.
Adam Curry: Oh, that's that's a good question.
Dave Jones: Well, often, how many sets will it take to get
Mr. Dave Jones to do another weekly podcast another week? No,
a lot more than 100. I love what you're doing. And I love both of
you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you Borlaug. Thanks
for that cast VLAN 3692 found and he says like the Gnostic
talk getting some old BitTorrent Sync feelings around the things
I thank you for working for free.
Adam Curry: BitTorrent saying how you doing booth? Yeah, I
remember. Remember another failed project, too bad
Dave Jones: decent 100% District decentralization is? I'll say it
again. It's impossibly difficult, although
Adam Curry: I will say that, you know, as someone was looking to
pull in all the old daily source code archives. Someone I think I
think Chris Chris Freising founded some some lonely old
dude still out there, had a BitTorrent Sync Node up with all
the daily source code episodes and we were able to collect them
from that one from that one person.
Dave Jones: He's also the guy that runs NTP or whatever, like
Adam Curry: what an NTP you know,
Dave Jones: like Network Time Protocol,
Adam Curry: that old dude and NTP isn't that NTP the network
Dave Jones: doesn't use this use net in into NNTP. He's using it.
Adam Curry: Oh, okay. What was yeah, I forget what it was.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that are to see our Davis at seven 4000 SATs
through pod verse. He says a day before pre boost boost at this
way saying I'm getting last year, a day before pre boost
boost. TM pod father and podsafe just finished listening to the
future podcasting and wondered about your thoughts on Daniel J.
Lewis. His proposal for cross app comments also interested in
hearing your thoughts about the ideal of making the chapters
comments and transcripts, transcript tags, child tags of
podcast metadata tag. As always, thank you for your courage and
go podcasting? Well. I think we I think that deserves its own
discussion on its own episode. But yes, it does have lots of
thoughts about it.
Adam Curry: You already shut me down when I just when I just
brought it in. You shut down. And rightfully so.
Dave Jones: Yeah. I listened to Dan. I listened to that episode
with Daniel and Dave. Great description. And I think it
deserves its own sort of breakdown. They did an
Adam Curry: episode about the about the crosstab. I'll have to
listen to that. Obviously that right after we're done.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, I opted for that instead of reading the
documentation,
Adam Curry: right. Yes. Thank you,
Dave Jones: lyceum. 2222. So see, blah, blah, blah. Nope,
that was that was one we already got and Macintosh. 2100. Just
listen to the Marty bent interview. Love it. Dave, when
do you sleep? I can't wait to hear more about this new tool
today. Yeah, well, you just heard it. Yeah. Good, good
appearance on TFT. See there.
Adam Curry: Thank you. Thank you. I love Marty. I want a
great, great guy. Yeah.
Dave Jones: And we got the delimiter comic strip blogger
30 3015 through fountain, and he says, daring Dave and artfully
ardent Adam. The delimiter is proud as punch to bankroll the
longest running continuously boosted podcast in the universe,
especially with the salubrious value of BTC trending
heavenwards God willing, this will be the priciest pager duty
there is your automated Umbral checker will only ask that you
consider the AI dot cooking podcast show as an option to
spend some time with once a fortnight yo, it's dsbn growth
Adam Curry: if you boost Thank you gentlemen. Good booths,
everybody. Appreciate it. It's value for value and I think we
probably have some monthlies or some PDFs that have come in that
we want to thank people for.
Dave Jones: We do we got some monthlies. We got a pod verse
$50. Thank you Mitch. Oh, Lauren ball $24.20 $24.20 got basil
Phillip $25. Mitch Downey also a pod verse $10. Christopher Hara
Barack $10. Terry Keller $5 Chris Cowan $5 Jeremy Kavanaugh
$10 Jeffrey Rutherford. $5 David Norman. Hey David $25 Damon.
Kesa Jack $15 Derek J. Vickery. $21 and lovely name. Paul
Saltzman $22.22 and Jeremy gerdts $5.
Adam Curry: And, and believe it or not, we have a tally coin.
Tally coin on chain Rev. From No no, no, no, no. From this is
from chyron
Dave Jones: Oh, for Mere Mortals. Yes,
Adam Curry: he says Sam is super cool. That will be Sam Sethi who
we interviewed Did you hear that interview? Did you hear that?
That interview they did.
Dave Jones: Dave not yet.
Michael Rhee: Get Akito
Adam Curry: feels like we barely scratched the surface such kind
words. So this is to make Adam feel warm and fuzzy inside
30,330. SAS thank you so much current appreciate I love it
when someone uses Italie coin, because so many people requested
it because they're gonna send us plenty of mucho Bitcoins. And it
turns out they don't. But we we really want you to use a modern
podcast app, get that a podcast apps.com Boost us of course, you
can go to podcast index.org Scroll down to the bottom, we've
got to two red donate buttons, one for PayPal for your Fiat
fund coupons. And of course for the tally coin. And again, we
like getting the boost and the booster grams. And thank you for
supporting the podcast in 2.0 podcast, the boardroom and the
project. You are in fact keeping the engines running. And we
cannot thank you enough. Have we? Have we missed anything?
wavelike boys?
Sam Mean: No. This is really, this is awesome. We covered we
covered all ground.
Dave Jones: Everything exhaustive.
Adam Curry: Yes, I am so excited about the future and what you
guys are doing and will continue to keep motivating app
developers. I mean, it's it's a it's a heavy lift. You know,
creating, creating an app is not easy. Of course what is very
cool. Is there several open source projects that that people
can use to get a start with where are those do we have? Do
we link to any of those Dave? Was there any time player is
that one? I mean, there's Yes, you can you can pick up by
breeze breeze itself is open source. You know I'm gonna start
hassling Roy. Hey, by the way, where was Roy's? Where was Roy's
boost?
Dave Jones: Did not see a ROI boost. Maybe we said something?
Maybe we offended him?
Adam Curry: He's like, No, I am not sending anything to them.
I'm just going to sleep now.
Dave Jones: It's my it's my fault for knocking down a
takedown. noster need.
Adam Curry: I'm gonna talk to you. I know. Now wave Lake is
already integrated as an app, isn't it into breeze?
Sam Mean: Though I think it needs to be updated. Like the
old version was on there for a second. So I don't think it
really works. Now we have to get that upgraded on the new version
of whatever the new version of race comes out.
Adam Curry: Leave it to me. Let me talk. Let me talk to
Sam Mean: you take care of Roy. Oh, yeah,
Adam Curry: it's what I do. I love taking care of Roy. But I
do.
Sam Mean: I wanted to say it again. I love Roy's rugs the
best and
Dave Jones: he's a great he's a great person. Great person.
Adam Curry: All right, gentlemen. Well, thank you so
much. Continued success. We're here whenever you need
something. Whatever we can do, we'd love doing it. Dave any
final words?
Dave Jones: I mean, if you'll indulge me I just wanted to get
a wanted to get one recommendation from Michael and
one recommendation for Sam for an album off of yes, you know
alpha off of wavelength that they are stoked about. Now Now
you each have music. Also. You're both musicians. There's
one cannot you cannot reference yourself horns coming back to
haunt you. You what? Give us one give us one each What do you
enter? Okay, yeah.
Sam Mean: I'm trying to find the name of it because I've already
forgotten the name. It's the Turkish punk band
Dave Jones: All right, punk.
Adam Curry: I like it Turkish punk band. I like it.
Michael Rhee: Oh, well. Okay, so while you look that up? I would
recommend a band called Silver unit. Awesome. Yeah. Have a
great one. Yeah, they have an album on wave like that. I
really dig so I would recommend that one.
Sam Mean: Yeah, actually, I'm gonna I'm gonna give a shout out
other than like the easy ones Jim Martin to homewrecker. I'm
going with man like quex he did the M Pub song is sitting at
number two on our top 40 right now. And it's the first track to
drop wave lake in lyrics, which was pretty
Adam Curry: nice. Hearing that you guys have a top 40 May I
just say that as soon as we can as soon as possible. I would
love to do the wavelength top 40 Show.
Michael Rhee: Countdown Oh, yeah. Okay, some style,
Adam Curry: everybody. Y'all I would love if as long as we got
with value blocks. I will do that sounds so cool. I will do
it. I love to do it. And I am. I'm excited about that idea.
Dave Jones: Can we get a wave like foo bar Friday? Yes,
exactly.
Adam Curry: Exactly. Exactly. Be very, very cool. And I think
that would that would hate people love charts, man. If we
could do something like that. And then definitely, I'm all in.
Michael Rhee: Yeah, I grew up listening to Casey's top 40
Every weekend
Adam Curry: now it's a long distance dedication. Alright
guys, have a great weekend day my brother have a good weekend.
You too, man. All right, chat room. Thank you all very much
for joining the boardroom of podcasting. 2.0 we return next
week once again to bring you all the best in podcasting.
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