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Adam curry John C. Dvorak.
Sunday, December 24 2017. This

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is your award winning give our
nation media assassination

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episode nine or fighter three.
This is no agenda. Celebrating

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the UN protector of shy Iraq and
broadcasting almost live from

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downtown Austin Tejas capital,
the drone Star State in the

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studio in the morning,
everybody. I'm Adam curry

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and from Northern Silicon
Valley, where I'm not really

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here today. This is a recording.
I'm John C. Dvorak. Buzzkill.

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We get better at these as we go
along, don't we?

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I don't think so. Okay. Well,
Merry

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Christmas, John. Tomorrow's the
big day.

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Merry Christmas to you. And
Merry Christmas to everybody

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listening. Yeah, tomorrow is the
big day. And it's a nice Monday.

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Christmas is perfect for
everything. It's a little extra

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time off. Although I think next
week, everybody takes the whole

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week off. So

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Oh, really? Who gets to do that?
We don't get to do that. We have

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a we have full show of kids.
Kids,

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kids, kids. Yeah, we're going to
be back on Thursday live.

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Because this is a special show.
So you could go to Chicago?

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Yeah. And I could go shopping in
the last minute

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important stuff. Yes. Because
you'd like to get everything on

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the cheap and celebrate

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the last myth ever. I'd like to
get to the last minute because

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like a men's club.

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I've been a member of this club
for many, many years. Yeah, you

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go in there and it's not pretty.

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Oh, no, it's not pretty. But
everybody's everybody knows

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what's going on in their soul
men.

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Yeah, y'all shop y'all give that
look like? Yeah, we are the head

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nod, right?

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We're here again. Yeah. Hey,
here.

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How you doing this year?

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Huge. I'm sorry. So I was just
gonna say what do you have lined

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up for us on today's show?

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So we're gonna go on Infowars.
Like was that about two months

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ago when I met Steve Puranic.

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Dungeon longer now? Wasn't

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maybe everyone says Dr. Steve
Chang. I know Steve. Steve

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botanic, who is, as far as I'm
concerned, the psychological

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warfare master of our US
government. could be it could be

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it could not be.

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There could be just a
disinformation artists really,

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you know, but if you look at his
Wikipedia,

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and you look at every other
every other biography that he

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does check out. I mean, he
really did hold these positions.

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He really was. You know, he was
part of the hostage negotiation

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team for the hostages in Iran. I
mean, he's done so many things.

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But the thing that annoyed me
and, you know, after I did that

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appearance on, on the seed man
show, but he got in touch with

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me. He's like, I want to talk
with you. Right? I

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said, become buddies. Yeah, he's
my handler.

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I always tell him that you'd
think to nah, nah, nah, I'm not

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your handler,

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okay? Because he knows who the
handler is not him. He knows

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you.

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And so he's, he's, but it's very
interesting fellow that he loves

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talking. But he always gets cut
off whenever he certainly

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whenever he is on, on Infowars.
But I don't think I've ever

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really seen him just in an in a
normal interview without

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commercials. And we can just
tell his stories. And he's got

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stories. You can use

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that guy talk. Yeah, just the
idea. Exactly.

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No pre interview, no setup of
questions. Just in this. Two

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hours, I think. unedited crap.
Yeah, well, it was easy to be

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in. And what and while he's
talking, I'm like, I'm listening

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to the stories like, let me
check this out. And, and he has

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the names, the dates, he knows
exactly what everyone was doing.

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And so that must be a part of
his of his thing. His skill. But

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we talked about how man just so
much it was it was, in a way a

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bit like a bit unstructured,
like the no agenda show. So it

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kind of fits in with our format.
No clips, no, no, of No, nothing

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like that. Just him talking. And
I think that for me, after

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talking to him, I said, you
know, like, I want to believe

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everything he says. But it's
some of it is so unbelievable.

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That it's just hard. It's hard.
It's hard. Yeah. And I'm the

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first I'm a first guy to be to
be an easy target for me like,

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oh, yeah, I'm all in on that.

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Well, I was thinking about this.
And so I think we got together

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and talked about not
interrupting this conversation

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with another words, when we do
these shows. Typically, we stop

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in the middle and ask for
donations. And we're not going

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to do that this time. We're
gonna go right to the end, and

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then just signing off. And I
want to mention to people

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though, that because we're not
doing donations, I have to few

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kind of housekeeping issues.
One, anyone who was executive

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producer for this show, or
Associate Executive Producer,

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based on the donations and any
donations that come in, that

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came in after last show, and
it's coming in today and the

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next day, that will all be
pushed to Thursday. We're having

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a real show on Thursday, and you
get to be a lot longer donation

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segment, but it'll all be there.
So don't worry about that. And I

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want to remind people that we do
the shows, but we can't really

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promote them as much donation
part as much because there's no

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thank yous. I want to remind you
to divorce.org dv orak.org o RG

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slash n A if you want to.

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I have never ever ever in 10
years I don't think heard you

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spell out your last name. Right?

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Because I don't think I have
ever before and I, I realized it

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was a probably a mistake.

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Yes. Because the way to remember
this,

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I don't know slash amp find a
and find the D evey.

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Where's the d value? I can't
find the D Vol. rack.org. So

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there you go. All right. Well,
we'll say goodbye at the end of

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at the end of this special show.
But you're right, remember us

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and our value for value model at
devora.org/na. So now without

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interruption, our special for
this Christmas, which would be

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nice to have with a little
eggnog by the fireplace, and

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everyone else looking at you
like you're an idiot. As you're

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snickering away with your
earbuds in my interview with Dr.

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Steve botanic says, you know,
Steve, you're one of the most

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interesting people I know. And,
and, you know, this is really

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why I wanted to speak with you,
is because I never, I never

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really get a chance to listen to
you finish a thought or finish

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the sentence except on your own,
on your own videos in your own

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website. Because you're always
getting interrupted by

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commercials or there's never
enough time. And I feel like you

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know, there's I've never really
heard a longer interview with

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you.

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You know, that's a good point.
And it's probably a metaphor for

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my life. But one of the reasons
that I never finished, or nobody

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allows me to finish the idea,
no, no, I think it's really

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important to understand it in a
way you picked up a very crucial

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dynamic for me. Nobody really
wants to hear what I have to

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say. Many times, even in medical
school, or elsewhere, I kind of

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talked about the future. And
it's obvious to me what's

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apparent to me is not obvious to
others. So they cut me off. And

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I learned to keep quiet or, you
know, make a joke, and then just

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pass the time away. But you hit
it on the head. I mean, this has

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been true since I was a kid.

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And I think this also determined
your career, which has been is

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almost like a dichotomy when you
look at your Wikipedia for lack

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of a better place to go look at
your career. Well, you go ahead.

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Good.

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I'll tell you what, the
Wikipedia is not accurate, but

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it doesn't matter to me. I mean,
that's it's not relevant. My

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career really was a series of
ideas and and ambitions that

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could not be immediately
realized. In other words, very

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early on in my life, I
understood that I was going to

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do something creative. I was a
piano player for a classical

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pianist. That's a fancy way of
saying it for many years. But I

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knew I could never end up to be
a composer

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where you're not somewhat of a
prodigy even when you were young

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playing piano.

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I don't know. I don't know about
a prodigy. But I did play on the

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young American artists series.
And I did play many well known.

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I hate to say tunes, but music,
Chopin, Rachmaninoff and I

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played on WNYC. And I played a
town hall. Yeah, but one of the

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one of the key issues and I
think you get to it very quickly

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as I didn't want to perform, or
what I wanted to do was to

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create now I knew I couldn't
create music. I didn't have the

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background. But there was a
compulsion and neither really do

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writing since I didn't speak
English. And I came to this

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country with only two languages
Spanish, and French, it was a

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real challenge for me to say,
Wow, this is an incredible

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language. And at school, we
really didn't learn English very

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well. And I it was incumbent
upon me to learn how to say

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things or to translate them and
even till today, sometimes I

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write in an awkward sentence.
And and my significant other

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stashes says, this is European,
this is not America.

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Sometimes even sounds a bit
rude. Well, that's correct.

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And and, and, you know, I don't
intended to be rude at times.

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But when I want to be rude, I'll
be rude. But very often, I don't

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intended to be rude. And then I
understand that the construct

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now was really was this when you
were in Cuba?

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No, actually, I left Cuba when I
was about four or five in the

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late 40s, early 50s. My parents
were very prescient about the

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notion of communism coming in
because my mother had been

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through the communist regime.
She said, I'm not going through

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another one. And he came here to
the United States, and my father

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was a physician. He had been in
the French army and that,

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unfortunately, was defeated in
the six weeks. And his first and

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last order on the French army
was a retreat. So I pretty well

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understood France from that
point on.

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Nothing. It's still the same
thing. Well,

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it's true, it's still the same
except for the Vietnam War where

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they literally hoodwinked us
into a combat situation, which

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was a name. And the French have
a great ability to do that with

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the Americans. They bring us
into places we don't want to be

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Vietnam, Africa, Djibouti, you
name it, we're there. And so

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why is there some special
relationship that we have with

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France that besides them coming
up with the basic idea for the

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Republic? What well, why is
this?

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The French, I hate to say this
are quite seductive. And they

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are very good at manipulating
our intelligence service, as you

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know, and your family I mean,
they came forth with this

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cockamamie idea that they
thought they created called

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counterinsurgency in Algeria,
which was was a joke, because I

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grew up in Toulouse and I saw
how the Algerian colonels and

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the French kernels blew up
everything and they were angry,

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and I saw the French round up
the Algerians, but they

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convinced a few of our
intelligence operatives, that

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it's such a great theory, let's
do it in Vietnam. And John F k,

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bought it and then LBJ bought it
and the CIA bought it. And

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before you know it, we were
doing exactly the the exact

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mistakes that the French had
done and the NBN foo and before

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that, and you see that and many
parts of the Ken Burns a series.

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I

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so you know, so here you are,
you're learning English. You

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play kickass piano, and then a
certain point in medicine is

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where it is for you.

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That's the key part, played rock
mana show what I really love as

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I was listening to Little
Richard and Chuck, right. And it

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really was in the 50s, where you
didn't quite play that. So I had

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to sneak it in. And I loved it.
And I thought, Wow, that's a

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miracle to me. When you're
talking about rock and roll and

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blaring music and the God that
guitar riffs and the drumming

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breath, I said, now that's what
America means to me. And to me,

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that was the beginning of my
open eyes to American with the

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real America was a band. I mean,
very few people would go to

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Carnegie Hall to hear somebody
play Chopin, that dude or

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Nocturne. But I would go to the
Brooklyn Fairmont or downtown,

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to hear the platters. Whatever
other group there was, because

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this was great. And I grew up in
Harlem. So on 100, Nathan

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Amsterdam, you know, I had this
milieu around me, which was

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really rock and roll and black,
black and blue, blues and rhythm

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are truly the roots of rock and
roll. And I can't tell you that,

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you know, he was the I would say
at the beginning, but I've

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00:12:51,659 --> 00:12:55,949
certainly, you know, when I
heard Antoine Domino, I and I

220
00:12:55,949 --> 00:12:59,699
heard his blueberry hill. And I
knew that his name, I could

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understand that they were French
people in this state called

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Louisiana. And they have Falk
agents. And so that influenced

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me. I mean, eventually I
listened to it to go on then

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from there. I use those
characters from the cage area

225
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into my novels. And because it
allowed me to be both American

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and somewhat French at the same
time, without being pretentious.

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So that was an influence on
Chuck Berry was an influence.

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You know, most of my education
was really listening to rock and

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roll in the back of the room.
And listening to the teacher. I

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was not a great student, quite
frankly,

231
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:43,650
but yet you became you became a
doctor.

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Yeah. Well, I knew the route to
becoming. That's a good point,

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Adam. It's the kind of thing
where one of the things that

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influenced me very early on was
the realization. And because I

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spoke French and Russian, and I
would read with my mother would

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read on my own. There were
several physicians that

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influenced me quite a lot.
Somerset mom, who was a

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physician, and he wrote a plays
while he was a physician, as

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well as novels. Not many but a
few. AJ Cronin wrote the keys of

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00:14:18,210 --> 00:14:23,220
the kingdom and the Citadel. And
then I had Sir Arthur Conan

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Doyle, who wrote Sherlock
Holmes. So very early on in my

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00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:32,820
career, rather than the look to
music at Ah ha, what I see now

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00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:37,560
is, I can be a physician and at
the same time, I can go through

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the Kabuki of being adopted but
at the same time, I can create

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something that's on my own, was
it we would say, sui generis,

246
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but that only that fancy, so
they influenced me and then the

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idea that I'm going to be a
physician, but at the same time,

248
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I'm going to learn play, right.
And in fact, when I went to

249
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Cornell Medical School, which
was an excellent medical school

250
00:14:59,790 --> 00:15:03,150
and was very tough to get in.
And they taught you quite a lot.

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I still went to the new school
and learn how to write three act

252
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plays. And my influence at that
time was a famous American

253
00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:14,700
playwright named Sidney
Kingsley, who wrote men and why,

254
00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:18,720
and won a Pulitzer Prize. So
throughout my dreams and

255
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,190
ambitions, excuse me, Madison
was just the the, the bottom

256
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,720
starting point, but where I
wanted to go, so I went from

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00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:32,700
medicine to writing. But then I
got drafted, which was fine with

258
00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:38,310
me, because out of the class of
ADA, I was one of the one of the

259
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two and maybe the only one, but
that was the agreement I made

260
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with America. And one of the
things that I enjoy about

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00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:45,840
America, and I'm grateful for

262
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,150
it, and this is a key point,
because this is something that

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00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:51,270
has gone by the wayside. That's
the thing that is so

264
00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:54,450
misunderstood today is kind of
the deal, the agreement with

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00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:56,550
America, which you understood
that it may be just was

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00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:59,010
understood that it has been
forgotten and gone by the

267
00:15:59,010 --> 00:15:59,850
wayside today.

268
00:16:00,689 --> 00:16:04,349
Well, I think most people don't
understand the social contract

269
00:16:04,349 --> 00:16:08,609
that's implicit in coming to
America. You know, so many

270
00:16:08,609 --> 00:16:11,969
people wanted to come, my
parents were fleeing the

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00:16:11,969 --> 00:16:16,139
Germans, they had to go through
Spain, Portugal, and then Cuba,

272
00:16:16,499 --> 00:16:19,469
from Cuba to the United States.
So you know, when people say,

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00:16:19,469 --> 00:16:22,049
Oh, we should come in here
automatically. That's not

274
00:16:22,049 --> 00:16:25,619
correct. We were very loud. We
had to learn a certain amount of

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00:16:25,619 --> 00:16:29,879
English, my father had to pass
an exam. Or if he didn't pass,

276
00:16:29,879 --> 00:16:33,929
he go back to loose but for me,
when I was a teenager, very

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00:16:33,929 --> 00:16:38,009
early on the select Service
explained to me that I had the

278
00:16:38,009 --> 00:16:44,069
choice, I would be drafted. I
said that I understand that and

279
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:48,149
in return, you know, I could
become an American citizen. Now,

280
00:16:48,149 --> 00:16:52,799
that was a rare contract. But it
was listed in my world say,

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00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:56,309
yeah, yeah, if you want to be an
American, you have to pay the

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00:16:56,309 --> 00:16:59,459
price. You don't pay the price
with money. You don't pay the

283
00:16:59,459 --> 00:17:03,239
price. By avoiding the draft,
you pay the price by putting

284
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yourself on the line, be it
whatever war now, did I want the

285
00:17:07,619 --> 00:17:11,579
Vietnam War? No, I knew about
it. I probably knew much more

286
00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:14,399
about it than the generals knew
about or even our presidents

287
00:17:14,399 --> 00:17:18,779
because I was in Toulouse at the
time when Jim B and foo

288
00:17:18,779 --> 00:17:22,859
occurred. And it was obvious to
me that how it came about and

289
00:17:22,859 --> 00:17:26,729
why they failed and why we would
fail. Nevertheless, I was

290
00:17:26,729 --> 00:17:31,199
drafted. And then from that
point on, that agreement came in

291
00:17:31,229 --> 00:17:34,259
and as a result, actually of
that agreement, you know, I

292
00:17:34,259 --> 00:17:38,339
served and then I went on to go
to Harvard and MIT where they

293
00:17:38,339 --> 00:17:39,839
paid for my education.

294
00:17:39,870 --> 00:17:41,550
Now. Where did you serve?

295
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,260
Well, I first served at the St.
Elizabeth's Hospital. They

296
00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:50,760
brought me in first they brought
me they they drafted me to Fort

297
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,500
Meade, and then it was switched
over to the Navy in the Navy put

298
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,770
me in under the Public Health
Service to St. Elizabeth's

299
00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:01,560
Hospital where we had the
criminally insane. In other

300
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:07,290
words, at that time in the 70s,
you really had to have military

301
00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:12,600
officers taking over now this
was pretty much like we were a

302
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,560
GMOs general medical officers
and I had three or four wards of

303
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,400
really criminally insane people.
And I've said, is anybody going

304
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,460
to train me here? And they said,
Well, you're in there, you know,

305
00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:29,190
good luck. Some of Archer back?
Well, yeah, I mean, again, it

306
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:32,610
was imperative that I kind of
learned what I was doing. And

307
00:18:32,610 --> 00:18:35,640
then what I did was to sneak
into the actual residency

308
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,000
program that they had, and they
were pretty nice about it. And

309
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,840
then I learned how to take care
of schizophrenics and killers

310
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,650
and murderers. We ordered
lobotomies. I hate to tell that

311
00:18:46,860 --> 00:18:50,880
I was the last one toward the
bottom. And unfortunately, oh,

312
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,100
yeah, that bothered me was they
were they

313
00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:55,260
were pretty effective. I mean,
they they worked.

314
00:18:55,950 --> 00:19:01,140
Well, let me put it this way. In
principle, in theory, our St.

315
00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:05,280
Elizabeth's had people who could
verify that the bottom is work

316
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,150
in the last case that I had,
unfortunately, it did not work.

317
00:19:09,150 --> 00:19:13,590
And we did a autopsy. And it
turned out that the young man

318
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:17,280
who'd been born in the prison or
in the in the prison, insane,

319
00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:20,970
insane asylum, hadn't half a
brain so we couldn't control him

320
00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:24,660
with anything else. But that was
the last Labatt and the and then

321
00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:30,240
from then on. I was told that I
would go on, they give me

322
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:33,810
education for two to three
years. So I went to Harvard to

323
00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:37,920
actually learn psychiatry, even
after I spent two years already

324
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:42,180
practicing psychiatry, but I had
to get a degree but my real

325
00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:47,910
interest was in intelligence and
and bringing in psychiatry into

326
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:51,750
foreign affairs. Now, that was
unheard of. Nobody even knew

327
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:57,420
about it. You know, when I got
the orders to go, it was to go

328
00:19:57,420 --> 00:20:01,260
to the Public Health Service,
the public UC Health, Division

329
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:05,640
of Mass General or Harvard, as
well as Harvard psychiatry, but

330
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,710
instead, I took the chance to go
to MIT. And there, I had met

331
00:20:10,830 --> 00:20:14,460
really what I was looking for
Lucien pie if the the solar pool

332
00:20:14,460 --> 00:20:18,330
and lo and behold, it was called
the John McMullen Center, which

333
00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:21,570
was the center for national
relations at MIT. And it was

334
00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:25,020
funded by none other than the
CIA.

335
00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:29,070
And that's when it got
interesting.

336
00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:32,460
Well, yeah, that's exactly it.
And that's when it got

337
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:36,480
interesting. And at the same
time, I was fascinated, and

338
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,620
emotionally, I could connect to
the country and understanding

339
00:20:40,620 --> 00:20:44,280
that, as a physician, and as
someone who spoke other

340
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,230
languages, our country America
needed these types of talents.

341
00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:52,860
They didn't necessarily need me.
But they needed to understand

342
00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:57,930
how psychiatry and psychology
would impact the evolution of

343
00:20:57,930 --> 00:21:02,400
America, and particularly in not
so ironically, how the

344
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,840
President's personality would
affect the policy and the

345
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:12,720
outcomes of our nation. And so I
had an incredible education and

346
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:18,000
illusion. Pi was my mentor. We,
I kind of spent six weeks while

347
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,800
I was on night duty at Harvard,
and immediately got through the

348
00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:25,770
years, the undergraduate years,
and then we went on to the

349
00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:30,660
graduate years where I was
trained. Here's the real kicker.

350
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,910
I was trained in the on the
internet and social media by sal

351
00:21:35,910 --> 00:21:39,600
de sola pool. And I don't know
what year was this Steve? Set

352
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,600
the to to send the force? So I
don't really know what Bill

353
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,050
Gates Zuckerberg did. And I
don't know who the fathers of

354
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:48,750
or hadn't invented it. Yes, this
is amazing. I

355
00:21:48,750 --> 00:21:51,600
don't know, forehand and
abandonded. And Google hadn't

356
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,830
invented all those narcissistic
grandiose individuals had

357
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:59,970
invented it, and Silicon Valley
was nowhere to be found. But

358
00:21:59,970 --> 00:22:04,950
ironically, those people in the
CIA and the DARPA, Defense

359
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:10,380
Advanced Research Projects, were
really quite incredible and

360
00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:15,180
picking out myself and others to
say, Okay, now, you're going to

361
00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:18,510
join us. And we would like to
train you on the necessary

362
00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:22,530
skills. So even though I was
still in the maritime military

363
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:28,740
under the PHS, or the naval part
of the PHS, I say, what is PHS

364
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:32,670
do public health service, so I
worked at a national Institute.

365
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:35,970
Now you would know that there's
no PHS now and there's no

366
00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:40,320
surgeon. But at that time, it
was a very effective system. And

367
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,500
immediately, I went back to the
National Institute of Mental

368
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:48,990
Health on the Bert Brown, and I
covered working both in

369
00:22:48,990 --> 00:22:51,600
intelligence and at the National
Institute of Mental Health, I

370
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,030
was able to go to Romania,
Poland, and most importantly,

371
00:22:57,030 --> 00:23:01,530
the Soviet Union. And it was
there that I began to understand

372
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:05,640
the my innate ability to
negotiate and understand the

373
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,050
dynamics of the Soviet Union and
at the same time, incorporate

374
00:23:10,050 --> 00:23:14,580
the training that I had from the
CIA, and MIT. And what happened

375
00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:19,170
was, the Soviet Union had a
psychiatric hospital called

376
00:23:19,170 --> 00:23:23,100
Pachenko Psychiatric Hospital,
which was run by Armenian

377
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:27,810
brothers who were very nice KGB
of our tanyon and his brother.

378
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,150
But the head of it was a an old
Stalinist, who was actually

379
00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:37,290
Stalin's last psychiatrist, or
whatever that was, and I forget

380
00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:41,550
his name, and I went there and
what that hospital was doing and

381
00:23:41,550 --> 00:23:46,350
what the KGB was doing, was a
very clever incarceration, which

382
00:23:46,350 --> 00:23:50,100
was, which went as follows. If
you're a political dissident,

383
00:23:50,430 --> 00:23:55,050
they didn't call you a political
dissident. They created a term

384
00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:59,760
called sluggish schizophrenia,
which as a psychiatrist, we knew

385
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,110
didn't exist. It was absolute
nonsense. But what I realized as

386
00:24:04,110 --> 00:24:07,500
an intelligence officer, and
that was when I was discussing

387
00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:11,850
it with others involved not at
NIMH, it was a way to

388
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:15,750
incarcerate political
dissidents, where there was no

389
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:20,160
oversight from a judicial point
of view. So I immediately went

390
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,690
in there and started to
commoditize, the political

391
00:24:24,690 --> 00:24:28,170
dissidents who, by the way, were
Christians, fundamentalist,

392
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,850
Baptist Anabaptist, but I didn't
say that, and I didn't say any

393
00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:35,580
of that. And I didn't talk about
human rights at that point. He

394
00:24:35,580 --> 00:24:38,370
was under the Nixon
administration. And what I did

395
00:24:38,370 --> 00:24:41,160
was in discussing the
individuals who are

396
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,780
incarcerated, I use their names,
and then I would offer at that

397
00:24:45,780 --> 00:24:50,370
time, Wang computer software.
eautiful Yeah, the big way.

398
00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:54,600
Exactly. Well, the big wing at
that time was major, but you

399
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,800
know, eventually I commoditize
Christianity, and most people

400
00:24:58,860 --> 00:25:03,690
said what, as said well for
this, but let's say for Mr. X, I

401
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,140
was quite important as
Anabaptist. I said, I will give

402
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:10,770
you five Wang computers. I
didn't say he was a political

403
00:25:10,770 --> 00:25:14,580
dissident and the head of
Pachenko hospital the Stalinist

404
00:25:14,790 --> 00:25:18,750
understood what I was doing. And
then for Mr. Why I would give

405
00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:22,200
you four Wang computers, and so
on and so forth. So I had about

406
00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:26,220
15 to 20 political dissidents
who were really Christian

407
00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:31,920
dissidents who refuse to accept
the Soviet system. And I knew

408
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,220
the Russians well enough that
what they do is what we call in

409
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:39,300
the Soviet Union. Now here we go
to the left. So we talk to the

410
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,880
right, in other words, I talk
above the surface, but then

411
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,260
underneath the table, I know I
have to control their back end

412
00:25:46,290 --> 00:25:48,660
in what they do behind my back

413
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:52,740
in and so in Europe, we say, You
talk left and you feel right.

414
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:56,910
That's exactly correct. Oh, I
didn't write you talked a big

415
00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:59,070
left game, but you fill your
pocket with the right.

416
00:25:59,490 --> 00:26:03,540
Correct. And and so what
happened? That's a very good way

417
00:26:03,540 --> 00:26:08,520
of saying it. And what happened
there is I asked myself, I asked

418
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,330
the chairman of the psychiatry
department who was more than

419
00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:16,200
just KDB. I said, I need a
letter of agreement between you

420
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,130
and me, Steve Pjanic, and blah,
blah, blah, whoever that was.

421
00:26:20,490 --> 00:26:22,950
And he said, Of course, he said,
Why do you need it? I said,

422
00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:26,820
Well, often we have trouble when
we, you know, we try to

423
00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:30,300
implement this problem. And of
course, I anticipated there

424
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:33,930
would be major problems. And so
when the Soviet delegation came

425
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:38,580
over, the Foreign Ministry said,
No, we don't have any agreement.

426
00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:42,360
We will not release any
political dissidents. I don't

427
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,960
know where that came from. And I
just pulled out the letter, and

428
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:49,590
I showed it to the foreign
ministry. And they backed off

429
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:50,370
and they said,

430
00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:54,870
Were you employed by CIA at this
point?

431
00:26:55,529 --> 00:27:00,599
No. The irony was, in reality,
I've never been employed by the

432
00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:05,549
CIA when I work. So it's kind of
a love relationship, a marriage

433
00:27:05,549 --> 00:27:09,839
of convenience and convenience.
Although they train me, they

434
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:16,109
wanted me to come back in and,
you know, bring me in full time.

435
00:27:16,109 --> 00:27:19,739
And I said, guys, I like you a
lot. But I really don't want to

436
00:27:19,739 --> 00:27:24,059
be constrained by your top
secret and all the other Kabuki

437
00:27:24,059 --> 00:27:27,569
that you do, but I will work
with you. So for the most part,

438
00:27:27,629 --> 00:27:30,329
everybody thought I was CIA,
which was fine. You just a

439
00:27:30,329 --> 00:27:33,869
contractor, basically, no, I
wasn't even a contractor. I was

440
00:27:33,869 --> 00:27:39,089
really under military control. I
really was a Navy captain at

441
00:27:39,089 --> 00:27:43,859
that time. So quickly, went to
the military side, but I worked

442
00:27:43,949 --> 00:27:46,889
with, you know, it was an ad hoc
arrangement. And to this day,

443
00:27:46,889 --> 00:27:47,909
it's always been the head

444
00:27:47,940 --> 00:27:51,480
up. Right. But it's interesting,
because I would say you have

445
00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:55,380
quite disintegrated disdain for
today's CIA, and you're much

446
00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:58,200
more on the military side. Did
you already have that kind of?

447
00:27:59,850 --> 00:28:04,050
No, that's a good point. Adam, I
eventually got to have disdain

448
00:28:04,050 --> 00:28:09,720
for the CIA after 911. For the
most part, the CIA to me, was

449
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,430
represented by people like your
uncle Don, Greg, or Jim Lilly,

450
00:28:14,430 --> 00:28:18,450
or many others, whom I knew. And
you know, I'm not going to say

451
00:28:18,450 --> 00:28:21,870
who they are, but who worked
with me in the State Department.

452
00:28:21,870 --> 00:28:25,230
And that went, that's what it
came down in and full blossom.

453
00:28:25,380 --> 00:28:30,240
In other words, when I came in,
I Eagleburger asked me, I want

454
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,300
you to work for Kissinger. And I
said, I'm not working for Henry

455
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:37,890
Kissinger said, why not? I said,
Well, he you know, I don't get

456
00:28:37,890 --> 00:28:42,750
along. I don't, I don't. I don't
respect him. I don't have really

457
00:28:42,750 --> 00:28:45,810
any appreciation for his
intellect. Remember, I was

458
00:28:45,810 --> 00:28:49,380
trained at MIT. And Henry was at
Harvard at that, that doesn't

459
00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:53,850
help does it? Well, it's not
only that, it's more than that.

460
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:59,340
It wasn't. It wasn't my sense of
honour to MIT. What it was, is I

461
00:28:59,340 --> 00:29:03,240
was trained in force structure
and deterrence theory by a man

462
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,360
who was far more important than
Henry Kissinger, and that was

463
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,830
built kaufen. And most people
didn't know that. And so at MIT,

464
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:15,930
we really had the nitty gritty
of combat issues to tactical,

465
00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:19,380
strategic. You know, I was there
with a bunch of guys who were in

466
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:22,620
the military, like myself, and
then went on through the

467
00:29:22,620 --> 00:29:26,850
military. So when I came in to
the State Department, I had a

468
00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:30,330
career fellowship from the
Council on Foreign Relations,

469
00:29:30,330 --> 00:29:33,870
which was very nice to me. And
they offered me the deputy

470
00:29:33,870 --> 00:29:36,990
assistant secretary rank, which
man, they really didn't know

471
00:29:36,990 --> 00:29:41,250
what to do with me, but they
wanted me to run certain things.

472
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,990
And it would, it would appear,
it was really ad hoc. So at the

473
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:49,980
same time, I had a relationship
with Langley, I understood them,

474
00:29:49,980 --> 00:29:54,510
they understood me. It was
informal, but, you know, they

475
00:29:54,510 --> 00:29:59,130
were like, colleagues. I had
other colleagues in the State

476
00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:03,030
Department and then I had
Military, the DIA, which I

477
00:30:03,030 --> 00:30:06,390
understood and ironically was
jumping the gun now they're

478
00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:11,340
always there when I when I
needed them oversee. So the real

479
00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:16,710
disdain came in not so much
beforehand. It came in after 911

480
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:22,260
When I knew that the agency had
really screwed up 10. And then

481
00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:25,590
you had all the other guys
there, Michael Hayden, I mean,

482
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:28,920
even though they were military,
they had no idea what they were

483
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,150
doing. And it was stupid enough
to create what I was teaching at

484
00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:36,180
Fort McNair, which was stand
down and false flags.

485
00:30:36,570 --> 00:30:39,060
So you were teaching this?

486
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,710
Well, yeah, I was teaching at
Fort McNair once a year toward

487
00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:47,430
college, and I was teaching, you
know, false flags, strategic

488
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:51,090
notions of how you go to war,
but with jumping the gun, so

489
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,890
that distain came in much later
on, when you had amateurs, you

490
00:30:55,890 --> 00:31:00,870
didn't have 10. It was not a
function of the CIA. Many of the

491
00:31:00,870 --> 00:31:03,630
others were not a function of
the CIA, and I can go through

492
00:31:03,630 --> 00:31:08,370
the whole list. And instead,
they were imposed by Bush, Jr, a

493
00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:14,430
moron, literally known as on his
committee to get him in and get

494
00:31:14,430 --> 00:31:18,750
elected. And I regret it that
day. But I since I worked for

495
00:31:18,750 --> 00:31:21,930
the old man, I understood where
the agency came in, and

496
00:31:21,930 --> 00:31:26,460
suddenly, they decided to create
a war. And since I know Paul, I

497
00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:30,060
knew Paul Wolfowitz, Richard
Pearl, and all these neocon

498
00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:33,660
Jews. I knew they had never
served, they had never really

499
00:31:33,660 --> 00:31:37,530
given to the country, and I knew
they created some nonsensical

500
00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:42,510
piece of paper with zombie Hala
Zod saying that America has to

501
00:31:42,510 --> 00:31:46,740
be great again, under Clinton,
and therefore Israel will be a

502
00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:50,400
pivot point in the Middle East.
And I said, this was the most

503
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,200
moronic, idiotic idea I've ever
heard of. But anybody who picked

504
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,990
it up was not only stupid, they
would have been incompetent and

505
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:58,650
criminal. So

506
00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:01,770
why did they want to do this?
What was what was the

507
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,290
every president wants to put a
landmark issue underneath his

508
00:32:07,290 --> 00:32:11,400
auspices, and most presidents,
most people don't realize really

509
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,850
can't do very much after 100
days, and the only thing they

510
00:32:14,850 --> 00:32:18,810
really can do is to go to war.
And in the case of Bush, Jr, who

511
00:32:18,810 --> 00:32:22,560
had no idea whatsoever, but I
knew Cheney, Cheney was a lot

512
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,270
smarter than Bush, much more
Machiavellian. And many of these

513
00:32:27,270 --> 00:32:32,220
guys Cheney, Rumsfeld, Hadley
and others, were trained by a

514
00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:36,420
man who was at the office now
now I'm jumping the gun of

515
00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:40,770
Office of net assessment by a
man called Andy Marshall. Now,

516
00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:45,780
Andy Marshall had trained at the
University of Chicago, he never

517
00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:49,350
served in World War Two said he
had a heart murmur, but he lived

518
00:32:49,350 --> 00:32:53,250
to the age of 99. I still think
he's alive. But he came up with

519
00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:57,810
a cockamamie idea and sold it or
these guys came up with it with

520
00:32:57,810 --> 00:33:01,050
Zalmay Hala, Zod and all the
boys out of the University of

521
00:33:01,050 --> 00:33:05,010
Chicago, who they were they were
trained in this another name by

522
00:33:05,010 --> 00:33:10,110
Wolf steder, who said that Pearl
Harbor was a false flag and a

523
00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:13,260
standout I mean, they wrote
about it. And then and then they

524
00:33:13,260 --> 00:33:16,050
wrote that we needed another
false flag and standout but they

525
00:33:16,050 --> 00:33:20,730
didn't call it that. So Andy
Marshall, Marshall, all of his

526
00:33:20,910 --> 00:33:26,040
do fights, Cheney, Rumsfeld, all
the morons. And the cowards I

527
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,970
mean, to me, Cheney, when I had
to deal with the generals, I

528
00:33:29,970 --> 00:33:33,210
asked all my generals around the
table, how many times that

529
00:33:33,210 --> 00:33:37,860
Cheney refused service? And they
went around? I said, once twice,

530
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:43,200
I say, No, no, it was 11 times.
And so the general said to me,

531
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,770
Wow, how did you get to ask?
Well, he didn't feel that

532
00:33:46,770 --> 00:33:50,820
Vietnam War was really to his
liking. So when I came in to the

533
00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:54,810
State Department, now we go back
to the 70s. I was a deputy

534
00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:58,020
assistant secretary with the
rank of Navy and basically

535
00:33:58,020 --> 00:34:01,290
Eagleburger. His first
assignment to me was to evacuate

536
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,790
Vietnam and literally deal with
our ambassadors, Graham Martin,

537
00:34:06,270 --> 00:34:11,160
and Ellsworth bunker. And that
was a problem. Because one of

538
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:18,030
the things that I saw and it was
clear in that Ken Burns series

539
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,000
was that grant Martin and
Ellsworth bumped about gray

540
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,510
Martin in particular, was
totally focused on the notion

541
00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:29,850
that we had not lost the war.
Now, this is where the agency

542
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,090
which had initiated the war, but
was smart enough to put in guys

543
00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:36,450
like Richard Armitage and
others, whom I kind of knew on

544
00:34:36,450 --> 00:34:40,710
the side, basically said, look,
we've lost the war, and we got

545
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:45,270
to get out of here and correctly
depicts how we did not

546
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:48,780
understand what was happening.
Then, of course, your uncle was

547
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,830
a part of that Don Gray, and he
explained it, but the

548
00:34:52,830 --> 00:34:55,530
ambassador's didn't want to
believe it. And so that was my

549
00:34:55,530 --> 00:34:58,530
first assignment with gray
Martin. I don't want to go into

550
00:34:58,530 --> 00:35:02,880
detail as to you know what I had
to do. Unfortunately, he ended

551
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,770
up to have a sad career. My
second assignment came almost as

552
00:35:07,770 --> 00:35:17,640
an ad hoc situation where there
was a gentleman by the name of

553
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,470
our Father who decided to take
one of our ambassadors hostage.

554
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,810
And that was the PLO, and we had
what was called the office to

555
00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:31,800
combat terrorism, but it really
wasn't all that effective. So my

556
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,530
job was to reorganize the
office, create a policy, where

557
00:35:37,530 --> 00:35:42,240
we could effectively take out
hostages, and in that particular

558
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:47,880
case, it happened to the
serendipitous. 17 students from

559
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:54,000
Stanford had gone to Tanzania,
under the auspices of the famous

560
00:35:54,330 --> 00:35:58,380
self aggrandizing individual
Jane Goodell. And,

561
00:35:58,860 --> 00:36:01,650
unfortunately, Jane, the gal
doesn't want to really explain

562
00:36:01,650 --> 00:36:03,360
how much of a coward she was.

563
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,070
I mean, Jane Goodell, the
gorilla lady,

564
00:36:06,180 --> 00:36:10,740
Jane Goodell and a husband both
work kind of miscreant, and

565
00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:15,300
basically what they have done.
They had told the absolve

566
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:19,200
themselves of any responsibility
for the 17 Stanford students who

567
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,640
were taken hostage by the
Tanzanian Liberation Army. And I

568
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,480
never forgot that Larry said,
get into that negotiation.

569
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,810
Just need a little a little
background. Were they there with

570
00:36:30,810 --> 00:36:32,430
her the 17 students?

571
00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:38,760
There I think under Dr. borns
auspices, study, chimpanzees are

572
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,510
monkeys. I mean, I really
didn't, you know, know, at that

573
00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:45,990
time, who Jane Goodell was, but
subsequently, I found that she

574
00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:50,610
was a very self aggrandizing,
you know, cowardly individual,

575
00:36:50,610 --> 00:36:53,220
and she could sue me, I don't
particularly care. But that's

576
00:36:53,220 --> 00:36:57,780
exactly what happened. And we
took it over. And then Stanford,

577
00:36:58,170 --> 00:37:03,570
really didn't know what to do.
And so I said to Larry, I need

578
00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:07,440
to have a policy which I
concocted at that moment, where

579
00:37:08,010 --> 00:37:13,680
we can basically take care of
humanitarian concerns, meaning

580
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,980
that I can get the hostages out.
But I have to be able to pay the

581
00:37:20,070 --> 00:37:22,140
a terrorist, so called
terrorists,

582
00:37:22,170 --> 00:37:25,410
which is something we're not
supposed to do. Right.

583
00:37:25,470 --> 00:37:29,520
But from the very beginning, I
could not afford to allow 17

584
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,090
young kids from Stanford, and I
didn't know very much about

585
00:37:33,090 --> 00:37:37,140
Stanford then, or any university
on the west coast to allow them

586
00:37:37,140 --> 00:37:41,370
to get executed. So basically,
what happened is one of the

587
00:37:41,370 --> 00:37:45,450
fathers came out and provided
the money and, and these kids

588
00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:49,440
were released. So Larry said to
me, why don't you take over the

589
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,290
office to combat terrorism, but
why don't you also look at the

590
00:37:52,290 --> 00:37:56,940
office of medicine since you're
a doctor. And subsequently would

591
00:37:56,940 --> 00:38:01,080
happen, I became a das for
management. And not only did I

592
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,990
get into terrorism,
counterterrorism at this very

593
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:07,920
early stage, but I also got into
the business of really working

594
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,550
with physicians overseas and
realizing that we were spending

595
00:38:11,580 --> 00:38:16,740
a lot of money bringing back our
Foreign Service officers who had

596
00:38:16,740 --> 00:38:21,690
alcoholism, or drug dependency.
And part of that was both

597
00:38:21,690 --> 00:38:25,830
personality oriented, but it was
also socialization. And we had

598
00:38:25,830 --> 00:38:29,070
very good Foreign Service
officers, but it costs us the

599
00:38:29,070 --> 00:38:32,550
fortune to bring back these
people. And eventually, some of

600
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:36,300
them we would lose, literally,
they would commit suicide, and

601
00:38:36,330 --> 00:38:39,480
we weren't able to treat and so
the first thing that I did, when

602
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,930
I came into the office of
Madison was I looked at the list

603
00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:46,500
of psychiatrist all of whom were
psychoanalysts. And I

604
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:47,670
immediately fired them.

605
00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:53,910
You were pretty much developing
a field here. Were there any or

606
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:58,170
any peers that you had in this
psychological department? Or in

607
00:38:58,170 --> 00:38:59,160
the field that that all?

608
00:38:59,580 --> 00:39:04,110
Yes, actually, I was not the new
one. I actually had founded that

609
00:39:04,110 --> 00:39:08,100
with all due respect to Harold
Lasswell, who wrote in 1926,

610
00:39:08,490 --> 00:39:10,890
about psychiatry and
personality, and I'm really

611
00:39:10,890 --> 00:39:14,850
based it on his experience at
St. Elizabeth. And then

612
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,870
eventually I did have appear in
the CIA, I think I can talk

613
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:23,460
about him, Jerry Post who did
some brilliant psychological

614
00:39:23,460 --> 00:39:27,030
profiles. Now you have to
understand or your audience has

615
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:30,960
to understand one thing and I
will go backwards. Now. The CIA

616
00:39:30,990 --> 00:39:34,560
or the forerunner of the CIA was
the OSS and the forerunner of

617
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,240
the OSS were people who Walter
lacquer, while Bill Donovan who

618
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:43,920
was a military officer, but
brought together all the people

619
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,490
from Yale and particularly the
white Anglo Saxon Protestants

620
00:39:47,490 --> 00:39:51,390
from Yale and elsewhere, but
what he emphasized was the

621
00:39:51,390 --> 00:39:54,810
importance of psychoanalytical
theory as it was applied to

622
00:39:54,810 --> 00:40:00,630
anthropology and political
science. And so I was a An heir

623
00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:04,980
to that. So for example, during
the OSS, one of the great

624
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:09,090
individuals, there was Ruth
Benedict, who applied

625
00:40:09,090 --> 00:40:12,240
psychoanalytical theory to
anthropology. She wrote

626
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:17,190
chrysanthemum in the sword. As a
result of that, she was able to

627
00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:20,880
predict the fact that Douglas
MacArthur would have to deal

628
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,900
with Emperor Hirohito, as the
leader of Japan, of course,

629
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:29,100
MacArthur was above him. But at
that time in the 40s, a week

630
00:40:29,130 --> 00:40:32,130
before the end of the war, there
was a question as to whether we

631
00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:35,280
should get rid of hero heat or
not. And she predicted that we

632
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,360
needed to have Hirohito then.
There were also other individual

633
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,600
who are psychoanalytically
trained Walter lacquer, who

634
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,960
wrote about the analysis of
Hitler's mind and when that was

635
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:49,620
released, I mean, now it's a
real treasure, of understanding

636
00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:53,370
how Hitler really performed and
what he would do under various

637
00:40:53,370 --> 00:40:57,840
circumstances. And it was
brilliant work. And those people

638
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:03,510
and cluding, Julia Childs, Greta
Garbo, Hedy Lamarr, who actually

639
00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:07,230
not only was a famous actress,
and beautiful, but she was also

640
00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:11,670
the mother of
telecommunications, working with

641
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:17,610
others in the OSS. So the OSS
really started around the notion

642
00:41:17,610 --> 00:41:20,520
of psychiatry and
psychoanalysis, and its

643
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:26,400
application to national theory,
and to theory of nation state

644
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,960
behavior. So I was really the
recipient of a lot of lot of

645
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,700
work and brilliant work that was
done by Everett Hagen, and many

646
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:41,310
others, Lucien PI on China, and
many, many others who had

647
00:41:41,310 --> 00:41:46,170
graduated from the OSS in the
CIA, and literally came back

648
00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:50,640
into MIT. So I was not the
inventor of all of this, I was

649
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,780
probably the first applicant,
who really applied to Harvard at

650
00:41:54,780 --> 00:41:58,770
one time at MIT, at the same
time to come in as a political

651
00:41:58,770 --> 00:42:03,090
psychiatrist. But there was many
who preceded me, and we were

652
00:42:03,090 --> 00:42:09,030
already in the CIA. So the CIA
understood this intuitively.

653
00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:15,450
What I did subsequently, to that
I went into use it for

654
00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:20,010
counterterrorism. And as I
explained, and for other issues

655
00:42:20,010 --> 00:42:24,480
like regime change, that became
a lot more sophisticated,

656
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,290
because as I began to understand
the Soviet Union, and

657
00:42:28,290 --> 00:42:32,790
commoditizing, the Christians, I
also began to see the weaknesses

658
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:37,890
in the late 70s of the Soviet
Union. In other words, you'd see

659
00:42:37,890 --> 00:42:41,010
men already drunk by eight or
nine in the morning, and I was

660
00:42:41,010 --> 00:42:44,160
saying, Oh, my God, this is
amazing. That wasn't just a few,

661
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,790
it was quite a lot. And then I
would, on my own go to the

662
00:42:47,790 --> 00:42:52,050
various factories that were
there in Moscow and around

663
00:42:52,050 --> 00:42:55,740
Moscow, though I was limited in
what I could do, and see that

664
00:42:55,740 --> 00:42:59,550
they were really doing make
work. And ironically, I worked

665
00:42:59,550 --> 00:43:02,970
very well with the KGB,
contrary, the common image of

666
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:07,140
you know, American shooting KGB
and vice versa. It wasn't like

667
00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:11,580
that. The KGB would follow me
and in times, where they had

668
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:14,730
personality, personal problems,
I would say to them, how's your

669
00:43:14,730 --> 00:43:18,900
son said, I need money for the
antibiotic, and I would give him

670
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:22,440
money. Right? And, and it was
that kind of personal

671
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,910
relationship where they would
allow me to go to Leningrad and

672
00:43:26,910 --> 00:43:30,690
St. Petersburg, on a train by
myself knowing fully well that

673
00:43:30,690 --> 00:43:33,870
I'm not going to play games in
the Soviet Union. But at the

674
00:43:33,870 --> 00:43:37,530
same time, they understood that
I was accumulating information

675
00:43:37,860 --> 00:43:40,860
that I subsequently used at the
RAND Corporation. Now I'm

676
00:43:40,860 --> 00:43:43,650
jumping to take down the Soviet
Union.

677
00:43:44,250 --> 00:43:46,650
Can I step back for just one
second, I just want to go back

678
00:43:46,650 --> 00:43:50,820
to Hedy Lamarr, and Julia Child,
because it's pretty well

679
00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:53,850
established what they were
doing. I don't think people

680
00:43:53,850 --> 00:43:57,630
realize it anymore. Think about
probably miss the revelations.

681
00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:00,900
But were they actively, I guess,
two questions. Were they

682
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:06,330
actively working in
psychological operations towards

683
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,130
an audience or?

684
00:44:08,850 --> 00:44:13,230
No, it's a good question. And
they were actually awkward is in

685
00:44:13,230 --> 00:44:17,850
what we would say. Now the CIA
and case officers, Julia Childs

686
00:44:17,850 --> 00:44:23,100
worked with a gentleman named
Swift. And she was the handler

687
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:29,430
for Hachi men, really China. So
the notion that whole Chi Minh

688
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:33,540
was anti American was absurd,
because he loved America and he

689
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:38,610
loves cooking. Yeah, well. Well,
you could say that Adam,

690
00:44:38,610 --> 00:44:43,140
actually he wasn't the cook. He
was the dishwasher, in New York

691
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:48,030
and in London. But all of his
intellectual narratives came out

692
00:44:48,030 --> 00:44:52,050
of the United States and Abraham
Lincoln. At the same time, Hedy

693
00:44:52,050 --> 00:44:55,140
Lamarr, whom I didn't know what
was beautiful, had gotten

694
00:44:55,140 --> 00:44:57,870
herself involved. her former
husband had worked with the

695
00:44:57,870 --> 00:45:01,770
Nazis. She understood what they
do. What the transfer technology

696
00:45:01,770 --> 00:45:05,670
was and she eventually got into
telecommunications. The ones who

697
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:09,030
I knew were particularly
operative or specific to

698
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:13,350
operations because of my
operative who I had in

699
00:45:13,350 --> 00:45:16,290
Intelligence and Research a very
bright man by the name of Phil

700
00:45:16,290 --> 00:45:21,960
Stoddard who ran Greta Garbo. He
ran because she was Swedish and

701
00:45:22,350 --> 00:45:26,100
one of the issues during World
War Two contrary to what they

702
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:28,950
liked to talk about the wall and
burden this in the Wallenberg

703
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:32,280
that and how great he was to the
Jews. Of course, that was a

704
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,540
storyline that was contrary to
the real storyline of the

705
00:45:36,540 --> 00:45:40,260
Wallenberg they both the uncle
and the father, who were pro

706
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:45,330
Nazis and funded the Nazi war
machinery, as did Sweden. But

707
00:45:45,330 --> 00:45:49,620
Sweden was supposed to be
neutral. And so getting a Greta

708
00:45:49,620 --> 00:45:54,930
Garbo along with Niels Bohr, we
basically said to Alfonse, the

709
00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:58,710
King, who is German that if you
don't maintain your neutrality,

710
00:45:58,710 --> 00:46:02,940
you will go to prison, as we
said to both the Father and the

711
00:46:02,940 --> 00:46:03,330
uncle,

712
00:46:03,929 --> 00:46:06,359
and how was Garbo used as an
asset in that?

713
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:10,620
Well, she spoke Swedish, I can't
directly tell you that it was

714
00:46:10,620 --> 00:46:14,820
told to me because she was very
famous. She was silent. She was

715
00:46:14,820 --> 00:46:18,990
highly disagreed. And she, I
believe, went with Niels Bohr to

716
00:46:18,990 --> 00:46:24,540
Sweden to explain it to them
offline. And as a result, I

717
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:29,940
think are now being I'm jumping
the gun that the so called Son,

718
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:32,910
the Wallenberg was sacrificed to
say, oh, yeah, well, let's get

719
00:46:32,910 --> 00:46:36,420
the storyline where he saved the
lives of Jews. So that the

720
00:46:36,420 --> 00:46:40,410
notion of what really happened
World War Two, and what covers

721
00:46:40,620 --> 00:46:44,490
whether the story covers are
totally different. And that's

722
00:46:44,490 --> 00:46:48,540
pretty much what you began, I
began to realize in terms of the

723
00:46:48,540 --> 00:46:52,980
history and what the Hidden
History was, and how nation

724
00:46:52,980 --> 00:46:57,420
states that will collaborators
really go back and try to

725
00:46:57,420 --> 00:47:01,890
explain what they did, for
example, the Anne Frank story,

726
00:47:01,890 --> 00:47:05,610
that's Apsara. It was a
nonsensical story. And, you

727
00:47:05,610 --> 00:47:08,640
know, they say the father wrote
with a ballpoint pen, and he

728
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:09,180
was, yeah, there's

729
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:13,080
a lot of discrepancies, even in
recent history about, well, it

730
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:13,320
was

731
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,950
absurd, the two cities, right,
the reason and they don't talk

732
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:19,590
about it is that because it's

733
00:47:19,590 --> 00:47:22,890
the third rail, you can't talk
about Jews, unless you are one.

734
00:47:23,369 --> 00:47:27,029
That's correct. And then that
way, if you happen to me, this

735
00:47:27,029 --> 00:47:30,089
is good. That's right. And I
happen to be a Jew who can be

736
00:47:30,089 --> 00:47:33,929
quite critical as American Jews
or Israel and at the same time,

737
00:47:33,959 --> 00:47:38,249
maintain, maintain my identity
and be proud of it. But the key

738
00:47:38,249 --> 00:47:41,969
there was, I said, Something is
wrong in Holland. And

739
00:47:43,050 --> 00:47:44,970
we're having grown up there. I
concur.

740
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,020
Well, yeah, but you saw it
firsthand when I saw it was

741
00:47:49,020 --> 00:47:53,010
secondhand. And I said, the
greatest percentage of Jews

742
00:47:53,010 --> 00:47:57,780
killed was in Poland, number
one, by the Germans. However,

743
00:47:57,810 --> 00:48:02,370
the second greatest percentage
of Jews killed was 93% versus

744
00:48:02,370 --> 00:48:06,660
96, and Poland, but they were no
Nazi officers in German in

745
00:48:06,660 --> 00:48:10,920
Ireland. And it was done by the
Dutch. And also at the same time

746
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,160
years later, when I write wanted
to write about Colin and its

747
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,790
collaboration in World War Two
we're talking about as a NSBE.

748
00:48:17,790 --> 00:48:23,370
Now, that's correct. Yeah. Yeah.
And and, and so what happened

749
00:48:23,370 --> 00:48:27,210
is, you know, Beatrix, ran, the
Germans came in and that the

750
00:48:27,210 --> 00:48:29,970
German the Dutch said, Oh, we
didn't understand we thought

751
00:48:29,970 --> 00:48:33,330
they were speaking Dutch. When
the when the Nazis were paired

752
00:48:33,330 --> 00:48:38,190
to the to Rotterdam, which is
all nonsense. And the Dutch were

753
00:48:38,190 --> 00:48:42,570
really culpable. So they came up
with this nonsensical story of a

754
00:48:42,570 --> 00:48:45,330
girl who was hidden and blah,
blah, blah,

755
00:48:45,330 --> 00:48:49,530
would you say this is one of the
that story in particular was one

756
00:48:49,530 --> 00:48:54,300
of the longest lasting greatest
psychological operations ever?

757
00:48:54,929 --> 00:48:58,409
Well, yes, I would say Holland
went out of its way to create

758
00:48:58,409 --> 00:49:03,989
this absurd facade, that they
were free of any guilt or any

759
00:49:03,989 --> 00:49:07,439
collaboration, most of them are
collaborators. I mean, that was

760
00:49:07,439 --> 00:49:12,869
very clear. The Germans didn't
need to have Nazi enforcers the

761
00:49:12,869 --> 00:49:15,719
Dutch were more than happy to do
what the Germans didn't do. As

762
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,439
matter of fact, the Germans was
stung as to what the Dutch did.

763
00:49:19,439 --> 00:49:22,889
And that's not only the Dutch,
the French, when the French

764
00:49:22,889 --> 00:49:27,479
police rounded up 76,000 Jews
who are in a stadium, the

765
00:49:27,479 --> 00:49:30,509
Germans were totally taken
aback. The Nazis said, we didn't

766
00:49:30,509 --> 00:49:34,799
order you to take the 76,000 are
women and children. So the

767
00:49:34,799 --> 00:49:38,429
storylines get totally
distorted. But let's go back to

768
00:49:38,429 --> 00:49:43,319
the major storyline. But because
of this discrepancy, I began to

769
00:49:43,319 --> 00:49:47,369
realize that the national
character of countries was still

770
00:49:47,399 --> 00:49:51,989
running very deep, but like the
people at MIT or the CIA, you

771
00:49:51,989 --> 00:49:53,939
have to study the specifics

772
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,250
of our seconds. Sorry, I'm
sorry, you can continue

773
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,730
But is that? Is that a
conditioning? Yes,

774
00:50:03,060 --> 00:50:06,420
yes. Yes. It's Pavlovian, you're
doing well.

775
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:08,250
Am I okay?

776
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,930
I mean, am I gonna get ahead?
Only if you sit up properly?

777
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:19,020
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. It's fun.
You're good man. So, basically,

778
00:50:19,470 --> 00:50:23,880
let's move forward. So you know
that what I call the manifest

779
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,450
story is usually the nonsense
story or the bullshit. The

780
00:50:27,450 --> 00:50:31,980
latent story is that story which
history has to really inspect.

781
00:50:32,220 --> 00:50:35,490
And it's true of America that
mean, you know, we say we want

782
00:50:35,490 --> 00:50:39,570
to World War Two, I don't
minimize what the heart soldiers

783
00:50:39,570 --> 00:50:43,260
who fought both in Japan and in
Europe, but it was really the

784
00:50:43,260 --> 00:50:46,500
Soviet Union that won World War
Two losing about 20 to 30

785
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:50,580
million men. By 1943. We
couldn't, we couldn't have done

786
00:50:50,580 --> 00:50:54,540
it without them. No, there's no
way. I mean, even General Omar

787
00:50:54,540 --> 00:50:57,960
Bradley and George Marshall, who
added great respect for said we

788
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,630
couldn't have done this, and we
couldn't have entered the war

789
00:51:00,630 --> 00:51:05,400
till 1943, without the Soviets.
But again, our Presidents Obama

790
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,940
didn't show up for the 75th
anniversary of Vladimir of the

791
00:51:08,940 --> 00:51:12,600
Soviet Union. And, you know,
subsequently Do I have any

792
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,500
animosity to the Soviet you
know, and and when I, when we

793
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:20,310
took down the Soviet Union, I
explained to our policymakers

794
00:51:20,310 --> 00:51:23,640
and others in the intelligence
community, remember, all I did

795
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,120
was to change the deck chairs
and make sure that the guys who

796
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,480
were running the system, were no
longer there, but don't in any

797
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,140
way think that you took over
Russia, and that we defeated

798
00:51:34,140 --> 00:51:37,860
Russia, on the contrary, and
what happened then, and I was

799
00:51:37,860 --> 00:51:41,370
not involved in this. And I, you
know, I don't blame anybody.

800
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:45,150
Yeltsin was put in power. Now,
for the most part, most of the

801
00:51:45,150 --> 00:51:50,220
leaders of Russia or foreign
countries. I won't say we urge

802
00:51:50,220 --> 00:51:54,630
them, but we certainly have a
hand in it. And I don't blame

803
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:57,630
anybody in the agency or
whatever intelligence unit was

804
00:51:57,630 --> 00:52:01,890
involved. But Yeltsin was put in
and I wasn't that time, but he

805
00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:05,640
was a drunk. It was a total
disaster. And it was clear that

806
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:11,670
Russia was falling apart under
his auspices. And so we had then

807
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:15,690
that revolution, and we had
Gorbachev and under Gorbachev, I

808
00:52:15,690 --> 00:52:19,440
had a clear idea in the Reagan
administration, how we could

809
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,390
approach him with Reagan and
your your fellow countrymen and

810
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:27,540
the intelligence community. At
that time, there was a gentleman

811
00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:30,360
named Fritz airmass, who would
worked on the national

812
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,700
intelligence office. And what I
prepared for them was a strategy

813
00:52:35,790 --> 00:52:39,390
paper where you had an opening
movement, a middle movement, and

814
00:52:39,390 --> 00:52:43,740
then movement between Reagan and
Gorbachev. And I knew Reagan was

815
00:52:43,740 --> 00:52:47,490
very terse, Gorbachev was an
engineer who was very

816
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:52,350
loquacious. So we had a method
by which we could deal with

817
00:52:52,350 --> 00:52:57,420
Gorbachev in an negotiations.
And that's what I would prepare

818
00:52:57,420 --> 00:53:02,310
in the Reagan administration.
But before that, I am going out

819
00:53:02,310 --> 00:53:05,310
of sequence, but I'm saying to
you that the appearance of

820
00:53:05,310 --> 00:53:08,970
Vladimir Putin was severely
sanctioned by us.

821
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:12,660
Well, let's just stop there for
a second because what I'm just

822
00:53:12,660 --> 00:53:17,610
listening to you, what was
unfolding, was the realization

823
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:22,290
by the intelligence community
and military intelligence, that

824
00:53:22,290 --> 00:53:25,620
we could pretty much do whatever
we wanted, we could tell the

825
00:53:25,650 --> 00:53:28,410
American public whatever we
wanted, they would not be the

826
00:53:28,410 --> 00:53:32,850
same thing. And it sounds like
this period in time, they were

827
00:53:32,850 --> 00:53:36,030
so cocky about it, like they got
out of control, we can do

828
00:53:36,030 --> 00:53:37,050
anything we want.

829
00:53:37,619 --> 00:53:42,329
Well, I think you're right. I
think I, the point where I would

830
00:53:42,329 --> 00:53:46,019
say it's a bit different is the
fact I don't think we would

831
00:53:46,019 --> 00:53:49,709
cavalier about it. I think
whoever was involved, they had

832
00:53:49,709 --> 00:53:53,129
the best intentions, and they
were picking whoever they

833
00:53:53,129 --> 00:53:56,849
thought was appropriate. I was
not in that selection process.

834
00:53:57,149 --> 00:54:00,419
But it was clear to me
subsequently, that there were

835
00:54:00,419 --> 00:54:03,659
mistakes made, you know, like
any situation, you don't really

836
00:54:03,659 --> 00:54:05,849
know what's going to happen
until it happens.

837
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:10,980
But, but the morality, because
OSS days, I understand, you

838
00:54:10,980 --> 00:54:12,990
know, we're doing stuff covert,
we're still jumping out of

839
00:54:12,990 --> 00:54:16,410
airplanes, we're saving the
world. But then you get to this

840
00:54:16,410 --> 00:54:19,320
point where there's just no,
maybe I'm mistaken. This just

841
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,840
seems like there's no morality
of what's being done.

842
00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:26,519
I wouldn't say that, I think
with all due respect to those

843
00:54:26,519 --> 00:54:29,789
whom I worked with, both in
military and intelligence and

844
00:54:29,789 --> 00:54:34,469
the CIA, there was always a
moral cover to it, if anything,

845
00:54:34,499 --> 00:54:39,479
it was almost too moralistic
because, you know, the notion

846
00:54:39,479 --> 00:54:42,269
that we're going to bring
freedom and we're going to bring

847
00:54:42,269 --> 00:54:46,499
transparency to Russia or to any
country was self delusion

848
00:54:46,559 --> 00:54:48,959
running. And I would say to
them, Look, guys, you know, we

849
00:54:48,959 --> 00:54:53,459
can't do it. I'm in the business
of people and nations, but I'm

850
00:54:53,459 --> 00:54:56,909
not in the business of changing
their behavior, irrespective of

851
00:54:56,909 --> 00:54:59,669
what you think. They said, but
you're a psychiatrist that said,

852
00:54:59,669 --> 00:55:03,359
Yeah, but I know my limits, and
I can't do what you guys think

853
00:55:03,359 --> 00:55:07,649
you can do. And I think that was
where we made mistakes. It

854
00:55:07,649 --> 00:55:11,339
wasn't the cockiness, it was
really the fact that we wanted

855
00:55:11,339 --> 00:55:16,319
to bring a what we were enjoying
here overseas to a country that

856
00:55:16,319 --> 00:55:21,929
had been under repression, and a
czar or Stalin or dictator for

857
00:55:21,929 --> 00:55:26,249
most of their life. So Vladimir
Putin made a lot of sense. I

858
00:55:26,249 --> 00:55:30,269
didn't know him but ironically,
when I was in Lubyanka, when I

859
00:55:30,269 --> 00:55:34,319
was in Jersey Square where I
personally visited the KGB

860
00:55:34,319 --> 00:55:37,499
headquarters before he was even
there a couple of years before

861
00:55:38,549 --> 00:55:42,179
the KGB would say to me, what do
you think is going to be our

862
00:55:42,179 --> 00:55:45,689
next leader? The Moscow people
didn't know. But I had a pretty

863
00:55:45,839 --> 00:55:49,259
good idea. I said, you have a
guy from East Germany, who's an

864
00:55:49,259 --> 00:55:52,589
East German intelligence. He
wasn't Stasi. He's Russian, but

865
00:55:52,589 --> 00:55:57,389
I think he's very talented. And
his name is Putin, Vladimir.

866
00:55:57,419 --> 00:56:02,279
They say who? And they did now.
And I mean, it's again, you, you

867
00:56:02,279 --> 00:56:05,969
don't have this notion that
everything works, you know, with

868
00:56:05,969 --> 00:56:07,979
the touch of that with the push
of a button.

869
00:56:08,190 --> 00:56:12,180
Right. So Putin was a
suggestion, he seemed like a

870
00:56:12,330 --> 00:56:16,530
good idea, which inherently
means we'd have contact with him

871
00:56:16,770 --> 00:56:19,590
in that regard. Still, he didn't
go rogue or anything.

872
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,710
No. And contrary to what
everybody's saying, Now, which

873
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:26,340
is nonsensical, you know, does
Russia affect our elections,

874
00:56:26,700 --> 00:56:29,250
nothing affects our election,
the only people who have been

875
00:56:29,250 --> 00:56:32,760
affected our elections are our
own politicians, and the people

876
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,180
who work the dipole machinery
and know how to make it corrupt.

877
00:56:36,570 --> 00:56:39,690
We're very good at screwing
ourselves. The Russians don't

878
00:56:39,690 --> 00:56:44,130
need to do that, whether Putin
or any of that talk to Jared

879
00:56:44,130 --> 00:56:47,250
Kushner, I talked to Trump, we
talked to Mickey Mouse is not

880
00:56:47,250 --> 00:56:50,970
relevant here. We have more
corruption at the local and the

881
00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:55,080
state and the federal level than
anyone else. So it's irrelevant.

882
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,950
And Vladimir Putin knows that he
makes no pretense and he kind of

883
00:56:58,950 --> 00:57:02,070
is enjoying that. And I'm
absolving him of that. But

884
00:57:02,070 --> 00:57:04,500
that's not the issue that's
really at hand. The issue at

885
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:07,680
hand is Russia is always been a
strong ally to the United

886
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,010
States, we'll always be an ally,
because our intelligence

887
00:57:11,010 --> 00:57:15,300
services work very closely
together. And the Russians have

888
00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:18,390
been very helpful in Central
Asia with the issue of

889
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:22,650
counterterrorism as we've been
helpful to them, along with our

890
00:57:22,650 --> 00:57:26,280
military intelligence, CIA, but
let me go a little bit

891
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,240
backwards. So under the Carter
administration, I was asked by

892
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,690
Eagleburger, he was the only one
who remained but he was a career

893
00:57:33,690 --> 00:57:36,210
Foreign Service officer, an
excellent man became our

894
00:57:36,210 --> 00:57:40,470
Ambassador to Yugoslavia. And
then I had a very nice gentleman

895
00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:44,250
come in, who was at that time,
my boss named Ben read a

896
00:57:44,250 --> 00:57:49,080
mainline Philadelphia family
lovely. And and I really enjoyed

897
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,360
both Ben Reed and his boss,
Cyrus Vance. And they kind of

898
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,030
understood what I was about.
They were lawyers, and they

899
00:57:57,030 --> 00:58:02,340
understood well, a psychiatrist
has some impact here. And what

900
00:58:02,340 --> 00:58:06,510
happened, domestically really
changed the course of my own

901
00:58:06,510 --> 00:58:11,490
career and the course of how I
got involved in in overseas

902
00:58:11,490 --> 00:58:16,170
issues. And let me tell you what
happened. In 1977, or 78, Jimmy

903
00:58:16,170 --> 00:58:21,150
Carter had created a situation
where three different buildings

904
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:26,100
were being held by a gentleman
named by a gentleman who was

905
00:58:26,100 --> 00:58:30,990
part of what was called 150,
Muslim, Black Muslims. And the

906
00:58:30,990 --> 00:58:35,580
reason he held 150 hostages and
three buildings, and he shot a

907
00:58:35,580 --> 00:58:40,380
couple people, was the fact that
he had seen his child being

908
00:58:40,380 --> 00:58:44,970
drowned by Farrakhan and the
black Muslims. So it was an

909
00:58:44,970 --> 00:58:49,650
internal fight between the black
Muslims and a sect called Anafi

910
00:58:49,650 --> 00:58:53,550
Muslim. Now, I was not privy to
the beginning of the situation

911
00:58:53,550 --> 00:58:57,570
of the hostage siege. And a
gentleman by the name of Earl

912
00:58:57,570 --> 00:59:00,360
Silbert, whom I knew and was
friendly with had been the

913
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:05,910
prosecutor. He come in and this
was after about 10 hours of of

914
00:59:06,810 --> 00:59:10,860
where's the taking place in
Washington DC, okay, right in

915
00:59:10,860 --> 00:59:15,300
three buildings, the mosque,
City Hall, and B'nai Brith. So

916
00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:19,530
it was about 100 hostages or 150
hostages and B'nai Brith, about

917
00:59:19,530 --> 00:59:26,100
150 hostages in the mosque, and
another 50 or 70 in at City

918
00:59:26,100 --> 00:59:30,000
Hall, along with Mayor Berry and
people were killed. This was a

919
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:35,070
serious situation. But the FBI
had been in charge of this and

920
00:59:35,100 --> 00:59:38,970
apparently they really screwed
up, their profile was wrong.

921
00:59:39,300 --> 00:59:41,760
They didn't really know what
they were doing. So Earl called

922
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:46,020
me up about midnight and I came
down and my usual uniform for

923
00:59:46,020 --> 00:59:51,090
hostage situation, which is blue
jeans and a T shirt. And I saw

924
00:59:51,810 --> 00:59:56,280
three different ambassadors
sitting there. One was a Jakob

925
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,970
Kahn, who was the general from
Pakistan a brilliant man i

926
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,410
artist she is a Hedy also
excellent from IE Ron, and go

927
01:00:04,410 --> 01:00:08,010
ball from Ambassador go above
from Egypt, all three

928
01:00:08,010 --> 01:00:12,690
intelligent, very learned
individuals, and they were doing

929
01:00:12,690 --> 01:00:17,700
nothing there. So immediately
thanks to my background and as a

930
01:00:17,700 --> 01:00:22,110
fiction writer and as a play
writer, I saw exactly what was

931
01:00:22,110 --> 01:00:26,490
missing. I needed to have a
voice which was not an American

932
01:00:26,490 --> 01:00:31,830
voice, but basically had a more
a Quranic overtone to it. So I

933
01:00:31,830 --> 01:00:35,970
started some Egyptian guy. Well,
not only the Egyptian, I had

934
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,500
Iranian, I had a Shia, Sunni,
and I had a Pakistani who was

935
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:43,590
really quite formidable. And
even though I didn't know the

936
01:00:43,590 --> 01:00:47,610
Koran, I knew the Quran had to
have some notion of generosity,

937
01:00:47,790 --> 01:00:51,930
and compassion. So I sat with
the three ambassadors, and I

938
01:00:51,930 --> 01:00:55,560
said, Okay, I'm going to be the
terrorist, police. That was his

939
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,670
name. And I understood what he
did, and and I, and I had

940
01:00:59,670 --> 01:01:03,120
empathy for it. I didn't agree
with his killing, but that

941
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,660
nevertheless, was the secondary
issue. So I basically talked to

942
01:01:06,660 --> 01:01:10,770
the three ambassadors as if they
were police. And then I trained

943
01:01:10,770 --> 01:01:14,520
them to talk on the phone, I
never got on the phone, the

944
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,240
person who was in charge and did
a brilliant job was a policeman

945
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,320
by the name of colonnade of the
DC Police Department. And he was

946
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,160
the voice and in turn, I would
give him strategies and tactics.

947
01:01:26,490 --> 01:01:30,630
And in turn, we would send the
ambassadors to see colleagues

948
01:01:30,630 --> 01:01:34,740
and talk about chronic issues,
and you have to release the

949
01:01:35,010 --> 01:01:40,200
hostages. Well be it as it made
it 36 hours later. And after I

950
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,650
had been ordered by Jimmy
Carter, the president to stand

951
01:01:43,650 --> 01:01:47,460
down and leave, I refused. And
that was my first act of

952
01:01:47,940 --> 01:01:52,080
insubordination, possibly
treason? And the answer was no,

953
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,900
I will not leave these hostages.
I'm a physician.

954
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,540
What was the what was the plan
when they said, a board? What

955
01:01:57,540 --> 01:01:59,190
were the what was the idea just
because

956
01:01:59,310 --> 01:02:03,120
the FBI had failed already,
after eight hours, and they felt

957
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,550
that this was really not going
to go anywhere, and that it

958
01:02:05,550 --> 01:02:10,110
would be a disaster anyway. And
he felt, you know, let it

959
01:02:10,140 --> 01:02:14,280
aboard, and there was nothing
else to do. So I was ordered to

960
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,790
stand down. Now I was a military
officer, I was a Das. And I'm a

961
01:02:17,790 --> 01:02:21,330
physician. So I quickly switched
to the role of saying, as a

962
01:02:21,330 --> 01:02:25,110
military officer, you can you
can put me on for treason as a

963
01:02:25,110 --> 01:02:29,520
Das, you can fire me but as an
MD, I'm gonna stay here. So I

964
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,850
really don't care what the
President has to say. And for

965
01:02:32,850 --> 01:02:38,220
the next 10 hours, we basically
worked the phones and his mind

966
01:02:38,220 --> 01:02:41,850
to the degree he knew, at least
knew he was being manipulated,

967
01:02:41,850 --> 01:02:45,300
but he could not. He could not
stop it. And he said it on the

968
01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:50,610
phone. And that was the power of
the ability to manipulate using

969
01:02:50,610 --> 01:02:55,050
the Koran and three different
Muslim ambassadors. And we were

970
01:02:55,050 --> 01:02:56,670
successful. And

971
01:02:57,030 --> 01:02:59,730
did you have to did you have to
offer him anything like you did

972
01:02:59,730 --> 01:03:02,760
previously in these types of
negotiations? No, I

973
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,690
didn't offer him anything. But I
did do the reverse what I did at

974
01:03:06,690 --> 01:03:10,080
this time, and that was the
first time I began to take away

975
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:15,330
things. So I took away air food.
And I made it his situation

976
01:03:15,330 --> 01:03:19,680
worse. And what I did was if he
were to release 20 or 30

977
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,520
hostages, I would give him the
air conditioning back and we

978
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,190
were faced another 20 or 30
hostages, I would give them

979
01:03:26,190 --> 01:03:30,480
food. But what was not known at
the time, and we were concerned

980
01:03:30,810 --> 01:03:34,890
was that there was napalm on the
stairwell. And when I went to

981
01:03:34,890 --> 01:03:38,580
the head of the FBI unit, I
said, Look, you got a lot of

982
01:03:38,580 --> 01:03:42,660
scopes here and you've got a lot
of snipers, and you don't want

983
01:03:42,660 --> 01:03:46,200
to shoot, but I don't want you
to shoot but I do want you to go

984
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:50,220
on a helicopter and repel off
the helicopter on the roof so

985
01:03:50,220 --> 01:03:54,420
that you can get inside. And the
gentleman I don't remember his

986
01:03:54,420 --> 01:03:58,020
name, but he was quite nice. He
said, Doctor, I gotta tell you

987
01:03:58,020 --> 01:04:03,390
this. We can't repel. We don't
know how to get on. Really?

988
01:04:03,540 --> 01:04:07,890
Well. If we repel, we get dizzy.
I said, Oh my God. Now you're

989
01:04:07,890 --> 01:04:13,050
telling me so it was a total
disaster for the FBI. Needless

990
01:04:13,050 --> 01:04:16,290
to say, of course, two years
later, the FBI had a movie on

991
01:04:16,290 --> 01:04:17,670
showing how well they did.

992
01:04:17,699 --> 01:04:21,449
Oh, yes, of course. They nailed
it. Yes, no. So that was

993
01:04:21,450 --> 01:04:25,470
the beginning of understanding
that and so the these people

994
01:04:25,470 --> 01:04:29,190
were released. I was interviewed
for the first time and I really

995
01:04:29,190 --> 01:04:31,950
normally don't get interviewed
and I really didn't know

996
01:04:32,490 --> 01:04:36,030
anything more other than that.
What I said was this is a local

997
01:04:36,030 --> 01:04:39,630
event or what I did do and had
an impact later and I forgot

998
01:04:39,630 --> 01:04:45,450
this one I had him. I stopped
the the journalists from

999
01:04:45,450 --> 01:04:50,160
reporting on the situation. So I
cut off all communications from

1000
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:55,080
ABC and the television so that I
could control all communications

1001
01:04:55,080 --> 01:05:01,260
between the terrorist and in a
colony and I was accused of

1002
01:05:01,260 --> 01:05:06,510
violating the First Amendment. I
said later on, I sat down at

1003
01:05:06,510 --> 01:05:09,600
lunch with somebody from ABC or
so. And they said, you know, we

1004
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,790
have the right to do this. And
then I said, I don't you don't

1005
01:05:11,790 --> 01:05:12,930
have the right to do anything.

1006
01:05:13,199 --> 01:05:15,749
No, your right to publish
whatever you want. You don't

1007
01:05:15,749 --> 01:05:17,699
necessarily have the right to
access everywhere.

1008
01:05:17,940 --> 01:05:22,260
Correct. And that's the key Adam
and I said, No, whenever I'm in

1009
01:05:22,260 --> 01:05:25,440
charge, you will have no access
to the hostages or the

1010
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:29,070
terrorists, because I don't need
to have the feedback problems

1011
01:05:29,070 --> 01:05:32,730
that you create. Well, and you
know, they have a path, but the

1012
01:05:32,730 --> 01:05:36,510
answer was no, it's not
acceptable. From that. I went on

1013
01:05:36,510 --> 01:05:40,050
to deal with another situation,
which I don't want to get into

1014
01:05:40,050 --> 01:05:44,610
too much detail, which was the
kidnapping of Val dimauro. And

1015
01:05:44,670 --> 01:05:50,730
that's where Cyrus Vance had
asked me would I help out, and I

1016
01:05:50,730 --> 01:05:55,770
said, Fine. And what I didn't
know and was that at that time,

1017
01:05:55,770 --> 01:05:58,980
I had a work with Francesco
Sega, who's the undersecretary

1018
01:05:58,980 --> 01:06:04,740
for security. And we all
D'Amato, again, out tomorrow was

1019
01:06:04,740 --> 01:06:09,420
the prime minister of Italy. And
he was stitched by the regatta

1020
01:06:09,420 --> 01:06:14,010
Ross or the red brigade. And
over a six week period, we were

1021
01:06:14,010 --> 01:06:19,320
negotiating for his release. And
unfortunately, he was killed.

1022
01:06:19,740 --> 01:06:26,040
And I returned back, and but at
that point in Italy, I was

1023
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:32,730
singled out as an individual who
should be taken out by the red

1024
01:06:32,730 --> 01:06:36,570
brigade. And so that's where my,
that's where I started getting

1025
01:06:36,570 --> 01:06:42,900
into some problems. I came back.
And subsequently, I realized

1026
01:06:42,900 --> 01:06:47,550
that a nation state can be very
fragile. Once the leader of that

1027
01:06:47,550 --> 01:06:53,100
country is removed, it was
removed. Subsequent to that I

1028
01:06:53,100 --> 01:06:58,470
was, had to go to Afghanistan
because one of our ambassadors

1029
01:06:58,470 --> 01:07:03,210
were taken hostage as spied
dogs. And we really messed that

1030
01:07:03,210 --> 01:07:06,120
up. And I don't want to get into
the names of the individuals.

1031
01:07:06,810 --> 01:07:11,340
And as a result, we had to bring
back his body and I had a

1032
01:07:11,340 --> 01:07:16,410
stopover, both in Islamabad and
in Tehran. And at that point, in

1033
01:07:16,410 --> 01:07:23,850
June of 78, or 79, I realized
that the Russians, the Soviets

1034
01:07:23,850 --> 01:07:28,050
were leaving to Iran, because
they said, is going to be

1035
01:07:28,050 --> 01:07:31,230
problem here. We're going to
have Muslims taking over. So

1036
01:07:31,230 --> 01:07:36,690
when I came back, I said to the
secretary of state, but Vance

1037
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:42,030
understood it, that we have to
evacuate our embassy and that,

1038
01:07:42,030 --> 01:07:46,200
in turn, was reported to the
White House. And at that time,

1039
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:50,550
it was Brzezinski was in charge
in not a fan of Brzezinski

1040
01:07:51,780 --> 01:07:54,630
basically led us into
Afghanistan, didn't he? Correct?

1041
01:07:54,690 --> 01:07:58,170
That's correct. And so as a
result of all of this would

1042
01:07:58,170 --> 01:08:02,580
happen is we were taken hostage
instead of withdrawing our

1043
01:08:02,970 --> 01:08:09,240
embassy. Would they put in a 50
or 60, new FSOs and civil

1044
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:13,410
servants and I thought that was
a big mistake. And then, once

1045
01:08:13,410 --> 01:08:17,730
they were taken, I was ordered
by Carter to become a hostage

1046
01:08:17,730 --> 01:08:21,510
negotiator with some other guy
forgot about kind of a left wing

1047
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:26,010
guy who was a political hack.
And I said, No, I will not go to

1048
01:08:26,010 --> 01:08:29,940
see Ayatollah Khomeini. As part
of the delegation. I will go

1049
01:08:29,940 --> 01:08:34,890
privately, but I cannot afford
to lose the opening movement. So

1050
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:40,200
I resigned. And then six months
later, a Cyrus Vance resigned.

1051
01:08:40,590 --> 01:08:44,820
And then eventually we had that
helicopter crash, it was a Black

1052
01:08:44,820 --> 01:08:49,800
Hawk Down. Right? Well, that
wasn't black. Ford wrong

1053
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:54,000
country. Well, no, it's
ironically, the same man who's

1054
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:57,960
in charge of Blackhawk down.
Jerry Boykin was a great soldier

1055
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:02,100
who I've worked with later on
special forces. He was involved

1056
01:09:02,100 --> 01:09:06,840
in the helicopter problems that
occurred in Iran. And I really

1057
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,780
was not involved in that
anymore. So I was taken to the

1058
01:09:09,780 --> 01:09:13,620
RAND Corporation where I was
asked to develop the strategy

1059
01:09:13,620 --> 01:09:17,220
and tactics for the regime
change both military, political,

1060
01:09:17,820 --> 01:09:23,400
and cultural. And I did that
under the direction of a friend

1061
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,100
of mine, but at that time, the
head of the RAND Corporation,

1062
01:09:26,100 --> 01:09:26,250
what

1063
01:09:26,250 --> 01:09:28,200
was it at the time of Charlie
Wilson as well?

1064
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:34,200
Whoa, yes, as a matter of fact,
you're right, Charlie Wilson. I

1065
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:38,070
had indirectly met Charlie
Wilson and his wife, but it

1066
01:09:38,070 --> 01:09:41,370
didn't make any. He made no
impression on me. I mean, I

1067
01:09:41,370 --> 01:09:45,360
didn't realize his relevance to
anything other than the fact

1068
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,170
that he was at a dinner table.
So I was not impressed. And when

1069
01:09:49,170 --> 01:09:54,030
I saw the Charlie Wilson war, I
said, Oh, the CIA's gone gone.

1070
01:09:54,030 --> 01:09:56,760
Oh, again, to explain how
wonderful they are.

1071
01:09:58,110 --> 01:10:01,320
So it's not true. That's another
farce, I can't believe it.

1072
01:10:01,590 --> 01:10:05,310
Well, it's not a farce. I mean,
the CIA likes to promote what

1073
01:10:05,310 --> 01:10:08,220
they do or don't do. That's
their right. The same thing with

1074
01:10:08,220 --> 01:10:12,420
the FBI. But one of the things I
said many years later, and I saw

1075
01:10:12,420 --> 01:10:15,810
it came true, I said, I will
predict that the FBI and the CIA

1076
01:10:16,110 --> 01:10:20,010
will have offices in Hollywood,
and lo and behold, right office

1077
01:10:20,010 --> 01:10:24,990
and Holly. So, you know, again,
the manifest stories, what they

1078
01:10:24,990 --> 01:10:27,870
want you to see the latest
stories, not what really

1079
01:10:27,870 --> 01:10:31,200
happened, as a result of and I
was brought back in under the

1080
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:36,900
Reagan administration, and then
I got involved with a General

1081
01:10:36,900 --> 01:10:42,960
Antonio Noriega, whom actually I
admired. He, that was subsequent

1082
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:45,810
to that. That was the Bush
administration, I should say,

1083
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:52,950
and I, I liked Noriega, he and I
had dinner together at night.

1084
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,460
And I explained to him I was
sent down to basically help them

1085
01:10:56,460 --> 01:10:59,130
leave or make the offer, like
The Godfather, and this

1086
01:10:59,129 --> 01:11:00,869
was like a regime change.

1087
01:11:01,350 --> 01:11:06,540
Yes, yes. Right. And at that
point, I had a DIA officer who

1088
01:11:06,540 --> 01:11:11,280
was just wonderful. And I said,
Look, you got a lot of people

1089
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,910
who don't like you up there. I
don't know why they think you're

1090
01:11:14,910 --> 01:11:17,550
stinky. You know, I don't even
know whether you're stinky or

1091
01:11:17,550 --> 01:11:21,810
not. And, you know, he was like
any other leader, he had the

1092
01:11:21,810 --> 01:11:24,540
good parts, the bad parts. But
one of the things that he said

1093
01:11:24,540 --> 01:11:28,500
to me at night, I'll never
forget us, Steve, you learn one

1094
01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:33,330
thing, never never become an
ally of the United States. And

1095
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:34,500
that's stuck with me.

1096
01:11:34,709 --> 01:11:39,839
Now. Can I ask how did you
befriend him? You just happen to

1097
01:11:39,839 --> 01:11:41,249
be in Panama Island?

1098
01:11:41,940 --> 01:11:47,730
No, I was flown down to Panama
by by the agency and the agency

1099
01:11:47,730 --> 01:11:51,990
actually had a handle on this as
well as dia or am I military

1100
01:11:51,990 --> 01:11:57,390
intelligence. And I came in to
talk to him I was authorized by

1101
01:11:57,390 --> 01:12:01,260
the State Department to talk to
him on behalf of the ambassador

1102
01:12:01,260 --> 01:12:04,050
in the State Department asked
him would he be willing to leave

1103
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:07,560
and as a result, he was very
friendly. It wasn't you know, it

1104
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:11,130
was in the a it was what we call
a safe house. And he had

1105
01:12:11,130 --> 01:12:14,370
interpreted but we didn't need
any he made chicken soup for me

1106
01:12:14,370 --> 01:12:20,640
and my dia officer. And I said
look, they want you to leave

1107
01:12:21,210 --> 01:12:24,630
your here's what we're willing
to offer a plane with gold the

1108
01:12:24,630 --> 01:12:27,270
plane with your mistress, a
plane with your wife, blah,

1109
01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:29,820
blah, blah. And he turned it
down.

1110
01:12:29,850 --> 01:12:32,550
Why? Why did we want him to
leave? What was he not the

1111
01:12:32,550 --> 01:12:35,010
perfect partner for our drug
trade already?

1112
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:41,610
Adam, that was the most
objective questions. Pretty

1113
01:12:41,610 --> 01:12:41,940
good. How

1114
01:12:41,940 --> 01:12:42,900
leading the witness.

1115
01:12:43,260 --> 01:12:48,390
That's exactly. And so he hit it
on the head. He was our foremost

1116
01:12:48,450 --> 01:12:52,530
drug trafficker, and then he
went into detail about the Bush

1117
01:12:52,530 --> 01:12:56,850
family and drug traffic and I
told him, okay, basta, enough. I

1118
01:12:56,850 --> 01:12:59,700
didn't want to hear more than I
had to. And

1119
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,220
so they wanted to cut them out.
They were done with him, or he

1120
01:13:02,250 --> 01:13:05,160
screwed him over something.
Something went wrong. Yeah,

1121
01:13:05,220 --> 01:13:08,580
I mean, the details of this,
because it wasn't exactly what

1122
01:13:08,580 --> 01:13:12,360
Bush seen. You said that we had
a terrible man who killed many

1123
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:13,380
people and right

1124
01:13:13,380 --> 01:13:16,230
it sounds how it always goes,
the dictator evil dictator,

1125
01:13:16,230 --> 01:13:18,810
killing his own people is
horrible. We gotta get rid of

1126
01:13:18,810 --> 01:13:21,270
him. We need to get we need to
save the children.

1127
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:26,340
Correct. But what happened?
Subsequently, I left and I was

1128
01:13:26,340 --> 01:13:30,150
compromised by the CIA. I mean,
that was why I could smile.

1129
01:13:30,690 --> 01:13:34,140
Although I doubled one of their
operatives, and they compromised

1130
01:13:34,140 --> 01:13:38,250
me in the newspaper, say that I
was this and that. And they

1131
01:13:38,250 --> 01:13:40,860
couldn't spell my name, right.
But I knew it was the agency,

1132
01:13:40,860 --> 01:13:45,720
but I had a smile. And
basically, I left I mean, I was

1133
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:52,470
then persona non grata. And by
my leaving, I was called into

1134
01:13:52,470 --> 01:13:55,710
the White House, and actually, I
was reprimanded by your uncle,

1135
01:13:56,070 --> 01:13:59,790
and the first time and I didn't
mind it. He said, what we're

1136
01:13:59,790 --> 01:14:03,480
doing there was inappropriate,
and I just nodded my head and

1137
01:14:03,900 --> 01:14:07,530
just gave an excuse that, you
know, I was told to come down

1138
01:14:07,530 --> 01:14:11,310
and I did what I was thought
would be best, although he knew

1139
01:14:11,310 --> 01:14:13,980
I was doing agitation,
propaganda, and I couldn't

1140
01:14:13,980 --> 01:14:18,990
bullshit them. And I didn't and
I knew I knew how to do that.

1141
01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:25,410
But I was flown out. And then I
was severely reprimanded. I

1142
01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:29,820
didn't hit my hand or anything.
And then I left I left to do

1143
01:14:29,850 --> 01:14:30,120
well, but

1144
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:34,320
CIA had they already had their
own. I guess the Iran Contra

1145
01:14:34,530 --> 01:14:36,690
deal must have been brewing at
that point.

1146
01:14:37,230 --> 01:14:40,800
That's correct. And at
fortunately for me, a friend of

1147
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,420
mine, Mort Abramowitz, who, and
Richard Salem and two guys at

1148
01:14:45,420 --> 01:14:49,200
the State Department said stay
away. And it was a guy by the

1149
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,710
name of Elliott Abrams, whom I
had known because we had gone to

1150
01:14:52,710 --> 01:14:57,900
the same synagogue I knew was
involved in this chicanery and

1151
01:14:57,900 --> 01:15:04,530
nonsense and I remember when I
came back from Panama, I was

1152
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:11,220
very much impressed by the FSOs
and the CIA operatives in. I was

1153
01:15:11,220 --> 01:15:15,630
about to debrief up on the
seventh floor with a bunch of

1154
01:15:15,630 --> 01:15:22,800
other desses. And in my usual
boorish way, Elliot said some

1155
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:26,010
comment about the fact that
these were cowards at the State

1156
01:15:26,010 --> 01:15:31,530
Department and I was furious. So
I jacked up his neck and held

1157
01:15:31,530 --> 01:15:34,560
him by the neck and said, you
ever say that again? I'll kill

1158
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:39,450
you. And Schultz walked right
in. So I knew right then in

1159
01:15:39,450 --> 01:15:44,970
there, I wasn't part of the
State Department per se. The

1160
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,660
regime changing but I really
found it offensive that the

1161
01:15:48,660 --> 01:15:51,990
people who worked with me both
in the CIA in the State

1162
01:15:51,990 --> 01:15:56,160
Department were deprecated by
this little coward, and this

1163
01:15:56,160 --> 01:16:00,540
idiot, whom I never respected,
and eventually, I got to see his

1164
01:16:00,630 --> 01:16:05,580
image chicanery again in 911.
And then absurd of absurdities.

1165
01:16:05,580 --> 01:16:09,060
He became the head of quote,
democracy and human rights, the

1166
01:16:09,060 --> 01:16:12,420
Council on Foreign Relations
under Richard Haass, and other

1167
01:16:12,420 --> 01:16:17,130
piece of work. So you could see
how by that time already, I had

1168
01:16:17,130 --> 01:16:19,890
already realized that this is
nonsense.

1169
01:16:19,919 --> 01:16:22,469
You are a member, as you said
earlier of the Council on

1170
01:16:22,469 --> 01:16:23,789
Foreign Relations, I was

1171
01:16:23,790 --> 01:16:26,940
proud to be a member. And then I
realized that it was being taken

1172
01:16:26,940 --> 01:16:31,350
over by Neo cons and by people
who wanted to reminisce about

1173
01:16:31,350 --> 01:16:34,890
their days in the State
Department. And it had a cross

1174
01:16:34,890 --> 01:16:40,050
between neocon idiocy and going
to war and a nursing home. And I

1175
01:16:40,050 --> 01:16:43,260
said, I don't understand really
why I'm paying for this. And I

1176
01:16:43,260 --> 01:16:46,680
just left. I was probably one of
the first and only people to

1177
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:49,620
leave the Council on Foreign
Relations, but I had no need for

1178
01:16:49,620 --> 01:16:54,150
it. I understood its, you know,
it was basically a nursing home

1179
01:16:54,150 --> 01:16:58,290
for those who had memories and
wanted to relive their lives

1180
01:16:58,320 --> 01:16:59,220
drinking club.

1181
01:17:00,480 --> 01:17:03,300
You could say that, and um, you
could say that, I don't say

1182
01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:04,410
they're alcoholics. That

1183
01:17:05,490 --> 01:17:06,960
didn't mean it like that. But

1184
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:09,960
no, but you're right. I mean, I
had other things to do. And

1185
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:14,310
actually, I went out to
California to, to build up the

1186
01:17:14,310 --> 01:17:17,970
franchise on the the Clancy
name, and then you know, do a

1187
01:17:17,970 --> 01:17:21,930
few TV shows. And as Tom and I
were talking about, I worked

1188
01:17:21,930 --> 01:17:25,980
with ABC and Walt Disney. So I
got to meet a bunch of other

1189
01:17:25,980 --> 01:17:31,020
character Eisner and ovitz who I
really liked, I got to enjoy

1190
01:17:31,050 --> 01:17:35,370
Michael Ovitz and Eisner who I
didn't know that well. But there

1191
01:17:35,370 --> 01:17:38,970
was a guy who I really enjoyed
Mark Pedowitz, who was head of

1192
01:17:38,970 --> 01:17:43,560
ABC, and they allowed me to run,
you know, the unit and I had

1193
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:47,790
about 130 people on the set and
22 unions, so I wanted to break

1194
01:17:47,790 --> 01:17:52,770
the unions, but I wanted to
recompense my people. And so I

1195
01:17:52,770 --> 01:17:57,090
had ordered all my truck drivers
to go from Los Angeles to

1196
01:17:57,090 --> 01:18:01,620
Fredericksburg, Virginia, which
was a right to work state. But

1197
01:18:01,620 --> 01:18:05,190
in turn, I gave him triple
salary. So I said, just

1198
01:18:05,190 --> 01:18:08,370
remember, you're working for an
entrepreneur, not for the Union.

1199
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:13,260
Now, when did you miss all the
things you were doing? When did

1200
01:18:13,260 --> 01:18:14,580
you find time to write?

1201
01:18:15,630 --> 01:18:18,960
I was always writing. That's a
good question, Adam. And that

1202
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:23,190
was my passion. Even in medical
school, I had time to I found

1203
01:18:23,190 --> 01:18:27,300
time to go to the new school to
write plays. And then when I was

1204
01:18:27,300 --> 01:18:34,290
in charge of 4000, screaming
criminals, mentally ill and

1205
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:38,040
criminally insane. I would write
in the evening, otherwise, I

1206
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:40,830
would go nuts, because you could
hear the screams going through

1207
01:18:40,830 --> 01:18:46,650
St. Elizabeth's. And even when I
came back at home, I would write

1208
01:18:46,710 --> 01:18:52,920
a fiction. And in one of the
things while I was at MIT, I sit

1209
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:56,520
solution pi, whom I admired and
adored. He was really a

1210
01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:00,360
brilliant man. And I said,
Lucien, I'm gonna write my

1211
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:05,490
thesis on terrorism and
counterterrorism in fiction. And

1212
01:19:05,490 --> 01:19:10,320
he said, wow, and he said, why?
I said, Because fiction will

1213
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:17,220
allow me the latitude to really
go into the hidden stories

1214
01:19:17,220 --> 01:19:21,240
behind the terrorist and myself
and the dynamics of what a

1215
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,900
counter terrorist is in, in many
ways. It's very similar to a

1216
01:19:24,900 --> 01:19:29,460
terrorist. And I had allow me to
go to those dynamics, which I

1217
01:19:29,460 --> 01:19:33,840
don't have to footnote it. So he
said, Okay, this was by T at its

1218
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:38,460
finest, said, that's fine. So I
think I wrote the only PhD in

1219
01:19:38,460 --> 01:19:42,690
fiction and then I wrote another
300 pages to explain why I used

1220
01:19:42,690 --> 01:19:46,950
fiction. And then I invoked, you
know, through cities, Heraclitus

1221
01:19:47,010 --> 01:19:50,340
and Disraeli. Of course, I
didn't say I was the equivalent.

1222
01:19:50,490 --> 01:19:55,740
I just said they wrote fish. And
I was, you know, part of the PhD

1223
01:19:55,740 --> 01:19:59,970
is you get questions and you get
interrogated by a board and I

1224
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,540
And I loved it. They really
asked me some serious questions

1225
01:20:03,540 --> 01:20:06,990
and I answered them, and I
explained why fiction was of

1226
01:20:06,990 --> 01:20:12,330
great value. I subsequently used
fiction to basically explain

1227
01:20:12,330 --> 01:20:15,570
what I had done and what I would
see in the future of the United

1228
01:20:15,570 --> 01:20:19,590
States. And that's where I'd use
the Tom Clancy franchise,

1229
01:20:19,590 --> 01:20:24,390
particularly Ops Center. In then
I began to write novels about

1230
01:20:24,900 --> 01:20:31,530
one I saw was the military coup
that would eventually occur in

1231
01:20:31,530 --> 01:20:36,120
any given presidency. I didn't
say any a particular presidency,

1232
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:41,100
but I said that eventually time
would compel a certain

1233
01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:45,600
individual to really regress,
let's say the President, if he

1234
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:50,340
regresses in any way, will
compel our military to be able

1235
01:20:50,340 --> 01:20:53,460
to access the White House or be
in the White House. And it

1236
01:20:53,460 --> 01:20:55,410
wouldn't be a simple military
coup.

1237
01:20:55,440 --> 01:20:58,950
Did you develop this theory
based upon your experiences with

1238
01:20:58,980 --> 01:21:00,570
other countries and observing

1239
01:21:00,570 --> 01:21:03,840
them? Yes, yes, as well as my
experiences in the United

1240
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:08,670
States. I don't want to go into
detail on which ones but I, I

1241
01:21:08,670 --> 01:21:13,740
can tell you that having studied
a John F Kennedy, I didn't know

1242
01:21:13,740 --> 01:21:16,470
him personally, but I did know
him as a medical doctor at

1243
01:21:16,470 --> 01:21:20,130
Cornell University Medical
College where they had treated

1244
01:21:20,130 --> 01:21:25,470
him several months before. And
they gave us a case history of a

1245
01:21:25,470 --> 01:21:30,270
man who had back problem and had
surgery and went psychotic. And

1246
01:21:30,270 --> 01:21:33,870
I said, Wow, what happened and
the the doctors who treated me

1247
01:21:34,350 --> 01:21:38,130
from a clinical perspective told
me that that individual had

1248
01:21:38,130 --> 01:21:40,380
Addison's disease. And of
course, that was John F.

1249
01:21:40,380 --> 01:21:44,370
Kennedy, and the history and the
legend making of John F.

1250
01:21:44,370 --> 01:21:48,720
Kennedy. They don't talk about
how seriously ill he was and how

1251
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:53,340
indecisive he was how depressed
he was how psychotic he was at

1252
01:21:53,340 --> 01:21:56,820
times in Lausanne in Fetta.
mean, he was on vitamins, he was

1253
01:21:56,820 --> 01:22:00,300
on all kinds of drugs. But when
you listen to the manifest

1254
01:22:00,300 --> 01:22:03,960
history that the Kennedys
created, you thought this was a

1255
01:22:04,020 --> 01:22:08,340
sweet little darling, who knew
exactly what he had to say. But

1256
01:22:08,340 --> 01:22:11,220
in reality, he was a very poor
congressman, a very poor

1257
01:22:11,220 --> 01:22:14,610
Senator, I checked it out with
many of my other friends. And it

1258
01:22:14,610 --> 01:22:18,570
was really quite an inept
president. And the reason we had

1259
01:22:18,900 --> 01:22:23,130
the missile crisis and other
crises occurring was because he

1260
01:22:23,130 --> 01:22:26,610
had this mental fluctuation, but
they don't talk about it. So

1261
01:22:26,610 --> 01:22:29,670
guys at Harvard, like Ted
Sorensen, and others made up the

1262
01:22:29,670 --> 01:22:34,260
bullshit, let the 13 days, and
the most important days and you

1263
01:22:34,260 --> 01:22:38,160
studied it? And the answer was,
they really didn't want to put

1264
01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:42,840
in the issue that he was
mercurial, he was mentally sick,

1265
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:46,740
he should never have gone into
the Navy. It was his father who

1266
01:22:46,740 --> 01:22:50,280
pushed them in. And of course,
that was the hidden message of

1267
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,820
all of this, but it was covered
up by Oh, John F. Kennedy said

1268
01:22:53,820 --> 01:22:56,640
this. And John F. Kennedy said
that, well, what John F Kennedy

1269
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:01,500
did was to create a lot of wars,
all over Latin America and

1270
01:23:01,500 --> 01:23:09,000
Vietnam. And you really
alienated the CIA, Allen Dulles

1271
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,480
in particular, and many others,
and really was out of control.

1272
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:17,760
And his handlers would never
admit it. And so whatever

1273
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:21,930
happened happened, but it was,
it was predictable that he would

1274
01:23:21,930 --> 01:23:22,890
have been assassin.

1275
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:28,230
This This probably also
solidified your theory, that

1276
01:23:28,890 --> 01:23:33,090
President really is not that
effective after 100 days, but is

1277
01:23:33,090 --> 01:23:39,870
very effective in being the
figure for the public. And

1278
01:23:40,110 --> 01:23:44,580
well, yes, I mean, the notion,
you hit on something, Adam, the

1279
01:23:44,580 --> 01:23:49,260
notion of the presidency as
being a unifying symbol, in the

1280
01:23:49,260 --> 01:23:53,280
50s 60s, and 70s, was
legitimate. In other words, you

1281
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:57,240
had Eisenhower, then you had
Nixon and Nixon had a problem,

1282
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:01,200
but we could go on, and then we
had Ford, and then from Ford, we

1283
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:05,490
could go on and have Jimmy
Carter so that the the sequence

1284
01:24:05,490 --> 01:24:10,200
of events allowed the Republic
to maintain a certain integrity.

1285
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:13,800
And the reason why that was
important is because quite

1286
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,740
frankly, there was nothing
behind the dollar bill. And the

1287
01:24:16,740 --> 01:24:20,190
only thing behind the dollar
bill is the notion that we have

1288
01:24:20,190 --> 01:24:24,090
a system or Republic, it's not
necessarily a democracy, but a

1289
01:24:24,090 --> 01:24:28,950
republic that maintains its
integrity from one time to

1290
01:24:28,950 --> 01:24:32,400
another time. Now all of that
broke apart. And I could see

1291
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:36,030
that with the advent of the
internet, because the internet

1292
01:24:36,060 --> 01:24:39,840
eventually broke down the nation
state. And that was what I was

1293
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:43,380
beginning to write in my net
four series under the Clancy

1294
01:24:43,380 --> 01:24:47,280
franchise. When I wrote about a
cyber nation and people said,

1295
01:24:47,340 --> 01:24:50,520
and years later, the generals
would ask me, Well, how did you

1296
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:53,430
come to that idea? I said, What
do you mean? If you have a

1297
01:24:53,430 --> 01:24:56,820
nation and you have the
internet, the nation state is no

1298
01:24:56,820 --> 01:25:00,690
longer valid. It really is the
Connect Since that I have

1299
01:25:00,690 --> 01:25:05,760
between one and zero and the
people I might have in Uganda or

1300
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:09,510
in the Soviet Union or in
Russia. So from that point on, I

1301
01:25:09,510 --> 01:25:12,540
was really writing and fiction
what was gonna happen in the

1302
01:25:12,540 --> 01:25:13,080
future.

1303
01:25:13,110 --> 01:25:16,380
And so you would already pivot
be pivoted beyond what the

1304
01:25:16,380 --> 01:25:19,230
intelligence services thought at
the same time, which is, hey, we

1305
01:25:19,230 --> 01:25:21,990
control media, we have
messaging, that's, you know, we

1306
01:25:21,990 --> 01:25:25,140
can kind of make things work
that way. But you foresaw that

1307
01:25:25,140 --> 01:25:28,200
this would be this would remove
that entire capability,

1308
01:25:28,230 --> 01:25:31,890
correct. It would not only not
only that, it would always

1309
01:25:31,890 --> 01:25:34,830
remove it, it would also
undermine the credibility of our

1310
01:25:34,830 --> 01:25:38,790
military, because at that
particular point, and even now,

1311
01:25:38,820 --> 01:25:42,600
we don't really need soldiers
shooting guns, and aircraft

1312
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:46,170
carriers and all that nonsense,
the hardware, what we really

1313
01:25:46,170 --> 01:25:50,010
need, it was a que pasa the
capacity to deal with cyber

1314
01:25:50,340 --> 01:25:56,370
terrorism, Cyber Command cyber
warfare. And when I wrote about

1315
01:25:56,370 --> 01:25:58,860
it, that was way ahead. But
there was a general who

1316
01:25:58,860 --> 01:26:02,280
understood that Keith Alexander,
whom I had worked with in GE,

1317
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,430
too, and he had several degrees
in software. And

1318
01:26:05,430 --> 01:26:08,790
he later became the the read and
write, write.

1319
01:26:09,210 --> 01:26:12,240
But he understood that and
unfortunately, what happened

1320
01:26:12,540 --> 01:26:15,000
when you had Keith and he
certainly made some mistakes,

1321
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:18,720
but you want you expect to make
that. So what happened then is

1322
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:22,500
you got an officer, a naval
officer, I'm sure it's a good

1323
01:26:22,500 --> 01:26:25,860
man, Mark Rogers, who was a
submarine commander, now that

1324
01:26:25,860 --> 01:26:30,030
has nothing to do with cyber
command or cyber terrorism. So

1325
01:26:30,030 --> 01:26:32,640
what was happening in the
future, what was happening in

1326
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,330
the present time was a total
disconnect, from what I had been

1327
01:26:36,330 --> 01:26:39,540
writing in terms of cyber
nation, cyber terrorism, cyber

1328
01:26:39,540 --> 01:26:42,750
warfare. And then in my other
novels, I was writing about

1329
01:26:42,750 --> 01:26:46,920
water wars, because I saw water
is an issue. And then I wrote

1330
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:50,490
about a little, a bunch of
islands that nobody believed in,

1331
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:54,300
don't tell me some Japanese
islands somewhere around these

1332
01:26:54,300 --> 01:26:57,720
with Chinese islands. Depends on
how you look at it Japanese and

1333
01:26:57,720 --> 01:26:59,100
Chinese. Right?

1334
01:26:59,130 --> 01:27:02,580
You're right. And, and it was,
again, James Lilly, who

1335
01:27:02,580 --> 01:27:06,090
understood what I had written 20
years ago. And I said, this will

1336
01:27:06,090 --> 01:27:09,180
be the focal point for a
potential war with China

1337
01:27:09,210 --> 01:27:11,640
to them. So that must have been
frustrating the people that you

1338
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,970
were spelling it out for them,
and that they weren't seeing it

1339
01:27:14,970 --> 01:27:17,760
or worse, they were refusing the
entire notion?

1340
01:27:18,300 --> 01:27:21,750
Well, it goes back to your
initial statement about me, they

1341
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:24,750
shut you off, before you finish,
you're the only one allowing me

1342
01:27:24,750 --> 01:27:27,510
to do that. And that, so I get
used to it, you get socialized

1343
01:27:27,510 --> 01:27:31,080
to it. And you basically say,
Okay, I mean, you know, I'm not

1344
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:34,620
going to spend my hours getting
frustrated over it, you know,

1345
01:27:34,620 --> 01:27:37,380
you can either buy the book, but
you don't have to buy the book,

1346
01:27:37,380 --> 01:27:41,100
it was that kind of attitude.
But I kept on going into other

1347
01:27:41,100 --> 01:27:46,110
areas in what I began to see was
that eventually, you know, the

1348
01:27:46,110 --> 01:27:49,590
realizations of what I had seen
20 years ago, would eventually

1349
01:27:49,590 --> 01:27:53,130
come through with a water wars
in California and Nevada,

1350
01:27:53,400 --> 01:27:57,000
Montana. And it has happened now
in Florida, where we're fighting

1351
01:27:57,000 --> 01:28:01,110
the phosphate mines coming out
of Minnesota mosaic mines, where

1352
01:28:01,110 --> 01:28:04,500
the RV parks, so you're
beginning to understand that

1353
01:28:04,500 --> 01:28:08,400
water is like one of the crucial
issues in the world that will

1354
01:28:08,460 --> 01:28:12,810
will create a war. And so when
you have the Chinese you already

1355
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:17,160
Bhutan now? That's correct. So
also water. Correct.

1356
01:28:17,190 --> 01:28:22,620
And that that point of conflict
between the Indians and the

1357
01:28:22,620 --> 01:28:26,700
Chinese is a major conflict
point. And I've warned that to

1358
01:28:26,700 --> 01:28:30,120
our military, or our
intelligence saying, Listen, if

1359
01:28:30,120 --> 01:28:34,590
I would look at any other place
in terms of potential serious

1360
01:28:34,590 --> 01:28:38,700
wars, it would be between
Pakistan and India and Indian

1361
01:28:38,700 --> 01:28:42,900
China because Pakistan and China
are really very close. But you

1362
01:28:42,900 --> 01:28:45,120
have Bhutan, as you said, right?
Well,

1363
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:48,570
the Chinese were their One Belt,
One Road their deep in bed with

1364
01:28:48,570 --> 01:28:51,210
Pakistan, which India does not
like at all.

1365
01:28:51,660 --> 01:28:56,130
Correct. And you have the
Chinese also who really had they

1366
01:28:56,130 --> 01:28:59,820
don't have enough water, because
he Pong has to deal with the

1367
01:28:59,820 --> 01:29:05,220
fact that about 300 to half 300
to 500 million people don't

1368
01:29:05,220 --> 01:29:08,880
really have enough water, the
Yangtze and the Yalu the totally

1369
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,840
contaminated. So they have to be
able to get the water from the

1370
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:15,990
Himalayas. And that will be a
problem for China. Steve.

1371
01:29:15,990 --> 01:29:18,540
So you at this point, you
understand where the future is?

1372
01:29:18,540 --> 01:29:21,690
You understand I don't know if
you've ever read Kaczynski is

1373
01:29:21,990 --> 01:29:24,600
industrial society and its
future. But there's a lot of

1374
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:28,380
your thinking that is very
similar to that in a good way.

1375
01:29:28,410 --> 01:29:30,360
I mean, that's all right. I

1376
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:31,920
mean, the blowing up people
like,

1377
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:36,210
no, Adam, I mean, what you have
to understand about me, I don't

1378
01:29:36,300 --> 01:29:40,230
have to feel that I'm right. I
just have to write what I feel.

1379
01:29:40,230 --> 01:29:44,400
And then if it happens, fine. If
it doesn't happen, fine, but I

1380
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:48,240
don't need that credit. I
basically write it because it's,

1381
01:29:48,330 --> 01:29:51,990
it's internal for me. It's not
something I want an approval of

1382
01:29:51,990 --> 01:29:52,080
of.

1383
01:29:52,770 --> 01:29:57,240
Right but so but so now, I
think, and this is I think where

1384
01:29:57,420 --> 01:30:05,250
you are greatly misunderstood.
You see the future of the

1385
01:30:05,250 --> 01:30:07,740
psychological operations,
warfare, whatever you want to

1386
01:30:07,740 --> 01:30:10,830
call it, certainly in the United
States, and you see the

1387
01:30:10,830 --> 01:30:13,230
internet, and I think around
this time, you may have seen

1388
01:30:13,230 --> 01:30:18,210
Alex Jones early, early days.
And where I believe there's

1389
01:30:18,300 --> 01:30:21,990
probably a misconception that
you're handling him or anything

1390
01:30:21,990 --> 01:30:24,930
of the like, you're really doing
what you've always done you you

1391
01:30:24,930 --> 01:30:29,640
continue to tell the future. And
whether it's an A Novel whether

1392
01:30:29,730 --> 01:30:34,710
that novel becomes a television
series or a movie. Correct. You

1393
01:30:34,710 --> 01:30:37,860
want to expose people to what
that I guess that's just in you.

1394
01:30:38,430 --> 01:30:42,060
That's, that's in me. I mean,
and I can't I understand

1395
01:30:42,060 --> 01:30:45,180
that, believe me, I understand
this inside, because that's one

1396
01:30:45,180 --> 01:30:48,240
of the reasons I do our show at
all is, you know, it's, it's

1397
01:30:48,270 --> 01:30:51,810
always I find it fun to say, oh,
what's really going on here,

1398
01:30:51,810 --> 01:30:53,730
this is way different than
you're being told.

1399
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:58,050
Well, that's why you and I can
get along, or I and Alex and get

1400
01:30:58,050 --> 01:31:02,580
along. No, I don't handle Alex.
Alex is a phenomenon which I

1401
01:31:02,580 --> 01:31:06,780
particularly enjoy. I mean, when
I first heard him, and I said,

1402
01:31:06,780 --> 01:31:10,380
you know, I think this is going
to be the future where somebody

1403
01:31:10,530 --> 01:31:14,610
like him who can riff,
literally, intellectually riff,

1404
01:31:14,940 --> 01:31:18,090
at a far greater rate than I
could ever dream of. It's almost

1405
01:31:18,090 --> 01:31:22,230
like a jazz riff. I said,
myself, my God, you know, what

1406
01:31:22,230 --> 01:31:25,410
comes out of him in any
particular moment, is quite

1407
01:31:25,410 --> 01:31:29,430
amazing. But at the same time,
he has that sense of self

1408
01:31:29,430 --> 01:31:34,050
deprecation and humor, that I
admire. And I can relate to and

1409
01:31:34,050 --> 01:31:37,530
I've always liked that about
Bill Hicks. Well, that's true. I

1410
01:31:37,530 --> 01:31:40,530
don't want to say that. I don't
want to get into that argument.

1411
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:44,430
I as I said, I don't care if he
was Mickey Mouse and Donald

1412
01:31:44,430 --> 01:31:48,210
Duck, if he's Bill Hicks, or not
Bill Hicks, whatever talent he

1413
01:31:48,210 --> 01:31:53,370
has its talent that said, and
the same with you. And you know,

1414
01:31:53,370 --> 01:31:56,220
you relate, you basically relate
to people who you feel

1415
01:31:56,220 --> 01:31:59,430
comfortable with, you know, I
can't relate to the, to the

1416
01:31:59,430 --> 01:32:02,610
arrogant to the pompous, I mean,
people used to say to me, What,

1417
01:32:02,610 --> 01:32:05,220
oh, well, how come you're not
teaching in academia? Are you

1418
01:32:05,220 --> 01:32:09,150
kidding? I wouldn't last three
minutes in academia. Why don't

1419
01:32:09,150 --> 01:32:11,790
you teach the Chairman of the
Department of Psychiatry, I

1420
01:32:11,790 --> 01:32:16,500
wouldn't last four minutes in
psychiatry. So in a way, I find

1421
01:32:16,500 --> 01:32:21,930
my own neighborhood, which is
guys like you and Bill Hicks, or

1422
01:32:21,930 --> 01:32:27,450
Alex Jones, or whoever it may be
in. And I limited to that, and I

1423
01:32:27,450 --> 01:32:31,470
enjoy it. Because it doesn't
have to prove anything, we don't

1424
01:32:31,470 --> 01:32:35,100
have to be correct. And if we
are correct, we can smile about

1425
01:32:35,100 --> 01:32:39,180
it. But you and I know it
doesn't mean much to be correct.

1426
01:32:39,180 --> 01:32:42,750
I mean, if let me put it this
way, in the worst case scenario,

1427
01:32:42,780 --> 01:32:46,230
if I turn out to be correct, and
I say to people, I'm a

1428
01:32:46,230 --> 01:32:49,380
physician, I don't want to be
correct. If I'm saying to you,

1429
01:32:49,380 --> 01:32:53,490
the patient's got cancer, you
better listen. And so after a

1430
01:32:53,490 --> 01:32:57,150
while, since I'm not in the
business of being their doctors,

1431
01:32:57,390 --> 01:33:00,510
I just walked away and say,
look, they want to self emulate

1432
01:33:00,510 --> 01:33:03,330
or they want to self destruct,
that's their business, not mine.

1433
01:33:03,930 --> 01:33:05,850
So that's basically how I
approach it.

1434
01:33:05,970 --> 01:33:09,390
So if I go back to what may have
been a turning point for you,

1435
01:33:09,390 --> 01:33:14,550
and your, in your, certainly
trust in the agency was 911. And

1436
01:33:14,550 --> 01:33:17,910
from this stems, you know, the
term false flag, which is thrown

1437
01:33:17,910 --> 01:33:21,420
around very easily, these days,
and it's probably the biggest

1438
01:33:21,420 --> 01:33:25,440
point of contention. Whenever I
explain something to someone

1439
01:33:25,440 --> 01:33:28,020
say, Well, you know, this is the
possibility it was a so called

1440
01:33:28,020 --> 01:33:30,300
false flag, here's how they
work, here's why they've done

1441
01:33:30,300 --> 01:33:33,000
here's historically how they
take place, but it seems,

1442
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:36,810
whether it's through the advent
of the the propagation of the

1443
01:33:36,810 --> 01:33:39,390
internet, and how the
information flows, but it seems

1444
01:33:39,390 --> 01:33:43,980
like there are more of them,
really, for less reason than

1445
01:33:43,980 --> 01:33:44,400
ever.

1446
01:33:45,660 --> 01:33:50,160
Well, that may be true. But
again, what I go back to is it's

1447
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:53,970
easy to say that's a false flag,
or, you know, it's whatever it

1448
01:33:53,970 --> 01:33:59,010
is, but what's not easy to do is
to hold the people accountable

1449
01:33:59,010 --> 01:34:02,430
who've done it, and instead they
get retread through the garbage

1450
01:34:02,430 --> 01:34:06,090
of government. I mean, no Bush
has been indicted. No Bush has

1451
01:34:06,090 --> 01:34:10,020
gone to prison. None of the
chain he hasn't gone to prison.

1452
01:34:10,020 --> 01:34:13,110
You know, you say anything about
Cheney, you got the Secret

1453
01:34:13,110 --> 01:34:17,850
Service suddenly standing over
this holy, you know, idiot, who

1454
01:34:17,850 --> 01:34:21,420
basically coward. I mean, that's
all he really is. And then you

1455
01:34:21,420 --> 01:34:25,020
get the self righteous attitude,
and then you suddenly hear, you

1456
01:34:25,020 --> 01:34:28,440
know, then you get the black
baby coming out of the CIA name

1457
01:34:28,440 --> 01:34:32,370
Obama, and then the Wonder
yourself, yeah, what's going on

1458
01:34:32,370 --> 01:34:36,270
here? This is not the Republic.
I mean, the agency has failed

1459
01:34:36,270 --> 01:34:37,860
and the agency will continue to

1460
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:40,560
under whose leadership did that
fail when the when did this

1461
01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:41,550
really happen?

1462
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:45,330
This really happened under the
Bush administration senior and

1463
01:34:45,330 --> 01:34:48,120
then Junior and it began to go
down the hill

1464
01:34:48,150 --> 01:34:50,910
and it's just great. It's just
greed on their part that they

1465
01:34:50,910 --> 01:34:51,360
know

1466
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:55,950
it's it's also arrogance and
stupidity far, far greater

1467
01:34:55,950 --> 01:34:59,400
problem than greed is arrogance
and stupidity when you don't

1468
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:02,730
know what you doing and you
think you're right. It's deadly.

1469
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:06,420
And you had that under Clinton,
who was oh, you know, reported

1470
01:35:06,420 --> 01:35:11,130
to the agency. You had it under
Obama, who was totally a baby in

1471
01:35:11,130 --> 01:35:15,660
the agency. His mother was an
anthropology spoke Russian. She

1472
01:35:15,660 --> 01:35:20,400
was a PhD, they sent her to
Jakarta. And you don't send a

1473
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:24,210
white woman from the middle of
wet Midwest, to Jakarta unless

1474
01:35:24,210 --> 01:35:27,570
she's agency and his maternal
grandmother and grandfather

1475
01:35:27,570 --> 01:35:30,570
worked at the East West Center,
and which I was in charge of,

1476
01:35:30,570 --> 01:35:34,800
and they were CIA bankers. So
the whole notion that he came

1477
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:38,610
out and the narrative that he
came out and he was a, you know,

1478
01:35:38,610 --> 01:35:42,960
street, whatever it was
nonsense, it's stupid. It's just

1479
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:46,230
nonsense. The American public is
not going to buy it, and he's

1480
01:35:46,230 --> 01:35:49,500
not going to be effective. And
so we saw the problems with the

1481
01:35:49,500 --> 01:35:53,040
Clintons. How corrupt they were.
There wasn't anything new did

1482
01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:56,700
Bill Clinton really wise mother
was a nurse now his mother was a

1483
01:35:56,700 --> 01:36:00,690
prostitute in Hope, Arkansas.
Hope Arkansas was the place

1484
01:36:00,690 --> 01:36:04,890
where the mafia in the 1920s and
30s would go to in order to go

1485
01:36:04,890 --> 01:36:08,400
before they go to Miami if they
don't want to be caught, right.

1486
01:36:08,430 --> 01:36:12,840
He talked about, you know, he
talked basically about a

1487
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:17,460
whorehouse where Bill Clinton
comes in there. And he thinks

1488
01:36:17,460 --> 01:36:22,650
he's smart. And Strobe Talbott
at the time magazine covers him

1489
01:36:22,650 --> 01:36:25,440
and explains how good he really
was when in fact, he was a

1490
01:36:25,440 --> 01:36:28,830
disaster. Then you got Hillary
who's not as bright as she

1491
01:36:28,830 --> 01:36:32,820
thinks it is. And I was saying
to Alex, she's going under. And

1492
01:36:32,820 --> 01:36:35,670
he said, why? I said, well,
because when you're spending 100

1493
01:36:35,670 --> 01:36:38,220
million, and you don't know what
you're doing, and you got a

1494
01:36:38,220 --> 01:36:41,430
gentleman there who's playing
with a Twitter, and doesn't bend

1495
01:36:41,430 --> 01:36:44,910
anything, the problem is already
solved, she's gonna lose, it

1496
01:36:44,910 --> 01:36:48,450
doesn't matter what happens
stupidity is stupidity. So in

1497
01:36:48,450 --> 01:36:51,810
our world where you and I and
others or Tom has to be held

1498
01:36:51,810 --> 01:36:55,020
accountable, we would be held
accountable for that. But in the

1499
01:36:55,020 --> 01:36:58,410
world of the Republic, and the
people who play around there,

1500
01:36:58,710 --> 01:37:02,580
it's It's nonsense, it becomes a
theater of the absurd, but even

1501
01:37:02,580 --> 01:37:05,520
it becomes to the point where
it's just a not approach. And

1502
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:05,730
why,

1503
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,840
why why is it that this goes has
gotten so far, because it seems

1504
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:13,830
like now, we are really in a
state of total, nobody's

1505
01:37:13,830 --> 01:37:17,160
been arrested. Nobody's been
arrested. You see, when you put

1506
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:20,340
them in prison, and the FBI gets
their act together and stops

1507
01:37:20,340 --> 01:37:24,990
being the extension of a
crossdresser J. Edgar Hoover,

1508
01:37:24,990 --> 01:37:28,200
who manipulates people and
thinks that they can do things

1509
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:31,890
that they can, and you have an
agency and you have Homeland

1510
01:37:31,890 --> 01:37:36,270
Security that start as to be
real, yeah. Fictional

1511
01:37:36,270 --> 01:37:40,110
institutions, which are
providing jobs, then you don't

1512
01:37:40,110 --> 01:37:41,310
get real outcomes.

1513
01:37:41,340 --> 01:37:45,420
And I always remember, and it
was the most bizarre thing to

1514
01:37:45,420 --> 01:37:47,430
me. And it came up recently,
again, with the Muller

1515
01:37:47,430 --> 01:37:51,810
investigation. You know, 10,
year term limit was set on the

1516
01:37:51,810 --> 01:37:54,990
director of FBI for a very
specific reason it was so we

1517
01:37:54,990 --> 01:37:57,690
wouldn't have another J. Edgar
Hoover, and so that, you know,

1518
01:37:57,690 --> 01:38:00,660
power could transition and no
one can become, you know, the

1519
01:38:00,660 --> 01:38:05,460
kingpin again. And yeah, they
extended Mueller's tenure by two

1520
01:38:05,460 --> 01:38:10,650
years. You know, the force,
obviously for to cover something

1521
01:38:10,650 --> 01:38:11,010
up?

1522
01:38:11,700 --> 01:38:15,930
Well, look, once you commit the
crimes he committed, it's just a

1523
01:38:15,930 --> 01:38:21,270
constant series of lies and
rationalizations. With Muller. I

1524
01:38:21,270 --> 01:38:25,050
mean, he was appointed a day
before two days before 911. Give

1525
01:38:25,050 --> 01:38:29,730
me a break. Mueller had a great
history as a war veteran in

1526
01:38:29,730 --> 01:38:33,570
Vietnam, and really did well.
And then he blew it. And he

1527
01:38:33,570 --> 01:38:36,750
thought that as a was coming out
of Princeton, or wherever he

1528
01:38:36,750 --> 01:38:39,480
came out, and he thought he
could ride the high, the high

1529
01:38:39,480 --> 01:38:42,570
ground and the bushes to
guarantee him that neither one

1530
01:38:42,570 --> 01:38:43,110
was true.

1531
01:38:43,140 --> 01:38:46,980
So why why would he step into
this arena again, does he have

1532
01:38:46,980 --> 01:38:47,670
some validity,

1533
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:52,560
and arrogance, but also the
notion that he was invincible,

1534
01:38:52,650 --> 01:38:56,940
and that he had to correct in
his mind, the malfeasance, he

1535
01:38:56,940 --> 01:39:00,930
created a 911. But in fact, what
he's doing is just repeating it

1536
01:39:00,930 --> 01:39:04,650
again and again. And remember,
in that business, once you're

1537
01:39:04,650 --> 01:39:08,730
vulnerable, any side can
manipulate you. So Muller isn't

1538
01:39:08,940 --> 01:39:12,600
beholden to himself. He has,
he's not a man of integrity.

1539
01:39:12,870 --> 01:39:16,410
He's a man who has to prostitute
himself either to the bushes to

1540
01:39:16,410 --> 01:39:20,520
the Trump's, or to the Clintons.
And in the world of the law, you

1541
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:24,570
know, that's basically what they
think is is fine. I mean, they

1542
01:39:24,570 --> 01:39:28,440
can rationalize it. But in my
world, in the world of medicine,

1543
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:31,440
we would have fired him a long
time ago for malpractice.

1544
01:39:32,039 --> 01:39:35,639
When I met you, Steve, which was
a viewer, we were both guests on

1545
01:39:35,639 --> 01:39:39,569
the Alex Jones Show. And, you
know, we talked for a little

1546
01:39:39,569 --> 01:39:48,569
bit, you know, it's what you do
now is this. Well, let me put it

1547
01:39:48,569 --> 01:39:52,019
let me strike that go back. You
spoke about being under

1548
01:39:52,019 --> 01:39:55,229
continuity of government and how
you are a part of this. So

1549
01:39:55,229 --> 01:39:59,999
there, there does appear to be a
network. And I would say this

1550
01:39:59,999 --> 01:40:02,729
There's multiple networks, but
you have CIA network and you

1551
01:40:02,729 --> 01:40:05,549
have or intelligence services,
and then you have military

1552
01:40:05,549 --> 01:40:09,419
intelligence military. And it
seems almost like a constant

1553
01:40:09,419 --> 01:40:12,689
battle, depending on whoever's
running the president, since

1554
01:40:12,869 --> 01:40:16,319
back to JFK days, you know,
who's really keeping the

1555
01:40:16,319 --> 01:40:19,829
Republic on the rails, which
we've already established really

1556
01:40:19,829 --> 01:40:22,259
doesn't have that much to do
with the president after 100

1557
01:40:22,259 --> 01:40:22,799
days?

1558
01:40:23,550 --> 01:40:27,330
Or that's a good question. I
don't want to promote myself say

1559
01:40:27,330 --> 01:40:30,840
that I'm essential to that I'm
not a basically because I've

1560
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:35,610
been around he is what makes it
unusual, from my point of view

1561
01:40:35,610 --> 01:40:39,180
and unusual from the
intelligence community. As I

1562
01:40:39,180 --> 01:40:43,170
said, the agency was very nice
to me, EMI has always been nice

1563
01:40:43,170 --> 01:40:46,770
to me. I mean, literally, when I
say that, and and when I was

1564
01:40:46,770 --> 01:40:51,360
promoted to an O six, or a Navy
captain or Colonel. And then I

1565
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:57,540
was promoted to 39 years old 207
to two bucks a Rear Admiral, a

1566
01:40:57,540 --> 01:41:01,530
brigadier general, they wanted
me to continue they being the

1567
01:41:01,530 --> 01:41:04,950
system, which was very gracious
for what I had been doing in

1568
01:41:04,950 --> 01:41:09,690
different areas. And, and I said
to them, in a very polite way,

1569
01:41:09,690 --> 01:41:13,710
gentlemen, I didn't come from
Cuba, to the United States to

1570
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:17,670
wear a uniform or to wear
strikes on my chest, or I have a

1571
01:41:17,670 --> 01:41:23,310
fruit salad. Really, I came here
to screw up. And and I really

1572
01:41:23,310 --> 01:41:26,490
enjoy this country, and I want
to make mistakes. And I'm a

1573
01:41:26,490 --> 01:41:29,670
physician. But I'd like to do
businesses. And I'd like to do

1574
01:41:29,670 --> 01:41:34,770
things I do. But not only was,
in a way, it was arrogant, but

1575
01:41:34,770 --> 01:41:37,350
it wasn't arrogant. I was saying
to them, I don't want your

1576
01:41:37,350 --> 01:41:40,920
money. I don't want the pension,
I don't really need the uniform.

1577
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:44,670
And I don't need the metals. And
it wasn't that was deprecating.

1578
01:41:44,670 --> 01:41:49,140
And I just said, I just want to
be what any American is a chance

1579
01:41:49,140 --> 01:41:53,010
to make mistakes, not a chance
to succeed, just a chance to

1580
01:41:53,010 --> 01:41:56,310
make mistakes. And boy, did I
make mistakes. And I was

1581
01:41:56,310 --> 01:42:00,510
grateful for that. And I think
in turn, it's again, what you

1582
01:42:00,510 --> 01:42:04,830
said in the very beginning it it
kind of punctuated very quickly.

1583
01:42:04,830 --> 01:42:08,190
They didn't quite get it until
years later, when they said,

1584
01:42:08,190 --> 01:42:13,410
Well, can we pay you for your
advice? I said, No. Why? I said,

1585
01:42:13,410 --> 01:42:18,000
Well, why would you pay me I'm
more than happy to help you. You

1586
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,270
control me basically? Well, not
only you control me, that's

1587
01:42:21,270 --> 01:42:24,240
correct. But the other issue
was, you know, I'm really

1588
01:42:24,240 --> 01:42:27,510
grateful for what I received in
this country, or what I was able

1589
01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:31,350
to get I got an education, I was
able to serve the country, I was

1590
01:42:31,350 --> 01:42:36,360
able to do businesses, I was
able to fail many times. And you

1591
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:40,950
know, that, to me was sufficient
and necessary to just remain,

1592
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:44,100
you know, part or parcel or
indirectly, part of the

1593
01:42:44,100 --> 01:42:48,900
Republic. And I said, Look, my
loyalty is not to the presidency

1594
01:42:48,900 --> 01:42:52,440
as much as it is to the
Republic, because it constitutes

1595
01:42:52,440 --> 01:42:57,690
a far greater entity than any
presidency. And so when you when

1596
01:42:57,690 --> 01:43:01,500
you look at a country that's as
large as ours and as diversified

1597
01:43:01,500 --> 01:43:04,710
as ours, you really begin to
appreciate it particularly

1598
01:43:04,710 --> 01:43:08,850
having come out of France or
Europe, or Cuba, where it's much

1599
01:43:08,850 --> 01:43:11,520
more narrow. So it was nothing
noble, it was just simply

1600
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:15,270
something I said, Hey, give me a
chance to screw up guys. Thank

1601
01:43:15,270 --> 01:43:15,330
you.

1602
01:43:15,390 --> 01:43:21,210
So you mentioned earlier, the
military coup is inevitable.

1603
01:43:21,570 --> 01:43:24,360
Hasn't that actually kind of
happened already in this

1604
01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:25,110
presidency?

1605
01:43:27,360 --> 01:43:30,510
Would you repeat that? Again?
Would you with with the right

1606
01:43:30,510 --> 01:43:35,100
emphasis? You mean that we have
generals around one president?

1607
01:43:35,130 --> 01:43:43,260
Yeah. I would say that would be
you wouldn't be wrong. Okay. But

1608
01:43:43,290 --> 01:43:47,220
the difference here is that the
generals are placed there in

1609
01:43:47,220 --> 01:43:52,650
order to maintain the continuity
of the Republic, and in fact, to

1610
01:43:52,650 --> 01:43:56,790
terminate certain wars, and one
of the wars that they did

1611
01:43:56,790 --> 01:44:01,110
terminate, and nothing nobody's
ever talked about, um, shock. Is

1612
01:44:01,140 --> 01:44:03,210
ISIS. Now they've eliminated

1613
01:44:03,510 --> 01:44:06,990
well, they, I guess they just
turned off the CIA spigot and it

1614
01:44:06,990 --> 01:44:07,470
ended.

1615
01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:12,750
Well, that was part of it. But
yeah, that's part of, yes, the

1616
01:44:12,750 --> 01:44:16,290
Hillary Clinton portray us and
others, Brad, but that was one

1617
01:44:16,290 --> 01:44:20,880
part. But the second part was
the Syrian army, the we were

1618
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:24,630
defeated, and we accepted it.
And now the words the special

1619
01:44:24,630 --> 01:44:28,140
forces or generals accepted it,
and we didn't make a big point

1620
01:44:28,140 --> 01:44:32,430
about it. But at the same time,
we didn't need to overthrow

1621
01:44:32,430 --> 01:44:37,560
again, the CIA, this concept of
overthrowing Bashar Assad. And

1622
01:44:37,560 --> 01:44:41,040
now in turn, they want to go
into Afghanistan. I think that's

1623
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:43,740
a mistake. They know, I know
it's a mistake. It's a

1624
01:44:43,740 --> 01:44:45,630
recapitulation of what happened.
And

1625
01:44:45,630 --> 01:44:49,920
is this again, just stupidity
and arrogance, or is this for

1626
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:51,420
more geopolitical reasons?

1627
01:44:51,930 --> 01:44:55,500
I don't think it's geopolitical
as much as it is a dereliction

1628
01:44:55,500 --> 01:44:59,520
of duty. McMaster wrote about it
in Vietnam and now they want to

1629
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:02,610
go back Get in and try the very
same things that didn't work in

1630
01:45:02,610 --> 01:45:06,810
Vietnam or a form and, you know,
heart win the hearts and minds

1631
01:45:06,810 --> 01:45:10,350
absolute nonsense. I mean,
Afghanistan is barely a country,

1632
01:45:10,740 --> 01:45:14,370
it's totally corrupt will always
be corrupt. The military is

1633
01:45:14,370 --> 01:45:18,330
corrupt, the police is corrupt.
A only one who's ever talked

1634
01:45:18,330 --> 01:45:21,390
about Afghanistan was another
neocon who never served this.

1635
01:45:21,390 --> 01:45:25,230
And that was Zalmay follows ads.
So it's a waste of time, it

1636
01:45:25,230 --> 01:45:29,460
would be criminal for them to go
back in literally criminal, but

1637
01:45:29,490 --> 01:45:36,210
they will do it. So any happy
notes you want me to say?

1638
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:41,160
No, no, no, no, no. No, with
your knowledge of human behavior

1639
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:44,670
with your knowledge of how the
sausage is really made? How it

1640
01:45:44,700 --> 01:45:48,510
how everything works under the
hood? Where do we go from here,

1641
01:45:48,510 --> 01:45:53,130
you must be very concerned about
the state of the Republic, not

1642
01:45:53,130 --> 01:45:57,480
just how the system is running,
but about the citizens

1643
01:45:57,480 --> 01:45:58,230
themselves?

1644
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:03,120
Where are we gone through here?
It's not optimistic for me. I

1645
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:06,090
mean, I would like to say we're
doing very well, unfortunately,

1646
01:46:06,090 --> 01:46:09,390
I spent time with some school
teachers recently. And they are

1647
01:46:09,390 --> 01:46:13,020
saying we're getting a dumbing
down of the classes. That's

1648
01:46:13,050 --> 01:46:18,510
very, very bad. We need an
education system that is the

1649
01:46:18,510 --> 01:46:24,120
equivalent to what the Chinese
have. And when Shanghai grade

1650
01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:29,760
students out, perform 200 other
countries including us, in

1651
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:35,310
mathematics, and in writing,
it's a very bad sign. And right

1652
01:46:35,310 --> 01:46:41,010
now, our academia is in trouble.
I mean, it's so self assured and

1653
01:46:41,010 --> 01:46:44,850
self congratulatory. We have too
many professors who aren't

1654
01:46:44,850 --> 01:46:49,230
tenure, too many professors who
are not relevant. Academia in

1655
01:46:49,230 --> 01:46:53,160
many ways has become irrelevant
in certain ways. So what they do

1656
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:57,570
is rationalize their existence
by sending all kinds of

1657
01:46:57,570 --> 01:47:01,110
nonsensical magazines back to me
to tell me how great they are.

1658
01:47:01,500 --> 01:47:05,730
But in turn, I watched China,
and I see presidents eg Pong,

1659
01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:11,700
assume the leadership of both
the Communist Party and the

1660
01:47:11,700 --> 01:47:15,390
nation. And what he's determined
to do. And I think he's made two

1661
01:47:15,390 --> 01:47:19,170
mistakes. One, he's tried to cut
off the internet, that's a

1662
01:47:19,170 --> 01:47:23,460
major, major mistake for GG
pawn. And the second one, he's

1663
01:47:23,460 --> 01:47:27,030
tried to cut off the fast loans.
So the money loans that are

1664
01:47:27,030 --> 01:47:30,900
required to the middle class to
have money. And that's a major

1665
01:47:30,900 --> 01:47:36,570
mistake. But what he has not
made a mistake. And he ordered a

1666
01:47:36,570 --> 01:47:41,220
400 mile railroad from Djibouti
to Ethiopia. And what do we have

1667
01:47:41,220 --> 01:47:45,660
in Djibouti, we had our drone
base 1000s, we have a drone base

1668
01:47:45,660 --> 01:47:49,170
and 8000 soldiers, so we're
totally mismatched for the

1669
01:47:49,170 --> 01:47:52,770
future. We're not looking at the
future in the right way. We're

1670
01:47:52,770 --> 01:47:56,400
not concerned about the nature
of jobs in the future, we're not

1671
01:47:56,400 --> 01:48:00,510
talking about the fact that many
jobs will be eliminated. And

1672
01:48:00,510 --> 01:48:05,040
we're really not addressing the
issue of of, we're going from a

1673
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:10,290
digital to a quantum era, which
means we're going 1000 times

1674
01:48:10,290 --> 01:48:13,980
faster than we are right now, in
terms of the internet. And

1675
01:48:13,980 --> 01:48:17,190
that's mind blowing. That is
basically what we call a

1676
01:48:17,190 --> 01:48:20,700
paradigm shift. And neither
party has addressed it, the

1677
01:48:20,700 --> 01:48:24,570
leadership hasn't addressed it.
And what we're wasting is little

1678
01:48:24,570 --> 01:48:28,230
people fighting little wars for
nothing, I mean, and wasting our

1679
01:48:28,230 --> 01:48:32,550
money. Meanwhile, she is gone
all the way through Laos,

1680
01:48:32,580 --> 01:48:36,540
Vietnam, he controls the Mekong
Delta controls a lot of the

1681
01:48:36,540 --> 01:48:40,290
waterways and China's not
looking for war. Even though we

1682
01:48:40,290 --> 01:48:43,530
have 100 bases around China,
they're really not relevant.

1683
01:48:43,620 --> 01:48:46,110
What do you find your experience
with the Chinese? Have you ever

1684
01:48:46,110 --> 01:48:48,690
negotiated with them? Do you
know that drives them?

1685
01:48:48,750 --> 01:48:52,380
Yeah, yes, very much. I have
negotiated and actually created

1686
01:48:52,380 --> 01:48:56,790
a format for negotiations with
the Chinese. The most important

1687
01:48:56,790 --> 01:48:59,970
element for the Chinese
negotiations, what we call they

1688
01:48:59,970 --> 01:49:04,440
call Guan chi, qu a and xi.
That's the personal relationship

1689
01:49:04,440 --> 01:49:08,190
between the individual and the
other individual it can, it

1690
01:49:08,190 --> 01:49:12,840
occurs more often than not over
meals in and ironically, most of

1691
01:49:12,840 --> 01:49:16,380
our senior officials really
never understood how important

1692
01:49:16,380 --> 01:49:19,950
the Chinese meal is, which is
seven, eight courses. And as

1693
01:49:19,950 --> 01:49:23,280
well as the drinking that come
by, and all of that that's where

1694
01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:27,000
you develop the relationship.
And then the Chinese at the end

1695
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:30,450
will say to you, oh, no, no, no,
we can't agree with you. And

1696
01:49:30,450 --> 01:49:33,390
then as you just boarding the
plane, they'll say, oh, one

1697
01:49:33,390 --> 01:49:38,190
minute, so you have to really be
knowledgeable about the Chinese

1698
01:49:38,220 --> 01:49:41,730
national character, which hasn't
changed all that much. Even

1699
01:49:41,730 --> 01:49:45,480
under President Xi. He assumed
what was called article 79. I

1700
01:49:45,480 --> 01:49:49,110
knew he would take over the both
parties, the party and the

1701
01:49:49,110 --> 01:49:53,580
nation state. Because unlike our
leaders, she had one

1702
01:49:53,580 --> 01:49:57,030
characteristic and I used to say
it to the Chinese beforehand,

1703
01:49:57,420 --> 01:50:00,420
when there was who Jintao and
other leaders who were not In

1704
01:50:00,420 --> 01:50:04,110
the Cultural Revolution, I said
you will need a leader who has

1705
01:50:04,110 --> 01:50:07,740
been debased by the Cultural
Revolution and at the same time

1706
01:50:07,740 --> 01:50:12,750
be the present princeling of
famous Chinese communist leader.

1707
01:50:12,780 --> 01:50:18,090
And that leader turned out to be
Gee, she had suffered a major,

1708
01:50:18,090 --> 01:50:22,440
major humiliation under the
Cultural Revolution, as well as

1709
01:50:22,440 --> 01:50:26,220
his father who was arrested
twice. But despite that, and you

1710
01:50:26,220 --> 01:50:30,060
can imagine what kind of
character he must have to absorb

1711
01:50:30,060 --> 01:50:34,770
the humiliation and redirect it
into a positive attitude, then

1712
01:50:34,770 --> 01:50:38,640
I'm going to climb again, the
Chinese ladder on the Bala

1713
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:42,570
Politburo and become a leader,
you have to have an internal

1714
01:50:42,570 --> 01:50:47,100
drive and a discipline that we
don't have here. And that's why

1715
01:50:47,100 --> 01:50:50,520
I can respect President Xi and
what he's doing. He's not

1716
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:53,520
looking to win wars. He's not
even looking to have

1717
01:50:53,520 --> 01:50:57,570
confrontations with us or the
Russians. He wants to do exactly

1718
01:50:57,570 --> 01:51:00,450
what the Dutch did, then, you
know, better than i in the 16th

1719
01:51:00,450 --> 01:51:04,500
century, God trade with
everybody. Correct. And he has

1720
01:51:04,500 --> 01:51:08,100
effectively gone all over the
world to trade with everybody.

1721
01:51:08,400 --> 01:51:11,880
He has a problem, he has to
balance out his economy, which

1722
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:16,110
is heavily dependent on credit
and debt. But I think she will

1723
01:51:16,110 --> 01:51:19,230
do that. But he has to back off
from the internet, he has to

1724
01:51:19,230 --> 01:51:22,530
back off from all of those
things that he thinks are an

1725
01:51:22,530 --> 01:51:26,040
eternal problem to him, which
they're not as the bar.

1726
01:51:26,130 --> 01:51:28,740
Go ahead. No, no, please, please
continue finish up here.

1727
01:51:28,830 --> 01:51:33,840
Boy Heath represses or thinks he
suppresses the the the Chinese,

1728
01:51:34,410 --> 01:51:38,160
a student, the more problems he
will have, he doesn't need to

1729
01:51:38,790 --> 01:51:43,590
close Momo or any other of the
other companies, he doesn't need

1730
01:51:43,590 --> 01:51:48,300
to have control over the loan
companies, that's not going to

1731
01:51:48,300 --> 01:51:52,200
help them. What's going to help
them is that he can mobilize the

1732
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:55,260
young people and send them out
just as he's doing now to the

1733
01:51:55,260 --> 01:51:59,070
United States to Europe and let
them integrate. Okay, so

1734
01:51:59,730 --> 01:52:04,080
then I definitely want to come
back to, to to China, because

1735
01:52:04,110 --> 01:52:06,510
it's fascinating to me, when I
see the you know, they're

1736
01:52:06,510 --> 01:52:11,580
Economic Belt, they're the
actual, the train. So it's One

1737
01:52:11,580 --> 01:52:14,160
Belt, One Road initiative, which
is kind of funny, because it's

1738
01:52:14,190 --> 01:52:17,340
there's pretty much three belts,
no roads, it's all trains

1739
01:52:17,340 --> 01:52:20,040
anyway, they got the maritime
routes, they have all of this,

1740
01:52:20,190 --> 01:52:23,670
but your say something very
important. Where should he not

1741
01:52:23,850 --> 01:52:28,740
restrict the internet? And send
the young people out? Why can't

1742
01:52:28,740 --> 01:52:30,150
we do that here?

1743
01:52:32,130 --> 01:52:35,370
It's a good question, Adam,
you'd have to answer that, and

1744
01:52:35,370 --> 01:52:37,980
others would have to answer
basically, we don't have the

1745
01:52:37,980 --> 01:52:41,790
same culture. And we don't have
the same discipline. We are a

1746
01:52:41,790 --> 01:52:47,010
nation that has been spoiled for
probably the past 50 to 60

1747
01:52:47,010 --> 01:52:51,720
years. We believe in
entrepreneurship yet, you know,

1748
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:55,110
you see these startups. And then
when you get these startups, you

1749
01:52:55,110 --> 01:52:58,830
have companies that are totally
blown out of proportion, that

1750
01:52:58,830 --> 01:53:02,100
have no relationship to their
real value. I mean, when you

1751
01:53:02,100 --> 01:53:06,060
look at Amazon and Google, and
they really don't make that kind

1752
01:53:06,060 --> 01:53:09,810
of money, and you look at Google
type, controlling what I'm doing

1753
01:53:09,810 --> 01:53:13,620
or saying how much I'm making,
or D monetizing me, you're

1754
01:53:13,620 --> 01:53:17,340
getting a fascist organization,
you're getting institutions that

1755
01:53:17,340 --> 01:53:20,430
have no relevancy to the day to
day problem, the ad, on the

1756
01:53:20,430 --> 01:53:23,190
other hand, they controlling it
or think that controlling it,

1757
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:26,640
and what they're going to do,
they will they'll implode, it's

1758
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:30,390
easy for guys like me and others
to make them implode. It's not

1759
01:53:30,390 --> 01:53:34,260
hard, you have Amazon that's
taken over the grocery stores

1760
01:53:34,260 --> 01:53:38,100
and they want pharmacy, big,
big, bigger and without any

1761
01:53:38,100 --> 01:53:42,090
relevancy to really what the
basic values are, and what are

1762
01:53:42,090 --> 01:53:46,290
the inherent net asset values of
what they're doing. When we're

1763
01:53:46,290 --> 01:53:49,860
evaluating companies in the
biotech area, they make no money

1764
01:53:50,250 --> 01:53:53,700
and our value to millions of
dollars, or hundreds of millions

1765
01:53:53,700 --> 01:53:56,640
or billions. So a billion when
you say to somebody who's making

1766
01:53:56,640 --> 01:54:00,990
a billion dollars, it means
nothing. It's just paper. So

1767
01:54:00,990 --> 01:54:04,890
we've lost the inherent value of
what our work ethic is about.

1768
01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:08,550
Doesn't that doesn't that just
prove that capitalism has a very

1769
01:54:08,550 --> 01:54:10,020
dark downside?

1770
01:54:10,890 --> 01:54:14,550
Well, we're not in capitalism
anymore. Well, we are in no, no,

1771
01:54:14,550 --> 01:54:18,150
no, I think you're right in that
we are really into what's called

1772
01:54:18,150 --> 01:54:22,200
crony capitalism, which isn't
the same, the entrepreneurial

1773
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:27,180
spirit that we had in the 1900s.
And then in the beginning of the

1774
01:54:28,230 --> 01:54:30,930
beginning and the end of the
19th century, in the beginning

1775
01:54:30,930 --> 01:54:35,190
of the 20th century, that's been
lost. What's happening now it's

1776
01:54:35,190 --> 01:54:38,730
becoming almost a travesty a
bunch of kids get together. They

1777
01:54:38,730 --> 01:54:42,360
get funded when I started angel
investing or means the initial

1778
01:54:42,360 --> 01:54:46,110
investment into companies that
was 2030 years ago, we put in a

1779
01:54:46,110 --> 01:54:49,080
couple of 1000 bucks and we put
our sweat equity in it. And it

1780
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:53,490
was a bunch of us guys sitting
around in Northern Virginia. And

1781
01:54:53,520 --> 01:54:56,220
you know, we decided this
company or that company right

1782
01:54:56,220 --> 01:55:00,210
now, if you walk across the
street from Google, and you Go

1783
01:55:00,210 --> 01:55:05,040
to a startup that that person
walk across the street is valued

1784
01:55:05,040 --> 01:55:08,940
at $2 billion. So the net asset
value of a company before it

1785
01:55:08,940 --> 01:55:12,780
even makes any penny is already
absurd and obscene. And so

1786
01:55:12,780 --> 01:55:15,990
eventually you get companies
that produce nothing, do

1787
01:55:15,990 --> 01:55:19,800
nothing, and then become an
extension of Yeah, well, we have

1788
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:23,070
a greater extension and
penetration. I remember when I

1789
01:55:23,070 --> 01:55:26,880
had my last company, which was a
nutraceutical company, and

1790
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:31,260
Google came around to us, and
we're virtual in Montana, and

1791
01:55:31,260 --> 01:55:34,290
said, Oh, we can't use these
words. And if we want to use the

1792
01:55:34,290 --> 01:55:37,350
words, other words, we have to
pay more. And I said, Who the

1793
01:55:37,350 --> 01:55:41,100
hell do you think you are? Now
Google 10 years later is telling

1794
01:55:41,100 --> 01:55:43,800
me oh, we're going to de
monetize you. So when I called

1795
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,650
up guys who are involved in
Google, they said to me, it's

1796
01:55:46,650 --> 01:55:50,610
part of an algorithm I said,
bullshit. It's part of greed,

1797
01:55:50,610 --> 01:55:53,940
and it's part of your own self
destructiveness. Google was

1798
01:55:53,940 --> 01:55:58,230
created by bunt to Jews out of
out of Stanford who I knew about

1799
01:55:58,410 --> 01:56:01,410
one who came out of the Soviet
Union, but had I not worked on

1800
01:56:01,410 --> 01:56:04,260
the SOTA unit, he wouldn't have
been here. So what is he doing?

1801
01:56:04,260 --> 01:56:08,160
Now he's flying around in planes
and goes to the Bahamas, he

1802
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:12,300
became exactly the spoiled baby
that most of these guys are.

1803
01:56:12,540 --> 01:56:15,990
Whereas you and I, and others
who are in the 60s 70s, were

1804
01:56:15,990 --> 01:56:16,710
still hustling,

1805
01:56:16,770 --> 01:56:19,530
they still they pretty much
became what they fought against

1806
01:56:19,530 --> 01:56:20,400
their entire life.

1807
01:56:20,430 --> 01:56:23,910
Exactly. They became the
entitled spoiled brats. And you

1808
01:56:23,910 --> 01:56:27,900
see that in Silicon Valley, you
see that in Hollywood, you see

1809
01:56:27,900 --> 01:56:31,800
that in a lot of places. That's
why in the rural south, and

1810
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:35,340
elsewhere in the Midwest, and in
Texas, you see a different

1811
01:56:35,370 --> 01:56:39,210
attitude or Elan Vitara.
Basically, people here want to

1812
01:56:39,210 --> 01:56:42,450
work, they want to create their
own little business. We're

1813
01:56:42,450 --> 01:56:45,930
coming to the point where let me
get to this issue, if you don't

1814
01:56:45,930 --> 01:56:49,920
mind. No, I go to Steve, as long
as you wish. You don't mind my

1815
01:56:49,920 --> 01:56:50,880
riffing on this

1816
01:56:51,960 --> 01:56:53,520
entire reason I called you

1817
01:56:54,060 --> 01:56:59,220
all You're so sweet. And I like
you. This whole issue of net

1818
01:56:59,220 --> 01:57:02,640
neutrality was just busted two
days ago, that is one of the

1819
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:06,690
biggest mistakes. And you're
very nice. Engineer here, Tom

1820
01:57:06,690 --> 01:57:10,560
and I nodding our head because
what didn't happen, what in fact

1821
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:15,060
has happened is we've destroyed
the net. And to allow Comcast

1822
01:57:15,060 --> 01:57:19,380
and AT and T to take over the
net is to cut our own throats

1823
01:57:19,380 --> 01:57:24,360
because they're going to charge
us a premiere $1 for access to

1824
01:57:24,360 --> 01:57:27,360
the net, which didn't belong to
them. And at the same time, on

1825
01:57:27,360 --> 01:57:30,690
the other side, I've got Google
and Apple and Facebook saying,

1826
01:57:30,780 --> 01:57:34,140
oh, we can't have that we need
net neutrality, when in fact,

1827
01:57:34,140 --> 01:57:38,640
they never had net neutrality.
So we have this issue coming in,

1828
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:43,200
and the FCC incorrectly said,
we're not going to monitor the

1829
01:57:43,200 --> 01:57:44,490
net. That's absurd.

1830
01:57:45,210 --> 01:57:50,340
I'm gonna push back a little bit
on that. Go ahead. Because I,

1831
01:57:50,760 --> 01:57:54,390
having been around when the
commercial Internet was, was

1832
01:57:54,390 --> 01:57:58,320
being shaped and how peering
agreements work, and how traffic

1833
01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:04,920
flows, and it was kind of a
karmic democratic system, of

1834
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:08,490
fairness of I give you this much
traffic, I'll take this from

1835
01:58:08,490 --> 01:58:12,660
you. We'll all and by the way,
it's Google and it is Amazon.

1836
01:58:12,660 --> 01:58:15,240
It's all in it's Netflix,
although they've withdrawn

1837
01:58:15,240 --> 01:58:17,580
somewhat, because they've
already figured it out. And you

1838
01:58:17,580 --> 01:58:19,950
know that, oh, fuck it, we'll
just put our boxes inside the

1839
01:58:19,950 --> 01:58:22,260
networks, we don't have to deal
with the peering and getting

1840
01:58:22,260 --> 01:58:26,610
stuff off the internet. So you
know that that was already

1841
01:58:26,610 --> 01:58:32,010
broken, to a certain extent. But
the regulations that are being

1842
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:36,660
once you regulate the internet,
then it's over, then no, because

1843
01:58:36,660 --> 01:58:41,550
they're talking about illegal
traffic, illegal content. So

1844
01:58:41,580 --> 01:58:43,680
there will be all of these
rules, which will now be

1845
01:58:43,680 --> 01:58:49,320
cemented, which I think actually
gives the power to the, to the

1846
01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:52,980
telcos. It gives them the power
to turn stuff off based upon,

1847
01:58:53,370 --> 01:58:57,330
you know, some very ill defined
terms such as illegal network

1848
01:58:57,330 --> 01:59:00,120
traffic, which could be it could
be peer to peer that could be

1849
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:03,960
deemed illegal. It could be
Bitcoin blockchain traffic that

1850
01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:06,630
could be deemed illegal. I think
that's worse.

1851
01:59:07,260 --> 01:59:10,320
I think you're very articulate.
I understand what you're saying.

1852
01:59:10,350 --> 01:59:16,350
But that my point is this is
what basically I'm looking at is

1853
01:59:16,350 --> 01:59:20,070
the Real Net Neutrality was
there before we had Google and

1854
01:59:20,070 --> 01:59:22,920
Amazon in any of those
companies. That's really what I

1855
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:26,190
was talking about. Yes. The
reason why I was talking about

1856
01:59:26,190 --> 01:59:29,580
net neutrality, not as the fine
now which you're correct data.

1857
01:59:30,270 --> 01:59:34,440
I'm talking about net neutrality
when I was trained in 1970s on

1858
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:38,250
the internet and social media, I
don't remember that Facebook or

1859
01:59:38,250 --> 01:59:43,260
Google or any one of these self
aggrandizing idiots created the

1860
01:59:43,260 --> 01:59:45,900
internet when it was DARPA and
the agency right

1861
01:59:45,900 --> 01:59:48,510
but now, but now we're coming
right into your field, Steve,

1862
01:59:48,510 --> 01:59:54,330
because what has happened is
through I still believe mistake,

1863
01:59:54,360 --> 01:59:58,710
but was understood very quickly
through the Pavlovian system of

1864
01:59:58,710 --> 02:00:02,760
rewards with the views and likes
and engagement, et cetera, et

1865
02:00:02,760 --> 02:00:06,600
cetera. People have been
suckered into it. And don't even

1866
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:09,990
realize that they have the power
literally with the click of a

1867
02:00:09,990 --> 02:00:13,920
mouse, to be to start something
different to be in a different

1868
02:00:13,920 --> 02:00:16,710
realm and not participate in
this so called Internet.

1869
02:00:17,400 --> 02:00:21,150
Well, they could do that. But my
point is that we need a paradigm

1870
02:00:21,150 --> 02:00:25,080
shift away from this internet
and break up Google and Apple

1871
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:29,280
and the rest, because they
really don't. What they're doing

1872
02:00:29,280 --> 02:00:34,020
is changing the dynamics of what
we have, but not allowing for

1873
02:00:34,050 --> 02:00:38,280
what I would create paradigm
shifts. I don't see the paradigm

1874
02:00:38,280 --> 02:00:41,970
shifts right now, I think
quantum will be a major paradigm

1875
02:00:41,970 --> 02:00:47,040
shift, for example. But when I
was asked, what is the most

1876
02:00:47,610 --> 02:00:50,070
severe problem we have in the
Internet and the covert

1877
02:00:50,070 --> 02:00:54,360
industry? Well, you'd have
quantum encryption, they don't

1878
02:00:54,360 --> 02:00:58,590
know how to do that. And so when
you have quantum encryption,

1879
02:00:58,620 --> 02:01:02,850
there aren't many companies that
do that. And instead, we have

1880
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:06,960
all kinds of antivirus and
antivirus companies. And all of

1881
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:11,400
that is nonsense. Because you
and I saw a week ago, and nobody

1882
02:01:11,400 --> 02:01:16,560
said anything the NSA imploded.
Yeah, it was it imploded. Nobody

1883
02:01:16,560 --> 02:01:21,750
said a word 100,000. So called
geniuses, destroyed themselves.

1884
02:01:21,750 --> 02:01:25,230
And that's what I had predicted
that eventually they would have

1885
02:01:25,230 --> 02:01:27,960
their own destruction in there.
And they don't know what to do.

1886
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:31,770
yet. We're spending billions of
dollars to create absolutely

1887
02:01:31,770 --> 02:01:36,600
nothing to monitor nothing, and
to be vulnerable to any hacker

1888
02:01:36,600 --> 02:01:40,620
from God knows where. And but
nobody said a word. And instead,

1889
02:01:40,620 --> 02:01:43,830
they're interested about sexual
harassment, as opposed to the

1890
02:01:43,830 --> 02:01:48,930
NSA. So it tells me there is a
distraction, denial and

1891
02:01:48,930 --> 02:01:49,710
distortion, you

1892
02:01:49,710 --> 02:01:53,550
know, totally, totally. But what
to do about it. I'm not saying

1893
02:01:53,550 --> 02:01:56,460
you have answers, but you do
have more insight into the

1894
02:01:56,460 --> 02:01:59,220
masses and how psyche works. And
what is how

1895
02:01:59,850 --> 02:02:03,270
I'm a little bit more primitive
than that, I believe in firing

1896
02:02:03,270 --> 02:02:06,570
people. And that's what I was
hired to do. I was brought in

1897
02:02:06,570 --> 02:02:07,650
and we just fired them,

1898
02:02:07,680 --> 02:02:11,520
which is exactly the problem
today, there is no firing, we

1899
02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:14,310
can't make no sad or triggered
or unhappy,

1900
02:02:14,610 --> 02:02:17,670
correct. You hit it on the head.
And that's what I said, What you

1901
02:02:17,670 --> 02:02:19,770
need is a sweeper. And I've said
that in the Trump

1902
02:02:19,770 --> 02:02:22,590
administration, I've said that
in every administration, that's

1903
02:02:22,590 --> 02:02:25,770
what I was brought in for you
clean him up, you leave. He

1904
02:02:25,770 --> 02:02:28,440
said, you don't say goodbye, and
you don't. And that's it. You

1905
02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:32,640
don't take a position. He won't
do that. And unfortunately, as a

1906
02:02:32,640 --> 02:02:36,390
businessman, I thought he would
have the capacity to clean sweep

1907
02:02:36,420 --> 02:02:37,140
or sweep.

1908
02:02:37,890 --> 02:02:41,160
He is the you're fired guy the
drain the swamp guy?

1909
02:02:41,670 --> 02:02:44,700
Well, you know, it's very nice
to say drain the swamp, it's a

1910
02:02:44,700 --> 02:02:47,730
lot harder to go up to somebody
and say, Okay, you're fired,

1911
02:02:47,730 --> 02:02:50,370
you're fired, you're fired. I
mean, right across the board.

1912
02:02:50,520 --> 02:02:53,340
Same thing in the military. I
mean, we're wasting over 100

1913
02:02:53,340 --> 02:02:56,790
billion just on administrative
issues, this should be a

1914
02:02:56,820 --> 02:03:01,260
takedown of a lot of the
programs, we don't need more jet

1915
02:03:01,260 --> 02:03:04,350
fighters, we don't know, we
don't need an aircraft carrier.

1916
02:03:04,350 --> 02:03:06,600
I mean, I can take out an
aircraft carrier when an extra

1917
02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:10,230
set missile that was done in the
Falkland Islands 30 years ago,

1918
02:03:10,530 --> 02:03:13,590
what we need to do is deal with
the 21st century and we're not

1919
02:03:13,590 --> 02:03:13,920
there.

1920
02:03:14,220 --> 02:03:18,120
So whether this is random number
theory, or however it happens.

1921
02:03:19,260 --> 02:03:22,680
Here we get, you know, here we
are, we're in this almost like

1922
02:03:22,680 --> 02:03:27,450
an iron, you know, we we are
most connected, most informed

1923
02:03:27,480 --> 02:03:31,350
and most irrational, I think, in
our behavior in the United

1924
02:03:31,350 --> 02:03:35,910
States specifically, is it but
is this coming from an overall

1925
02:03:35,910 --> 02:03:39,330
mission to keep everybody
stupid, and we can go about our

1926
02:03:39,330 --> 02:03:41,820
merry way? You know, that's like
the big there's one big

1927
02:03:41,820 --> 02:03:46,530
conspiracy of people who want to
destroy America, or is it just

1928
02:03:46,530 --> 02:03:47,280
our own doing?

1929
02:03:48,450 --> 02:03:51,810
I don't believe that many. Well,
I talked about conspiracy, but

1930
02:03:51,810 --> 02:03:54,840
I'm not a great conspiracy
theorist. That way, I believe

1931
02:03:54,840 --> 02:03:58,380
that we're just, it's our own
doing, Adam, just what you said.

1932
02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:02,700
It's coming out to the point if
you have an education system,

1933
02:04:02,700 --> 02:04:06,810
that's faltering. And we're
funding that faltering. When you

1934
02:04:06,810 --> 02:04:10,290
have an education system that
works at the lowest levels, when

1935
02:04:10,290 --> 02:04:14,310
you have a medical system that's
basically reinforcing money and

1936
02:04:14,310 --> 02:04:17,460
not care. When you have a
hospital system that's

1937
02:04:17,520 --> 02:04:22,020
reinforcing greed and not care.
When you have a military that's

1938
02:04:22,020 --> 02:04:25,470
really used all over the world
without any strategy and the

1939
02:04:25,470 --> 02:04:30,240
nonsensical retort from generals
is oh, we have terrorists who

1940
02:04:30,240 --> 02:04:33,450
can come to our homeland
bullshit, nonsense. That's

1941
02:04:33,480 --> 02:04:36,870
that's absolute nonsense. There
aren't any terrorists that came

1942
02:04:36,870 --> 02:04:39,960
from Afghanistan and aren't a
terrorist that come from Iran.

1943
02:04:40,230 --> 02:04:44,190
They know it, I know it and what
you have instead, is the

1944
02:04:44,190 --> 02:04:49,080
pervasiveness of KBR and L
three, and all those mercenaries

1945
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:52,170
who want to get out there and
make money. But if you don't

1946
02:04:52,170 --> 02:04:55,710
have a president who can rein it
in or you don't have a leader

1947
02:04:55,710 --> 02:04:59,970
who can rein it in, then we're
going to we will be the product

1948
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:05,220
have our own entitlement and our
own expenditures. And

1949
02:05:05,250 --> 02:05:08,370
unfortunately, I don't believe
Trump can do it. I don't see

1950
02:05:08,370 --> 02:05:12,510
anybody there who can do it. And
quite frankly, most of our

1951
02:05:12,510 --> 02:05:15,960
generals, they are just trying
to keep Trump in position. And

1952
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:19,500
and but I'm not a great believer
that politicians have been a

1953
02:05:19,500 --> 02:05:22,620
great asset to our country, one
of our greatest presidents

1954
02:05:22,620 --> 02:05:27,810
Eisenhower was really not a
politician. He did what he did.

1955
02:05:28,080 --> 02:05:31,200
He didn't look for money he
became our president got us out

1956
02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:34,500
of the wars, and that was the
George Marshall the same thing.

1957
02:05:34,890 --> 02:05:39,000
But we've had nothing but self
aggrandizing, manipulators, all

1958
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:42,300
of whom had some medical problem
or mental problem. If we

1959
02:05:42,300 --> 02:05:45,840
continue on this course, we will
self destruct, I can assure you,

1960
02:05:46,050 --> 02:05:51,960
do you see anyone who would be
lined up for 2020? Who could do

1961
02:05:51,960 --> 02:05:53,520
a better first 100 days?

1962
02:05:55,440 --> 02:06:00,510
Yup. And I don't want to bring
it out right now. Okay. All

1963
02:06:00,510 --> 02:06:02,190
right. There's already put it
this way.

1964
02:06:03,180 --> 02:06:04,860
There's always plans on debts.

1965
02:06:04,860 --> 02:06:08,280
I love that. That's next. That's
for our next talk.

1966
02:06:08,310 --> 02:06:12,630
Well, if you'll do another one
with me, I would greatly

1967
02:06:12,630 --> 02:06:14,430
appreciate that. Adam,

1968
02:06:14,460 --> 02:06:18,060
you guys are amazing. I didn't
realize this was a volunteer

1969
02:06:18,060 --> 02:06:21,120
program. Adam, you should be
proud of that. If you're asking

1970
02:06:21,120 --> 02:06:24,270
me what is the future, then what
you're doing is the future for

1971
02:06:24,270 --> 02:06:28,800
me. You know, people who care
people who do things you are the

1972
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:32,520
future, but we have to break it
through and in turn, what I

1973
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:36,240
believe is probably we're going
to devolve power to the States

1974
02:06:36,240 --> 02:06:39,360
and to the counties and to
people like yourself, who can

1975
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:43,230
create those communities that
are both virtual and real. So I

1976
02:06:43,230 --> 02:06:45,150
want to thank you for this
opportunity.

1977
02:06:47,190 --> 02:06:50,730
Wow, that was a hell of debt is
one long and interesting

1978
02:06:50,730 --> 02:06:52,290
interview. I have to give you
credit for that.

1979
02:06:52,320 --> 02:06:54,930
Thank you. And I think we should
do it more often.

1980
02:06:55,830 --> 02:06:58,560
Yeah, I've got a bunch of people
lined up. I think we should do

1981
02:06:58,560 --> 02:07:02,100
more interviews with it because
they're good. They fit in and

1982
02:07:02,670 --> 02:07:04,950
our thinking is always that
nobody's really listening to the

1983
02:07:04,950 --> 02:07:07,260
show on some of these holidays.
And they'll listen maybe

1984
02:07:07,260 --> 02:07:10,740
sometime in the future, right.
It's not, you know, it's not

1985
02:07:10,740 --> 02:07:14,340
needed that we do a show
probably run over some material

1986
02:07:14,340 --> 02:07:15,360
that should be used as

1987
02:07:16,050 --> 02:07:18,420
a bonus a Christmas present from
us to you.

1988
02:07:19,410 --> 02:07:22,710
Well, at least Yeah. That at
least is worthwhile. That was a

1989
02:07:22,710 --> 02:07:24,480
good interview. i
Congratulations. I'm

1990
02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:27,720
glad you liked it. All right,
everybody. We return on Thursday

1991
02:07:27,720 --> 02:07:31,590
live. I'll be here in FEMA
Region six. John will be in

1992
02:07:31,770 --> 02:07:34,380
northern Silicon Valley. Please
remember us at the

1993
02:07:34,380 --> 02:07:38,370
vortech.org/na and we'll be
listing all of our executive

1994
02:07:38,370 --> 02:07:41,190
producers, producers and thank
yous for both shows until then,

1995
02:07:42,060 --> 02:07:45,720
kind of from Austin, Texas in
the morning, everybody. I'm Adam

1996
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:46,110
curry,

1997
02:07:46,500 --> 02:07:50,160
and live on tape. I'm John C.
Dvorak.

1998
02:07:50,370 --> 02:07:53,580
We'll be back on Thursday right
here on no agenda until then.

1999
02:07:53,640 --> 02:08:27,630
Adios mofos. MOPO
tooborac.org/in a minute.